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Re:SpaceX, T-Mobile to connect satellites to cellphones in r... by fragmede on Thursday August 25, 2022 @09:42PM (#32602371)
Self-driving cars have proven harder than expected, but given the rest of Musk's tale, I wouldn't bet against him. SpaceX is already launching satellites, and Starlink is already providing service. T-mobile owns the frequencies for it, it's "just" a matter of building the satellites and putting them into space. If the claim were more outlandish, it would be harder to buy, but the technology is eminently doable.
Re:SpaceX, T-Mobile to connect satellites to cellphones in r... by DoesntMatter22 on Thursday August 25, 2022 @10:49PM (#32602809)
Self driving is one of the hardest, if not the hardest software problems ever to be solved. I think people underestimate just how challenging the problem is. Must says a lot of stupid stuff but in reality he has delivered on the vast majority of it, though as he says it's not always in the time frame he expects.
Re:SpaceX, T-Mobile to connect satellites to cellphones in r... by itsoktocry on Friday August 26, 2022 @07:52AM (#32606141)
>I think people underestimate just how challenging the problem is

Is this the shifting of the narrative?

"People" aren't underestimating the problem. It's widely known to be an extremely difficult problem.

Musk said he'd have it done by now, and actually sold the technology. People have been skeptical of it for the better part of a decade.

Re:SpaceX, T-Mobile to connect satellites to cellphones in r... by Robotbeat on Friday August 26, 2022 @09:59AM (#32607628)
I remain skeptical Tesla is anywhere near let-the-driver-sleep self driving (except perhaps in tunnels), but I’m very glad they’re trying to do it, and do it at scale for consumer cars, not just company-owned hyper-sensored vehicles that cost as much as a house.

Literally every company working on the problem a decade ago was over-optimistic, but many pursued a strategy that would keep the technology only for company-owned vehicles, which I find less satisfactory. The whole point of personal cars is independence. We already have buses and transit vans if we want mass transit. If you want self-driving to actually save all the lives it supposedly could, it has to be scalable to everyone.

Musk is terminally optimistic on AI generally, including paranoia about AGI. I don’t expect let-the-driver-sleep self driving for a good 10 years, but it’ll be never if no one tries. The technology does not advance by itself.

Re:SpaceX, T-Mobile to connect satellites to cellphones in r... by DoesntMatter22 on Saturday August 27, 2022 @11:46AM (#32620265)
People are already sleeping while the Tesla drives, albeit illegally. Highway driving it seems to do really well, around town though sleeping seems way off.
Re:SpaceX, T-Mobile to connect satellites to cellphones in r... by DoesntMatter22 on Saturday August 27, 2022 @11:45AM (#32620250)
People underestimate it all the time, just because you don't doesn't mean other don't. If you read any forum they talk about how it should have been solved by now.
Re:SpaceX, T-Mobile to connect satellites to cellphones in r... by skydhash on Thursday August 25, 2022 @10:59PM (#32602883)
Wouldn't something like Westworld road system easier? Basically, almost all the cars are self-driven, and it's more like a public transit than anything. Essentially, a closed system. (Easier in the technical sense, not the implementation (politics, ...)).
Re:SpaceX, T-Mobile to connect satellites to cellphones in r... by TaylorAlexander on Thursday August 25, 2022 @11:17PM (#32602981)
Even if that were easier, there’s basically no way to get there without full self driving capable of working around human drivers. The reason why cars are convenient is due to the existing road network, and any deployment of self driving cars is going to have to function on existing road. If you tried to segregate the system, you would have to close some of the existing roads but this would mess with regular people and result in a very small network of pure self driving roads.
Re:SpaceX, T-Mobile to connect satellites to cellphones in r... by wongarsu on Thursday August 25, 2022 @09:54PM (#32602462)
Just a couple days ago they announced that they will also be using Falcon 9 to launch the new Gen2 Starlink satellites, instead of the original plan to launch all of them using the still-in-development Starship. So it seems like Musk is pretty committed to doing this in a reasonable timeline, with smaller technology risk.
Re:SpaceX, T-Mobile to connect satellites to cellphones in r... by jacquesm on Thursday August 25, 2022 @10:21PM (#32602647)
Starship's orbital test may happen somewhere in the next 6 months, so until they succeed with that Falcon 9 is all they have (it's plenty though).
Re:SpaceX, T-Mobile to connect satellites to cellphones in r... by Robotbeat on Friday August 26, 2022 @10:02AM (#32607681)
It could be earlier than that, but they won’t deploy Starlink satellites to a permanent orbit until later flights, so I agree.

And Falcon 9, with droneship landing and fairing recovery now routine, is really a workhorse. Remarkable how much they fly it.

Re:SpaceX, T-Mobile to connect satellites to cellphones in r... by Robotbeat on Friday August 26, 2022 @12:08AM (#32603253)
F9 is the backup plan, but they're still planning to launch within a few months on Starship.

You'll know Starship is about ready to launch after they've completed static fires for both stages.

Re:SpaceX, T-Mobile to connect satellites to cellphones in r... by anonymousiam on Thursday August 25, 2022 @11:23PM (#32603009)
Building and launching them is the easy part.

SpaceX will need to get FCC/ITU approval for the G2 satellites. T-Mobile is seeking agreements with international carriers. I think those are probably required for the proposed system to be viable. Spectrum management bureaucracies in other countries, and opposition from competitors will slow things down. It will require a lot of money to get worldwide operating agreements in place, and some of the money will be bribes to the right people.

Re:SpaceX, T-Mobile to connect satellites to cellphones in r... by extheat on Thursday August 25, 2022 @09:47PM (#32602408)
Yes, I expect this to be one of many announcements going forward, with Amazon Kuiper and OneWeb coming into the party -- eventually. However, SpaceX has the advantage of vertical integration (they launch their own rockets) which substantially helps with costs.
Re:SpaceX, T-Mobile to connect satellites to cellphones in r... by the_duke on Thursday August 25, 2022 @10:02PM (#32602528)
Also the benefit of time. Kuiper hasn't launched anything yet, and all their launchers are still in development - BOs own rocket New Glenn, Arianne 6, and ULA Vulcan. Vulcan probably isn't too far off, 2023, but they will need time to ramp up production. It'll also be a lot more expensive than for SpaceX.

Amazon will probably have to heavily subsidize Kuiper.

I reckon they hope the market is big enough for multiple providers.

Re:SpaceX, T-Mobile to connect satellites to cellphones in r... by solarkraft on Friday August 26, 2022 @04:55AM (#32604838)
Musk has had some failures (FSD, battery replacement, solar roof, satellite laser communication), but also notable successes (supercharger network, landing a rocket).

While this particular idea seems theoretically possible, as far as I know there haven't really been proper tests of it yet. So I could imagine it theoretically working, but being really bad (which may honestly be enough).

There's probably a reason Apple seems to be doing hardware adjustments for their satellite communication.

Re:SpaceX, T-Mobile to connect satellites to cellphones in r... by Cogito on Friday August 26, 2022 @06:32AM (#32605547)
Satellite laser links have been deployed haven't they? And all new satellites going up have the laser links on them, I thought.
Re:SpaceX, T-Mobile to connect satellites to cellphones in r... by panick21_ on Friday August 26, 2022 @09:05PM (#32614524)
Not sure how battery replacement is a failure? They got some money to do it, decided it was not worth doing, so they didn't. I mean that's not really a technological failure, but simple a good business choice.

Laser links exist.

Re:SpaceX, T-Mobile to connect satellites to cellphones in r... by itsoktocry on Friday August 26, 2022 @07:55AM (#32606171)
>Musk has had some failures (FSD, battery replacement, solar roof, satellite laser communication), but also notable successes (supercharger network, landing a rocket).

Yeah, of all the projects of Musk's to be skeptical of, this one seems the most plausible and mundane.

Re:SpaceX, T-Mobile to connect satellites to cellphones in r... by carlivar on Thursday August 25, 2022 @09:57PM (#32602485)
No, self driving cars are as hard as expected.
Re:SpaceX, T-Mobile to connect satellites to cellphones in r... by bottlepalm on Thursday August 25, 2022 @11:07PM (#32602930)
Even in its current state with FSD beta my car drives itself 95% of the time.
Re:SpaceX, T-Mobile to connect satellites to cellphones in r... by kelnos on Thursday August 25, 2022 @11:40PM (#32603104)
I'm not sure what software was present on this random Lyft I took a couple months ago, but I was seated in the front, watching Tesla's infotainment screen the entire ride, which on one side was displaying a sort of wireframe (not the right word, but they weren't realistic drawings) of objects in front of and around the car as we were driving.

I was alarmed to see how often pedestrians, and even cars passing while waiting at a traffic light, would just randomly wink out of existence while still in the car's path, or nearby. Sometimes it would show cars parked at the curb to the sides, and other times nothing, even with our car being the same distance away. And yet somehow at one point it consistently displayed a traffic cone that was on the sidewalk against a building. Didn't really give me much confidence in Tesla's self-driving software if the object detection bits can't even get that right. But again, I don't know what software was running on that car, may not have been the latest-and-greatest.

I don't think I'd trust even the FSD beta to drive my car 95% of the time. Or 1%, even.

Re:SpaceX, T-Mobile to connect satellites to cellphones in r... by epgui on Thursday August 25, 2022 @11:56PM (#32603182)
The display is not a great indicator of what the car "sees". Ideally the display would reassure the passenger, but you could totally solve self driving without solving this UX problem.
Re:SpaceX, T-Mobile to connect satellites to cellphones in r... by bottlepalm on Friday August 26, 2022 @12:03AM (#32603214)
It's a beta so you shouldn't trust it. I'm just saying, I've driven thousands of miles and 95% of the time no issues. The other 5% I almost always know where it will have issues and manually take over before it even gets into a bad situation. A lot of these bad situations I think are easy fixes that will be resolved with future updates. I agree the object recognition is a bit jumpy, but it hasn't really affected the driving afaik, and I'm sure over time that will stabilize. It is really cool Tesla shows you exactly what the car sees. In other self-driving systems the user usually has no idea what the car is seeing. Tesla could do that as well, but this way it is much more honest. I'm looking forward to getting the latest release which is able to recognize the 3d model of unknown objects and avoid them.
Re:SpaceX, T-Mobile to connect satellites to cellphones in r... by itsoktocry on Friday August 26, 2022 @08:01AM (#32606229)
>I've driven thousands of miles and 95% of the time no issues. The other 5% I almost always know where it will have issues and manually take over before it even gets into a bad situation.

This is not Full Self Driving, or remotely close to it. Having to take over for any tricky situation is antithetical to FSD's purpose. Besides the fact that "thousands of miles" is a microscopic scale of driving. That's a vacation for some people.

>A lot of these bad situations I think are easy fixes

Ah yes, easy fixes. Just have to catalog all the "bad" situations!

Re:SpaceX, T-Mobile to connect satellites to cellphones in r... by bottlepalm on Friday August 26, 2022 @10:56AM (#32608349)
Really? I'd say it's 95% there if the car is fully self driving 95% of the time.

Taking over for tricky situations alerts Tesla to those situations and allows them to rank and fix the issue.

1,000's of miles might be nothing, but then multiply it by the tens of thousands of drivers using it everyday and yes Tesla basically is aware of all the tricky situations and is working to resolve them.

I really don't understand people like you who criticize companies trying to push things forward. At least they're trying, why be so unsupportive?

Re:SpaceX, T-Mobile to connect satellites to cellphones in r... by carlivar on Friday August 26, 2022 @04:08PM (#32612150)
Are you a developer? Everyone knows the last 10% takes 90% of the time.

Though in this case I would say the remaining problems in FSD become exponentially more difficult the closer to 100%.

Why am I critical? Because Elon Musk reminds me of bad bosses and product managers in my career. They act like PT Barnum to the public and throw tantrums internally.

I also strongly dislike Musk's rejection of Kanban and Toyota Production System principles.

After all, Musk was fired as CEO by the PayPal board after Engineering mutinied against his ill-advised plan to migrate to .net and Windows.

Re:SpaceX, T-Mobile to connect satellites to cellphones in r... by bottlepalm on Saturday August 27, 2022 @02:48PM (#32621884)
Err the best engineers in the world work for him and want to work for him. Engineers run his companies. They’re given crazy ambitious goals and the resources to go do it. Engineers love challenges and making the impossible possible. Robots, fast cars, and rockets.
Re:SpaceX, T-Mobile to connect satellites to cellphones in r... by carlivar on Saturday August 27, 2022 @03:45PM (#32622452)
You keep saying things like that, but from your comment history you seem to be a huge Musk fan, so color me dubious. So what data do you have on 1) the best engineers and 2) their preference for Musk as boss?

Yet more tantrum like behavior with Twitter and Tesla return-to-office has definitely soured many of my colleagues recently.

Re:SpaceX, T-Mobile to connect satellites to cellphones in r... by bottlepalm on Monday August 29, 2022 @03:29AM (#32635567)
Glassdoor reviews give Elon a high rating and many of the reviews mention how the people are the smartest they’ve ever worked with.
Re:SpaceX, T-Mobile to connect satellites to cellphones in r... by ericd on Friday August 26, 2022 @12:36AM (#32603404)
That sounds like it was probably the standard Tesla display, rather than the FSD Beta display? My understanding is that it's a very different system. But yeah, the standard display has pretty laughable object persistence.
Re:SpaceX, T-Mobile to connect satellites to cellphones in r... by rblatz on Friday August 26, 2022 @02:35AM (#32604009)
I was interested in FSD but autopilot is so shitty and unreliable it has convinced me to not buy the upgrade. If they want to sell an expensive upgrade from autopilot to FSD they need to make the autopilot flawless at its job.
Re:SpaceX, T-Mobile to connect satellites to cellphones in r... by jillesvangurp on Saturday August 27, 2022 @09:04AM (#32618492)
Self driving cars are indeed still not there. But the right question to ask about those is who has the highest chance of getting those working first? There are a few companies working on this problem. Tesla is by far the biggest of those companies and they are throwing some serious money at the problem. It's not a safe bet to make but the odds are still pretty decent that they might get there before anyone else does. Their strategy for this seems pretty sound. But obviously it's taking longer than they hoped. A much less safe bet to make would be betting it will never happen.

As for SpaceX, their reputation for getting things done is rock solid right now. If they manage to get starship going, that will be a major leap in launching capabilities. But even just getting the star link network operational, or delivering people to the space station have been enormous accomplishments already.

The only thing that's remarkable about this announcement is how unremarkable it is relative to Elon Musk's other accomplishments. It's a radio on a satellite that connects to a phone. Doesn't sound like rocket science. I'm sure the antennas etc. are amazing but that is essentially commodity technology that he's simply launching to orbit. Doing that cheap enough that stuff like this makes sense to even consider doing is the true accomplishment.

Re:SpaceX, T-Mobile to connect satellites to cellphones in r... by dboreham on Friday August 26, 2022 @12:49AM (#32603465)
> proven harder than expected

Expected by whom? People who didn't understand the problem presumably.

Re:SpaceX, T-Mobile to connect satellites to cellphones in r... by kobbe on Friday August 26, 2022 @02:52AM (#32604079)
After hyperloop and tesla semi, I don't trust Elon that much.