News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Status Traps: Learning from Web2 Social Networks by EGreg on Sunday August 14, 2022 @03:35PM (#32462204)
Really sad that crypto has such a bad reputation in HN. As hackers we’re supposed to be challenging the entrenched Big Tech monopoly with its silos, but every time someone like IPFS or BitTorrent or MaidSAFE releases a token it’s somehow considered worse than the extremely centralized “cloud offerings” or privately owned networks. It’s crazy.

You say “a16z content is excellent” but a16z is the largest VC firm, with the VC industry funding closed source proprietary companies that extract rents and capture the market. People like Peter Thiel who say “competition is for losers, build a monopoly” and make sure Mark Z never builds wirehog, a peer to peer file sharing network, because that wouldn’t extract enough rents. People like Adam Neumann who build money-losing companies and dump the shares on the public, how are they any better than say the folks behind MaidSAFE who have been toiling since 2006 to bring everyone a FREE and open source secure file sharing network?

Crypto is cryptography powering open, byzantine fault tolerant protocols. It is the future. People governing things together (currently called DAOs). Code you can trust. And so on.

What sucks is blockchain, not crypto.

Re:Status Traps: Learning from Web2 Social Networks by logisticseh on Sunday August 14, 2022 @04:00PM (#32462419)
The characterization of crypto stuff as an alternative to Big Tech is, frankly, one of the most bewildering "Emperor Has No Clothes" situations I've seen in my life. And I've seen a few tech hype cycles.
Re:Status Traps: Learning from Web2 Social Networks by EGreg on Sunday August 14, 2022 @06:12PM (#32463498)
What do you think byzantine-fault-tolerant networks are? With redundancies built in, so your data is guaranteed to be online regardless of any third party, and so on?

For example, everything I've built and given away over the last 10 years has been building towards an alternative to Big Tech: https://intercoin.org/overview.pdf

Re:Status Traps: Learning from Web2 Social Networks by logisticseh on Monday August 15, 2022 @12:23PM (#32471687)
> What do you think byzantine-fault-tolerant networks are?

LOL. I've been working on distributed systems for... a while. I've even had a few conversations with Lamport, pre-Turing award.

Apparently today BFT is a buzzword used by alt-suits to hawk unnecessary solutions to fake problems.

> With redundancies built in, so your data is guaranteed to be online regardless of any third party, and so on?

1. That's... not what byzantine fault tolerance gives you.

2. Fault tolerance was a huge problem in the 90s and 00s but today is in most practical cases a solved problem (and without any use of "crypto").

> For example, everything I've built and given away over the last 10 years has been building towards an alternative to Big Tech: https://intercoin.org/overview.pdf

Lots of nudity AFAICT.

Re:Status Traps: Learning from Web2 Social Networks by EGreg on Monday August 15, 2022 @02:44PM (#32473624)
I know that BFT doesnt automatically imply the data has redundancies built in, which is why I mentioned it separately.

As for fault tolerance being “solved”, how’s Google Reader treating you? Are you able to control your Facebook or Instagram experience? I hear they know their new changes will irk people but will do them anyway. You think trusting others and giving them all the control to change something under you at any time is good because they trust themselves? That’s cute. Maybe they’ll even call their offering “the cloud” and you’ll believe it is like the Internet. Put all your photos there and don’t make any backups. Heck, put all your legal agreements there too! Who needs multiple distrusting parties to secure a ledger?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2022/07/27/instagr...

Don’t worry, though. You’ll own nothing and be happy. Software as a service. DRM books that can be removed. Centralizing all the data in one place can attract all kinds of government agencies and advertisers hungry for cheap data. Heck, if government agents want, they can even impersonate you, and all they have to do is send one letter to people you never met! How nice:

https://tutanota.com/blog/posts/australia-surveillance-bill

How can Hackers support these “anti Hacking bills” that let the governments and police hack your accounts and impersonate you… I guess I should come out with several flavors of ice cream for many in the HN crowd — it’s bootlickin good!

Re:Status Traps: Learning from Web2 Social Networks by logisticseh on Tuesday August 16, 2022 @04:54PM (#32488781)
> how’s Google Reader treating you? Are you able to control your Facebook or Instagram experience?

LOL you started by asking me if I know what BFT even is and now you're going on a rant about totally unrelated things.

BFT is a mathematical property about models of distributed computer systems. A property I'm now willing to bet you don't understand. and which you are now also invoking, vaguely, as part of a sweeping social critiques. This is such a silly pitch. I genuinely can't believe people fall for it.

Why do you drag no less than half a dozen vaguely related hot-button emotional topics with your sales pitch? The only thing they have in common is the constituency you're trying to exploit. People reading this for whom the parent post resonated: you're the fucking mark.

What's the point of this rhetoric? What are you trying to sell? To whom?

The solution to the Social Media Problem is really very simple:

Step 1: log off.

Step 2: Lobby for better privacy laws.

Step 3: Avoid repeating the original mistake; the crypto bros make the tech bros look like saints.

The problem with social media not primarily that it's centralized, so the fact that anything other than "log off and pass privacy laws" is pitched as a solution to FB/Instagram is probably the most astounding "Emporer Has No Clothes" situation I've ever seen.

Re:Status Traps: Learning from Web2 Social Networks by colinsane on Sunday August 14, 2022 @09:34PM (#32464925)
> What do you think byzantine-fault-tolerant networks are? With redundancies built in, so your data is guaranteed to be online regardless of any third party, and so on?

as for data availability, bittorrent works stupidly well today without any monetization. it turns out that upload/download ratio works as a pretty decent metric to combat tragedy of the commons for larger torrent communities that really want to protect against it. for websites, i've been surprised in the past when i let a domain expire, and then it pops up a month later because somebody who enjoyed it had archived it and brought it back online themselves. that's more satisfying to me than if it had been kept available because i paid some distant/dispassionate person $1 to do so.

point is, the future i want is largely one of reciprocity. decrease hierarchy and encourage participants to act as both consumer and producer. financialization doesn't do this: it encourages large, efficient producers to compete with each other to serve consumers. i don't want my 20,000-person retro-arcade community to be served by 5 people who've provisioned 4x10Gbps uplinks charging us for BW. then it's just some extractive thing (these producers are likely directing their proceeds to things unrelated to the community) and the magic's gone.

financialization helps when the capital cost of entry is otherwise too high. say, using loans that are repaid by usage-based micropayments as a way to get mesh power/data networks off the ground since these require costly physical equipment. such networks would be beneficial both from the redundancy/fault-tolerance perspective you care about and also from the social angle i care about of being able to participate in more of the things around me. but after deployment, continued monetization works against that latter aspect.

the one crypto project which financialized data networks (Helium) completely failed at the participatory aspect. its users (gateway operators) are merely providers for a different set of consumers (LoRa users). you may have good intentions, and you may build something better than FB/AWS, but if it's built around monetization it will only ever be a stopgap. stopgaps are fine and often good, but the places we need them are already shrinking. federated chat/social networks and peer-based media/streaming applications are developed and advancing rapidly enough for me to take them seriously today. another "big tech" alternative -- open SW/HW stacks for mobile phones as an alternative to Apple -- is in a similar state and crypto hasn't even started any parallel project that i know of. search alternatives are the furthest behind, but is anyone using crypto to build an alternative to Google? my understanding of search is that it's a tough problem to solve because of the money incentives (if a click results in profit via commerce or ads, then there's an incentive to pay for more clicks, either via backchannel payments or SEO), and that social ranking of search results is one of the only ways to overcome this.

Re:Status Traps: Learning from Web2 Social Networks by EGreg on Tuesday August 16, 2022 @01:20PM (#32485896)
Thank you! You gave me a lot to think about. Is there any chance we can connect (by email or zoom) to discuss this further? My work has brought me in contact with people ranging from economics (Thomas Greco) to politics (Andrew Yang, Forward Party, Noam Chomsky) to distributed systems (Leslie Lamport, Petary Maymounkov) to regulations (Sara Hanks) and so on. I'm constantly looking for what systems work best for certain things, how they work, etc. I'm often seen advocating for UBI and single payer health insurance, and collaborative open source movements instead of closed-source silos. My work is at the intersection of Web1 (publishing and speech) Web2 (collaboration and communication) and Web3 (transactions and governance) so naturally a lot of this comes up.

Example: https://community.qbix.com/t/freedom-of-speech-and-capitalis...

So I'd be very interested to hear and discuss your ideas about fostering a participatory economy that helps protect against the emergence of hierarchies and extraction of rent. How can we prevent people banding together and forming organizations that dominate others?

You can contact me through the email in my profile. Or is there a way I can contact you?

Re:Status Traps: Learning from Web2 Social Networks by colinsane on Tuesday August 16, 2022 @05:54PM (#32489481)
i've added to my HN profile a link to my about page, which has email/matrix/etc.

my answers to your economic questions may be less concrete or justified than you'd hope for. they're generally aligned by some broad goal of "decrease the cost of baseline human existence to $0, and leave the culture to figure out the rest." in a previous era that would be phrased in terms of "post scarcity" of the base needs like food and shelter.

from the scarcity angle, automation is the way out and if it's widely replicable then many of the incentives that drive hostile behavior are reduced. in a previous life i was active in personal manufacturing, and creator/maintainer of some 3d-printing firmware that later expanded into open source pick-and-place machines.

today i'm more active in the base layer of computation: how can we fabricate logic gates/integrated circuits without costly, centralized fabs. i'm wrapping up some experiments around ferromagnetic logic gates. such logic gates would use materials that you can assemble safely on a SLS printer; for now i have only the repo -- i hope to write something more accessible in a month or so. https://git.uninsane.org/colin/fdtd-coremem

Re:Status Traps: Learning from Web2 Social Networks by spaceman_2020 on Sunday August 14, 2022 @04:36PM (#32462704)
Even as someone who believes in the blockchain, its a little rich to pose it as a counter to Big Tech.

Its already being centralized and co-opted by the big guys.

Re:Status Traps: Learning from Web2 Social Networks by EGreg on Sunday August 14, 2022 @06:14PM (#32463531)
Yes, as I said, blockchain sucks. It requires large nodes to run the gateways and people just use those gateways. And so the Big Boys (TM) can come and run those. For example OpenSea may as well be a centralized site with an API for everyone, since all the wallets hit that API anyway. Is that what you want? Are you just throwing your hands up in the air and saying we can never get away from extreme centralization, or are you saying we SHOULD have the extreme centralization?

But the idea of crypto isn't just to work on a blockchain. It's about having public-private keys that you use to issue transactions on a decentralized, permissionless network. For example the Dat protocol / hypercore. What about all the other architectures? Is BitTorrent being centralized and co-opted, for instance? Is IOTA tangle or MaidSAFE or any of the other architectures?

Re:Status Traps: Learning from Web2 Social Networks by rglullis on Sunday August 14, 2022 @08:32PM (#32464524)
That "large node to run the gateways" cost me a total of $250, hard drives included. If you want to spend even less, people can get an old laptop and install dappnode on it. They can even share with their friends.

On my dappnode I bought a single 3TB drive to set up Storj. It paid for itself in the first year, now it generates enough revenue to pay for its power consumption and turn a very modest profit. Based on many different nodes just like mine, Storj offers a S3-compatible service at a fraction of the cost from AWS.

Re:Status Traps: Learning from Web2 Social Networks by UncleMeat on Sunday August 14, 2022 @10:31PM (#32465241)
> It's about having public-private keys that you use to issue transactions on a decentralized, permissionless network.

PGP has been around for many decades. Not exactly lighting the world on fire.

Re:Status Traps: Learning from Web2 Social Networks by paulryanrogers on Sunday August 14, 2022 @07:53PM (#32464316)
> People governing things together (currently called DAOs). Code you can trust. And so on.

Didn't the first DAO cause a fork of Ethereum? And isn't the most important part of investing understanding what you're investing in?

Apparently these contacts as code are so complex in practice (DSLs require understanding it and all its dependencies.) they tend to be foot guns, waiting for someone more dedicated to find and exploit them.

Re:Status Traps: Learning from Web2 Social Networks by rglullis on Sunday August 14, 2022 @08:21PM (#32464467)
The DAO didn't "cause a fork". The fork happened because there was a community consensus that the best solution to mitigate the hack was by migrating to a chain where the bug could be fixed. IOW, it was an example that governance is more sociological than technological thing.
Re:Status Traps: Learning from Web2 Social Networks by Jasper_ on Sunday August 14, 2022 @08:46PM (#32464618)
The community here were namely, the people who were upset their coins were stolen -- the developers, people who had a lot of coins, and miners. All the morals about "code is law", "free from centralized governance" went out the window when gainz were to be had.
Re:Status Traps: Learning from Web2 Social Networks by rglullis on Sunday August 14, 2022 @09:11PM (#32464767)
The community here is at least 51% of those running nodes on the network. They pretty much were (and still are) "free from centralized governance", so much so that those that disagreed with the change were completely free to keep the other chain.

Anyway, I think that "Code is law" is a bad phrase. A more appropriate (but still silly) phrase would be "Code is law enforcement". The laws themselves still need to be written by people, should still be subject to context-dependent interpretation and should still have room to be changed.

Re:Status Traps: Learning from Web2 Social Networks by robbiep on Sunday August 14, 2022 @09:56PM (#32465050)
>Anyway, I think that "Code is law" is a bad phrase. A more appropriate (but still silly) phrase would be "Code is law enforcement".

That’s an interesting approach. The popular conception from the evangelists is that code is law, because it’s meant to be a major advantage. By saying it’s not, what real benefits does a DAO/on chain contract offer? Certainly nothing like legal recourse like you’d get in an actual court in the real world.

And ultimately, it appears that code is neither law nor law enforcement. It’s just an opportunity for hackers to occasionally wipe everyone out and a community to scramble to roll things back with significant mud on face

Re:Status Traps: Learning from Web2 Social Networks by rglullis on Sunday August 14, 2022 @10:42PM (#32465300)
> Certainly nothing like legal recourse like you’d get in an actual court in the real world.

The "real world" is full of corrupt institutions and people in positions of authority that are not working with the interests of ordinary citizens in mind.

The "real world" is also a place where people have ubiquitous access to the internet, but don't have access to banking systems, easy credit or fast/cheap ways to settle minor disputes.

For these situations, a system that can provide an alternative to the established, well-functioning institutions is better than nothing, even if flawed.

Re:Status Traps: Learning from Web2 Social Networks by robbiep on Monday August 15, 2022 @01:59AM (#32466332)
I know people who have lost money to defi hacks, scams and counterparty risk. The total value significantly exceeds what I believe my friends have ever lost in the real world. So I’m not seeing the corrupt institution risk that is so trumpeted by the cryptobros. I’m also not convinced that ubiquity of internet access is anywhere close to providing a decent alternative in terms of access.
Re:Status Traps: Learning from Web2 Social Networks by rglullis on Monday August 15, 2022 @04:22AM (#32467106)
Let me guess: your friend is from a reasonably developed country and was putting money on defi as a way to "invest"?
Re:Status Traps: Learning from Web2 Social Networks by paulryanrogers on Sunday August 14, 2022 @08:43PM (#32464592)
So if the only recourse for bugs in DAOs is for the community to fork the underlying tech then it doesn't sound like a particularly robust system.
Re:Status Traps: Learning from Web2 Social Networks by rglullis on Sunday August 14, 2022 @09:22PM (#32464847)
Your mistake is thinking that the solution that was adopted for one instance of an issue is the only possible solution that can be used forever.

None of this is static. The DAO hack showed a flaw in the then-current practices of smart contracts. Developers learned from it, changes were made to the system. The system became more robust after it.

Much like any organism living in an ambient with evolutionary pressure, different mutations come up. After the DAO hack, some prefer to write their contracts in a way that allow some level of control by trusted admins, some of them still don't like the idea of privileged access to the contracts but will favor adoption of contracts only after formal verification. Some saw that as opportunity to specialize in contract security and become auditors.

None of these approaches are perfect by themselves. Other bugs will come, other "hacks" will exist, and hopefully each of these will act as evolutionary filter on the existing system.

Without a central authority, this is the only I see for systems to evolve. And if the whole point is to create an alternative that does not depend on a central authority, I'm fine with the current approaches to risk management.

Re:Status Traps: Learning from Web2 Social Networks by b1ue64 on Sunday August 14, 2022 @06:25PM (#32463627)
Crypto depends on blockchain. You clearly don't know much about the technology you're peddling.
Re:Status Traps: Learning from Web2 Social Networks by EGreg on Sunday August 14, 2022 @08:01PM (#32464362)
Really? Generating crytographic public keys, encryption, decryption, signing, ring signatures, Merkle Trees, cryptographic hashes, all this depends on blockchain? WOW!
Re:Status Traps: Learning from Web2 Social Networks by decode on Monday August 15, 2022 @08:04AM (#32468604)
I too found it confusing when people started using "crypto" to be short for "cryptocurrency" (and later, all blockchain-related things) rather than "cryptography". However, that ship has sailed and as Moxie Marlinspike points out in his NFTs post [0], that's now a Pepperidge Farm Remembers meme. I've come to accept it as a shift in usage and using the older meaning of crypto will just result in miscommunication, like in this thread.

So, to answer your question: no, those things don't depend on blockchain, but they're also not "crypto", according to the current usage of the word.

[0] https://moxie.org/2022/01/07/web3-first-impressions.html

Re:Status Traps: Learning from Web2 Social Networks by EGreg on Monday August 15, 2022 @10:15PM (#32478484)
Well, these things are all used in crypto. And lots of other Web3 applications. None of them require a blockchain !

https://community.intercoin.org/t/web3-moxie-signal-telegram...

Re:Status Traps: Learning from Web2 Social Networks by nonrandomstring on Sunday August 14, 2022 @07:18PM (#32464082)
People have a limited number of boxes into which to fit a very rich set of concepts emerging in the world of applied computing today. Unfortunately "tech people" are no better than average in dealing with breadth and nuance - and may actually be worse since we specialise.

We're also equally vulnerable to the mass-media distortions of emerging concepts ("AI", "Crypto", "Social Networks" etc.), often at the behest of incumbent powers and players.

All you can do as an aware hacker is patiently, politely, persistently explain in clear language. Eventually some of it sticks.

Re:Status Traps: Learning from Web2 Social Networks by jrmg on Sunday August 14, 2022 @05:50PM (#32463291)
‘Byzantine’ is good now?
Re:Status Traps: Learning from Web2 Social Networks by yjftsjthsd-h on Sunday August 14, 2022 @07:41PM (#32464238)
Probably not being used the way you think it is: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_fault
Re:Status Traps: Learning from Web2 Social Networks by EGreg on Sunday August 14, 2022 @06:15PM (#32463534)
Yes, Byzantine Fault Tolerance is very good.
Re:Status Traps: Learning from Web2 Social Networks by jrmg on Monday August 15, 2022 @11:12AM (#32470712)
Ah. Quite. I not only misunderstood that, I fell into the trap you’re complaining about, read your comment too fast, and associated ‘crypto’ with ‘cryptocurrencies’.

Related, and perhaps to salvage something productive from my confusion: I think we’re well past being able to rescue the word ‘crypto’ from being synonymous with cryptocurrencies in general, and blockchains in particular, in the minds of most. For general ‘crypto’, I think it’s time to start using ‘cryptography’.