News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Carbon offsetting is just another form of greenwashing by eurleif on Sunday August 07, 2022 @09:35PM (#32381643)
For pressure washers, the biggest issue is that the US generally uses 120 volts*15 amps. There are 240 volt models that have competitive specs with gas-powered models, but since consumers generally don't have 240 volt outlets other than for specific appliances, they're geared for the commercial/industrial market, and are accordingly expensive. I've toyed with the idea of importing a 240 volt pressure washer from India (specifically: https://www.starq.in/collections/high-pressure-washer-1/prod...) since they use 240 volts there, and their consumer-grade pressure washers are thus more powerful.

Weed wackers need to be cordless, though, so that's a different issue.

Re:Carbon offsetting is just another form of greenwashing by LorenPechtel on Sunday August 07, 2022 @11:03PM (#32382070)
Yeah, if we are going to avoid ICE engines around the house we need to modify the electric code. As it stands you can't get ICE-level power from anything electric because circuits of that power are not permitted for general use.
Re:Carbon offsetting is just another form of greenwashing by eurleif on Sunday August 07, 2022 @11:09PM (#32382093)
Is there actually something in the electrical code that prohibits installing a 240 volt outlet wherever you want? I know people often install them outdoors for EV chargers.
Re:Carbon offsetting is just another form of greenwashing by idubrov on Monday August 08, 2022 @12:13AM (#32382336)
(everything below assumes US and NEC / local electrical codes)

I don't think code prohibits it, but in my (not very educated) opinion, you might get into some gray territory if you try install them everywhere.

There are some safety related provisions which are mandatory for regular 120V (GFCI and/or AFCI), but I don't think they are required for 240V circuits. Building inspectors might have questions if you install these outlets everywhere. Although, again, I don't remember any limitation of where you can have them.

Another issue is the type of the receptacle. Apparently, Leviton makes receptacle that might be allowed in US and is combination of regular 120V plus European style 240V. However, it is only limited to 2.5A, which is very little (I think, this receptacle is primarily designed for hotels / shared spaces where you only want to charge your devices). Also, I don't think it has ground for 240V.

Probably, the best would be to use US 15A/20A receptacles (NEMA 6-15 / NEMA 6-20), which look very similar to the regular 120V ones (the difference is blades are horizontal).

However, I've never seen any actual plug using them (even though I did install these 240V in my garage, expecting some 240V equipment). But you can rewire plugs on your "imported" equipment / appliances.

There are also some interesting differences of the supply: in US it is typically split phase 120V+120V=240V, but sometimes (according to the internet) it could be 3 phase 120V with 208V between phases; in some parts of the world, it would be 3 phase 230V with 400V between the phases. This probably would cause some differences in how grounding works, might affect safety.

But yeah, generally, 240V should not be a problem. Power-hungry equipment (water heater, range, electrical dryer, EV chargers) -- they all typically use 240V already.

Re:Carbon offsetting is just another form of greenwashing by rsync on Monday August 08, 2022 @06:44AM (#32384054)
No, there is a proper us code-compliant solution for outdoor 240 receptacles - it’s that 4 prong 50amp one … you see them coming out of the ground at ski resorts, for instance, and they are also used on those outdoor PDUs you see at concerts and parades …

Edit: I think it’s a 14-50r.

Edit2: You almost certainly don't need these. A plain old 20amp 110 receptacle, on a dedicated circuit, GFCI, is a perfectly reasonable and code-compliant receptacle to put all over the outside of your house and will power anything you might need.

I can believe that a 15amp (pressure washer, weeder, etc.) might seem underpowered but I am skeptical that a 20amp one would be ...

Re:Carbon offsetting is just another form of greenwashing by idubrov on Monday August 08, 2022 @09:34AM (#32385180)
Right, there are code compliant solutions. I was just musing over an idea of having 240V "everywhere" (including inside the house in every room, having 240V for special needs is, of course, a solved problem).

14-50R is not what I would use in that case, they are bulky, unsightly and don't offer tamper resistance.

6-20R / 6-15R have variants that are tamper resistant, and they look like regular outlets.

"20A should be enough for everything".

We used to have 2.5-3kW kettles before we moved to US, which would require 20-25A (although, I don't think the math is that simple -- circuit breakers don't trip on "exactly 20A").

Also, the issue with 20A receptacles is that, again, I have never seen 20A plugs (NEMA 5-20P) on appliances (it has neutral connector "flat" rather than vertical). Which is understandable, why make them if nobody has 20A receptacles anyway. There is a requirement to have two 20A branches in a kitchen, but commonly they are wired to 15A receptacles.

Re:Carbon offsetting is just another form of greenwashing by rsync on Monday August 08, 2022 @10:46AM (#32386035)
Your anecdote about coffee makers is a good one - it bears repeating that one of the most intensive household loads are old-school coffee percolators, etc., and many school and church kitchens have circuits just for them.

As for 20amp, it may interest you to learn that I have a commercial microwave with two magnetrons that is actually 20amp (and has the horizontal pin, etc.).

Re:Carbon offsetting is just another form of greenwashing by idubrov on Monday August 08, 2022 @10:59AM (#32386237)
Yeah, it shows that I have zero knowledge about commercial appliances. I guess, I wouldn't be surprised if they routinely use 20A plugs / receptacles. Would make sense. Maybe, hospital equipment, too?
Re:Carbon offsetting is just another form of greenwashing by Symbiote on Monday August 08, 2022 @11:42AM (#32386892)
You would routinely see IEC sockets in use in Europe in commercial kitchens, factories, anything outdoors like a music festival etc. Partly it's for higher power appliances (including 3 phase power), but also the waterproofing.

They're also the socket found in datacentres (in Europe) to connect a UPS or PDU.

Home users see them at campsites, marinas, and for charging electric cars without a special car charger.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEC_60309

Re:Carbon offsetting is just another form of greenwashing by LorenPechtel on Monday August 08, 2022 @12:25PM (#32387582)
I actually have a set of 4 20A receptacles within about 3' of me. I had to have an electrician wire a dedicated line, the main cost was the labor, might as well use 4-wire cable wired to 240V, I got 4 120V outlets out of it and he used the 20A type that takes either the usual household plug or the 20A version.
Re:Carbon offsetting is just another form of greenwashing by idubrov on Monday August 08, 2022 @04:16PM (#32390483)
Wiring 240V is (typically) not an issue, as it is standard (in the US) to get 240V from the transformer to the house. The devil is in the details: what current would you wire it for, what receptacle are you going to use and what are you going to plug there.
Re:Carbon offsetting is just another form of greenwashing by LorenPechtel on Monday August 08, 2022 @12:23PM (#32387556)
ICE-powered pressure washers go up to 4,000 psi. I have never seen an electric pressure washer above about 3,000 psi and they're usually no more than the ballpark of 2,000 psi.
Re:Carbon offsetting is just another form of greenwashing by LorenPechtel on Monday August 08, 2022 @12:21PM (#32387532)
Your high power examples are all either dedicated wires (no outlet) or single-use outlets (like the dryer.) I'm saying there is no general use high power outlet permitted.
Re:Carbon offsetting is just another form of greenwashing by bryanlarsen on Monday August 08, 2022 @07:31AM (#32384308)
People install 240V outlets for EV chargers, RV's and hot tubs quite regularly. They usually don't break code to do so.

And those are usually 240V/50A outlets, a lot more powerful than the 240V/12A outlets of Europe.

Re:Carbon offsetting is just another form of greenwashing by Dylan16807 on Sunday August 07, 2022 @11:31PM (#32382182)
How much power do weed wackers need?

I have one with an 80 watt hour battery. The level of power seems just fine to me, for the moderate amount of time it lasts.

And that's barely over one pound of battery. Add five more pounds and that's a ton of power while probably still lighter than a gas engine.

Re:Carbon offsetting is just another form of greenwashing by assttoasstmgr on Monday August 08, 2022 @01:13AM (#32382546)
Please do post back here and let us know how long it took the 50 Hz motor to burn up from you running it at 60 Hz.

They certainly do make 240V 60Hz 20A rated pressure washers for the US market that typically come with inline GFCIs as well.

So you can feel good about saving the planet whilst cutting your toes off with the water jet.

Re:Carbon offsetting is just another form of greenwashing by eurleif on Monday August 08, 2022 @01:42AM (#32382660)
It's not on their Web site, but the label on the device itself (visible here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iCHvgkPXGMk&t=175s) says it's rated for either 50 or 60 Hz.
Re:Carbon offsetting is just another form of greenwashing by toast0 on Monday August 08, 2022 @12:11AM (#32382325)
> Weed wackers need to be cordless, though

They don't really. I've had corded electric weed wackers. You've gotta be more careful, of course, and within an extension cord of an outlet, but that's fine for acheivable lot sizes in most of suburbia.

Re:Carbon offsetting is just another form of greenwashing by hanche on Monday August 08, 2022 @02:57AM (#32383002)
> more careful

Indeed. I did cut through one extension cord with my hedge trimmer already,

Re:Carbon offsetting is just another form of greenwashing by bbarn on Sunday August 07, 2022 @10:58PM (#32382046)
120 in the US is typically on a 15 amp circuit. 240 in Europe at least (and I'd assume most of the world) is generally on a 5 amp circuit. This is speaking in typical household voltages and amperages, so obviously someone will have outliers, but this has been my experience

120 * 15 = 1800 watts. 240 * 5 = 1200 watts. US circuits generally carry more power than their overseas equivalents. If you plugged that Indian 240v pressure washer into your 20 amp circuit, it wouldn't likely draw more current unless it was designed badly, and wouldn't perform any better.

Re:Carbon offsetting is just another form of greenwashing by franga2000 on Monday August 08, 2022 @05:12AM (#32383610)
I've never seen a 5A circuit in South-Eastern Europe, or even a 5A fuse for that matter (many buildings still have fuse blocks, not breakers, so that's what I'm familiar with). 6A fuses can be found in some stores, but 16A seems to be the most commonly used in apartments. Most places also have 20/25A lines for the washing machine and oven.

Where in Europe have you seen 5A?

Re:Carbon offsetting is just another form of greenwashing by butterknife on Monday August 08, 2022 @01:24AM (#32382590)
I don't know where you got 5A from? Most Europe radial circuits are sized for 16A. In the UK it is common that house sockets are on ring circuits sized for 32A.
Re:Carbon offsetting is just another form of greenwashing by stephen_g on Monday August 08, 2022 @12:02AM (#32382299)
I don’t know of anywhere where 5A is common, everywhere I know of is always 10A minimum (2300 W at 230 V nominal). Here in Australia 10 amp sockets are everywhere but it’s common to have at least one 15A (3450 W) outlet somewhere in the home too
Re:Carbon offsetting is just another form of greenwashing by eurleif on Sunday August 07, 2022 @11:01PM (#32382060)
The Indian pressure washer I linked is 2800 watts.
Re:Carbon offsetting is just another form of greenwashing by Gibbon1 on Sunday August 07, 2022 @11:46PM (#32382231)
A NEMA 6-15 outlet can deliver that.
Re:Carbon offsetting is just another form of greenwashing by eurleif on Sunday August 07, 2022 @11:59PM (#32382289)
Right -- it's a chicken and egg thing where US manufacturers don't make consumer-grade 240v pressure washers because consumers don't have those outlets installed in the right places, and people don't have the outlets because there would be nothing to use them for.
Re:Carbon offsetting is just another form of greenwashing by Gibbon1 on Monday August 08, 2022 @02:59AM (#32383014)
Back a while I tried estimating what it would take to make 'electric weed burner'. The answer was you could do it but it needed a 30 amp 240V outlet.

One complaint I have in the opposite direction is hybrid water heaters. In heat pump mode they draw 500 Watts. But they require 240V @ 30 amps for the resistive heaters. Would be nice if they would run in heat pump mode only if connected to 120V single phase.

Re:Carbon offsetting is just another form of greenwashing by Symbiote on Monday August 08, 2022 @07:43AM (#32384378)
There are 2500W electric weed burners for sale in Europe, but they have mixed reviews.

https://bataviatools.co.uk/product/garden-tools/garden-machi...

Re:Carbon offsetting is just another form of greenwashing by bryanlarsen on Monday August 08, 2022 @07:29AM (#32384297)
It's chicken and egg, but one relatively easy to break on both sides.

- importing tools from Europe can kickstart the market and is a lot less risky than designing new tools

- 240V garage & exterior outlets are becoming common for hot tubs, RV's and electric car chargers.

Re:Carbon offsetting is just another form of greenwashing by idubrov on Monday August 08, 2022 @09:47AM (#32385312)
The problem with 240V is that there are few NEMA standards used is USA (although , they look bulky and are kind of unsafe around the kids.

Which is not a problem for dedicated circuits (you could wire receptacle just for this specific dryer / hot tub / RV / whatever, plug it and never remove), but would be a bigger problem if 240V is shared between appliances.

I think, NEMA 6-15 / NEMA 6-20 would be the best (they look very similar to standard 120V outlets; they have tamper resistance; 15A or even 20A should be plenty enough), but nobody wires them.

Also, there are other minor differences like:

1. 50Hz in Europe vs 60Hz in USA. 2. The voltage between ground and "power" lines would be different. In Europe it would be 240v between line and ground and 0V between neutral in ground, in USA it would be 120V between ground and both power connectors, due to how 240V is typically delivered to single-family homes in USA (split phase). Should not make much difference (you are not supposed to have any current to ground anyway, and any short-circuit should trigger the circuit breaker), but maybe it will affect safety somehow? 3. Seems like in some cases in USA you can get 208V instead of 240V (and Europe is nominally 230V).

Re:Carbon offsetting is just another form of greenwashing by Dma54rhs on Monday August 08, 2022 @12:44AM (#32382448)
No way being on 5 amp circuit is normal. Matter of a fact I'd be interested to hear where can you find it in Europe.
Re:Carbon offsetting is just another form of greenwashing by Symbiote on Monday August 08, 2022 @07:36AM (#32384338)
In Britain (possibly also Ireland, Malta, Cyprus) lighting and sockets are usually on separate circuits. The lighting circuit has a 5 amp fuse or breaker, enough for 12-20 old incandescent bulbs. A typical house probably has one circuit for each floor.

But that's certainly not where you'd connect a leafblower.

Re:Carbon offsetting is just another form of greenwashing by blibble on Sunday August 07, 2022 @11:27PM (#32382163)
20A is typical in 240V UK
Re:Carbon offsetting is just another form of greenwashing by Symbiote on Monday August 08, 2022 @03:51AM (#32383244)
No, 13A is the limit for a UK plug. You can buy a 3kW portable heater.

Something wired in might be 32A or more, like a car charger or electric shower (7.5kW).

Re:Carbon offsetting is just another form of greenwashing by blibble on Monday August 08, 2022 @10:16AM (#32385660)
we're talking about the circuit, the bit between the distribution board and the plug

I went and checked and mine are actually 32A