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Re:An Economy of Overfed Middlemen by rahimnathwani on Monday July 25, 2022 @12:59PM (#32227276)
Middlemen (e.g. wholesalers and retailers) serve a valuable function.

Imagine each consumer having to maintain relationships with hundreds of factory owners and tens of farmers.

Re:An Economy of Overfed Middlemen by jollyllama on Monday July 25, 2022 @01:03PM (#32227366)
>Imagine each consumer having to maintain relationships with ... tens of farmers

Farmers' markets are great.

Re:An Economy of Overfed Middlemen by jasode on Monday July 25, 2022 @01:22PM (#32227719)
>Farmers' markets are great.

Fyi if you didn't already know... the farmers' markets are themselves a type of middlemen. (At least every one I've shopped at in the USA.)

The farmers' market rents out the booth spaces to vendors (farmers). It's a real-world "platform" to bring together buyers and sellers. The farmers' cost to rent the space is embedded into the prices the consumers pay.

A true individual relationship with a farmer would be something like driving to Joel Salatin's Polyface Farms and buying broiler chickens directly from him. This bypasses the middlemen of farmers' markets.

Re:An Economy of Overfed Middlemen by jollyllama on Monday July 25, 2022 @01:30PM (#32227871)
That's true. The farmers' market also acts as a advertising for that kind of direct relationship. Most of the vendors have cards with links or phone numbers where you can arrange that kind of thing, or even deliveries. I'd say the difference is the farmers' market allows for that, whereas at a grocery store I'm usually buying products labelled states away, if they even are from a farmer you could ever buy direct from at all.
Re:An Economy of Overfed Middlemen by clairity on Monday July 25, 2022 @02:18PM (#32228639)
> "...like driving to Joel Salatin's Polyface Farms and buying broiler chickens directly from him."

reading omnivore's dilemma when it came out impulsively made me want to do that, but of course the impracticality of that quickly dawned on me. it's similarly why reading a book is a better than going and getting first-hand accounts for all our information. we've created socioeconomic structures for very good reasons, so we shouldn't want to burn them down for the tradeoffs, but rather we should address the negatives directly.

Re:An Economy of Overfed Middlemen by rcoder on Monday July 25, 2022 @02:33PM (#32228879)
We get about 2/3rds of our produce from a CSA (community-supported agriculture) share each week. The farmer drops off a load of whatever's ready to eat that week, and the members show up and take home their portion of what's there.

From a "commercial marketplace" POV, it's basically a farce. There's no security -- it's literally just a folding table full of food on someone's porch with a clipboard to mark that you've taken your share for the week -- and the supply varies with the weather, crop conditions, and even mundane things like "the delivery truck broke down this week; shares will be small and/or late."

And yet: everyone gets fed, the farmer gets paid, and it all ends up being price-competitive with a grocery store (much less a farmer's market).

We also patronize a farmer's market for the "showcase" products that succeed there: big pretty loaves of bread, flats of fruit, etc. It's still cheaper than any high-end grocery store, the shelf life is amazing b/c it hasn't traveled 1000 miles on a truck, and we get to interact directly with the folks who make the food.

The catch -- and it's a big one, in terms of classic microeconomic indicators -- is that we can't get an arbitrary amount of any chosen good at a competitive price right on the spot. Want peaches, but the stall sold out or bugs got this week's share? Sorry; hope cherries are okay this week. Don't like turnips or beets? Well, you might need to trade with someone who does, or find a new way to prepare 'em.

There's also no "economy of scale" to speak of; the largest vendors are probably a couple of bakers who make O(thousands) of loaves per day, or the ranchers and fishermen who show up with coolers full of frozen steaks and fillets (b/c one cow or fishing boat load actually feeds a lot of people).

Oh, and basically every farmer's market is also a localized barter economy. If you watch you can see the vendors roaming between stalls, offering trades and samples with other purveyors. After-hours, there are a _lot_ of boxes of food moving from one stall to another just before the left-overs get loaded back into the truck.

So yes, strictly speaking these are all "marketplaces". It's a far cry though from Amazon swooping in to undercut the successful products on their own platform, or any major store chain selling shelf space to the highest bidder to create -- rather than respond to -- consumer demand.

Obviously it doesn't work for every product or service, but there's definitely a space to accept a little less efficiency in favor of community-level resilience.

Re:An Economy of Overfed Middlemen by zwieback on Monday July 25, 2022 @02:29PM (#32228794)
Farmers' markets are great, yes, as entertainment for wealthy consumers with spare time, me being one of those. As a sales channel they are extremely inefficient and all told probably bad for the environment.
Re:An Economy of Overfed Middlemen by 8note on Monday July 25, 2022 @05:48PM (#32231375)
As a sales mechanism for CSA boxes they aren't too bad

The efficiency is dependent on what you're measuring - food per land area? Food per energy input? Energy output per energy input?

Re:An Economy of Overfed Middlemen by zwieback on Monday July 25, 2022 @06:10PM (#32231597)
I was thinking of total energy (and maybe something like CO2) per food on the customer's table, including the waste that's produced.
Re:An Economy of Overfed Middlemen by mariusor on Tuesday July 26, 2022 @05:21AM (#32236052)
For me personally it doesn't tract that reducing the supply chain between producer and consumer to the maximum will result in more energy expenditure:

The supplier has one trip to make to sell their current stock.

The consumer has one trip to make to buy multiple items that they're interested in (since this is a market).

Re:An Economy of Overfed Middlemen by framperz on Monday August 01, 2022 @02:58PM (#32310598)
Great quote on that from Vaclav Smil's new book: " each greenhouse-grown, supermarket-bought tomato has the equivalent of five tablespoons of diesel embedded in production"
Re:An Economy of Overfed Middlemen by Veen on Monday July 25, 2022 @01:27PM (#32227803)
But a marketplace is a classic example of a middle man. They facilitate sales between one group (the farmers) and another group (the buyers). The alternative is every buyer visiting every farm they want to make a purchase from. Farmers markets are a useful example of why middlemen often have a valuable role.
Re:An Economy of Overfed Middlemen by jollyllama on Monday July 25, 2022 @01:36PM (#32227970)
I never said they weren't. The takeaway would be middlemen can add different value. In this case the middleman is adding value by opening the door to direct relationships. So it's a gateway. In the case of a supermarket, they're adding something like distribution or logistics.
Re:An Economy of Overfed Middlemen by uoaei on Monday July 25, 2022 @01:46PM (#32228162)
Your comment is phrased as if you disagree with a conclusion which I don't believe was posed in the GP.
Re:An Economy of Overfed Middlemen by dominotw on Monday July 25, 2022 @03:23PM (#32229643)
here in chicago most of them aren't even farmers. They are just middlemen.
Re:An Economy of Overfed Middlemen by skippyboxedhero on Monday July 25, 2022 @04:10PM (#32230268)
It turns out manufacturing and distribution aren't the same business (food is a perfect example, there are used to be multiple layers of wholesalers, supermarkets took that all away...if you take them away, you get the layers of wholesalers...I will also say, farmer's markets aren't as clean, no-one today knows how unclean food used to be before supermarkets but that is another major reason why they exist).

You would have thought that a former policymaker/lobbyist would have known better than the market...he went to Harvard you known. But it turns out that there is a reason why businesses have been organized this way for the past three centuries.

Re:An Economy of Overfed Middlemen by jeromegv on Monday July 25, 2022 @04:16PM (#32230337)
Somehow people expect to buy straight from the farmers at the farmers market located in the downtown of a large city, ignoring the fact that the farmers do need to.. farm their land. Traveling with their goods back and forth within the city isn't really an efficient use of their time.
Re:An Economy of Overfed Middlemen by dominotw on Monday July 25, 2022 @04:34PM (#32230542)
well if its called 'farmers market' then that's the assumption. Should be called 'random market' otherwise.
Re:An Economy of Overfed Middlemen by rahimnathwani on Monday July 25, 2022 @06:18PM (#32231681)
I grew up near a 'random' fresh produce market called 'Balham market'. It's since been renamed 'Hildreth Street Market' and, according to Time Out, it's "blossoming into a foodie’s paradise".
Re:An Economy of Overfed Middlemen by cwmma on Monday July 25, 2022 @04:20PM (#32230392)
Yeah the point of the article is if you can monopolize that layer you can extract enormous rent, especially if you get yourself exempted from the law against kickbacks which pharmacy middlemen did.
Re:An Economy of Overfed Middlemen by rahimnathwani on Monday July 25, 2022 @04:38PM (#32230584)
How does Walmart (cited early in the article) fit into this overall narrative?

As a consumer, I feel like Walmart operates in a competitive market. I go to Walmart even less often than I go to Target.

Re:An Economy of Overfed Middlemen by cwmma on Monday July 25, 2022 @05:55PM (#32231455)
Target and Walmart have lots of control over sellers (technically as a Monopsony), if the don't carry your product, it doesn't get to consumers.

Also you may be lucky to have a choice, there are plenty of places where it's just a Walmart or target.

Re:An Economy of Overfed Middlemen by kqr on Monday July 25, 2022 @01:08PM (#32227481)
Consumers and producers can form cooperatives. They are middlemen, but not overfed ones.
Re:An Economy of Overfed Middlemen by lotsofpulp on Monday July 25, 2022 @02:07PM (#32228472)
I would struggle to define sub 5% profit margin retailers and wholesalers as overfed.
Re:An Economy of Overfed Middlemen by asdff on Monday July 25, 2022 @04:31PM (#32230508)
Poor starving Target investors with their stock being up 180% from 5 years ago
Re:An Economy of Overfed Middlemen by bagacrap on Monday July 25, 2022 @08:48PM (#32232944)
I mean Tesla investors are up far more and for what? they did nothing but buy the right stock at the right time. How did that action make the world a better place?
Re:An Economy of Overfed Middlemen by 8note on Monday July 25, 2022 @05:50PM (#32231397)
Are they middle men though? The stocks are basically unrelated to the business being done, unless the value gets so low that the underlying assets are worth more.
Re:An Economy of Overfed Middlemen by JonShartwell on Monday July 25, 2022 @03:57PM (#32230106)
The only difference between a manufacturer’s online store and a retailer’s from customer point of view is that the retailer sells multiple brands. I guess maybe there’s some value if you want to browse different brands, but if you already know what you want then the middleman is not providing you any benefit at all over the manufacturer’s online store.

Brick and mortar is different because they’re actually maintaining a space to show the items and bringing them close to you which is a benefit to the buyer.

Re:An Economy of Overfed Middlemen by rahimnathwani on Monday July 25, 2022 @04:30PM (#32230493)
"Brick and mortar is different"

Not in the ways you describe:

"because they’re actually maintaining a space to show the items"

This is similar to Amazon's site browse/search experience.

"and bringing them close to you"

This is similar to Amazon's fulfilment network.

Re:An Economy of Overfed Middlemen by JonShartwell on Monday August 01, 2022 @02:23PM (#32310159)
It’s a common experience to order something from a website and have its appearance be different from your expectations based on the photos and description. If you can see the appearance of the item you’re buying before buying that problem is impossible
Re:An Economy of Overfed Middlemen by rahimnathwani on Monday August 01, 2022 @02:51PM (#32310505)
I'm old enough to remember when most things I bought were bought in a physical store. I'd choose based on price, appearance and (for things like electronics) a textual description.

Today, I'll choose after reading several 2/3/4 star reviews for each of several alternatives.

This has resulted in a far lower rate of surprises and disappointments.

Re:An Economy of Overfed Middlemen by UweSchmidt on Monday July 25, 2022 @05:06PM (#32230922)
The internet was supposed to clear out all the middlemen. The websites consumers and factories use should be completely commodified and under strong competition, and with lots of innovation, like in the early days.

Very disappointing.

Re:An Economy of Overfed Middlemen by rahimnathwani on Monday July 25, 2022 @05:22PM (#32231105)
E-commerce isn't just about websites.

If I buy a charging cord from a factory owner, how long before I have it in my hand? And how much will shipping cost?

The fact that I can order a charging cord (or 10 different ones from 10 different manufacturers) and have them delivered tomorrow is innovation.

Re:An Economy of Overfed Middlemen by UweSchmidt on Monday July 25, 2022 @06:04PM (#32231544)
Market forces on a commodified, non-monopolized playing field should come up with all that innovation and bring us that charging cord faster and cheaper, and/or through a wider variety of curated market places and organic charging cord communities.
Re:An Economy of Overfed Middlemen by rahimnathwani on Monday July 25, 2022 @06:11PM (#32231608)
"organic charging cord communities"

I honestly cannot tell whether you're joking.

Re:An Economy of Overfed Middlemen by UweSchmidt on Tuesday July 26, 2022 @03:47AM (#32235499)
I tried to be a little concise. These days we mostly wonder which Amazon review is fake, and which product might be counterfeit. In the earlier days of the internet niche forums surprised with exciting and on-point information and initiative. Back to your charging cord example, a store could innovate and stand out by offering reliable off-brand alternatives for things like charging cords. Such innovation is less likely when a monopolist is holding on to most of the market share.

Back to my main point: The basic logistics of distributing products around the world should be equally good or better in a world without monopolists - theoretically, monopolies extract a surplus (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monopoly#/media/File:Monopoly-...), intuitively it's obvious ("why try when you don't have to").

Re:An Economy of Overfed Middlemen by anigbrowl on Monday July 25, 2022 @01:07PM (#32227465)
Up to a point, yes. Utility tends to follow a sigmoid curve.