News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, a... by tirpen on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @11:49AM (#32167481)
Most of these rules apply only to companies above a certain size, both in number of users and revenue. Those get classified as "digital gatekeepers" and they are the companies that have to comply with extra requirements.

So no, this will not affect startups and harm innovation, it will just force the monopolistic behemoths to play nice and cease actively harming innovation.

Re:EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, a... by buscoquadnary on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @12:24PM (#32168090)
It also starts to bother me quite a bit when we go from treating everyone equal before the law to creating certain requirements based on other factors.

Further it seems more like a moat to keep anyone else from getting as big as these "digital gatekeepers" are as suddenly when you get to a certain size you have an enormous expense.

If these companies really are that large that they have to get special laws for them isnt the solution to dissolve their monopoly and split the company up instead of starting to create separate classes of laws.

Re:EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, a... by MichaelCollins on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @12:29PM (#32168176)
> It also starts to bother me quite a bit when we go from treating everyone equal before the law to creating certain requirements based on other factors.

Like tax brackets? Treating big things exactly the same as small things seems ideological, not rational.

Re:EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, a... by mgraczyk on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @01:28PM (#32169185)
Very different structurally. Tax brackets almost always apply _marginally_. The higher tax bracket only applies to income made above the higher bracket level.

Behavior that applies marginally avoids most "discontinuity" and distortions in incentives that come along with them. For example, people whose income increases from $99,999 to $100,001 are only incentivized by a 100,000 bracket to hide the marginal $2, rather than suddenly needing to hide all of their income.

EU regulations that apply to companies above a certain size are not like this. Once you pass a certain level, it applies to all the business below the level. That already has a distorting incentive on growth and incentivizes companies to stay small. Maybe that's something you want in this case, but it's almost always an unintended consequence.

Re:EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, a... by rkagerer on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @03:49PM (#32171222)
Make the fine 10% of the marginal revenue?
Re:EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, a... by bee_rider on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @03:40PM (#32171102)
I wonder if there's any way these sorts of regulations could be applied marginally.

Perhaps if we formalized legal code as code, we could apply automatic differentiation (just kidding... I think)

Continuous laws do seem more fair in general. But it seems more important (to me, at least) that this sort of fairness is applied to individuals. For companies... they aren't people, we don't need to worry about making their lives confusing or miserable. They have legal departments to sort this sort of stuff out, they'll respond rationally to incentives, it is just a business decision.

Re:EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, a... by robertlagrant on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @03:56PM (#32171311)
They aren't people, but every additional thing they have to contend with affects only people. The abstract company is just a common understanding of what people are doing and what group of people they are dealing with when they buy a product.
Re:EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, a... by manholio on Thursday July 21, 2022 @08:21AM (#32178462)
The amount of market power Apple has left even after such extensive regulation still far surpasses what a small company can hope to get by building even the most restricted walled garden.

So, if there were any medium companies just below the regulation threshold, the discontinuity argument would make sense. But there isn't, and there won't be, precisely because of anti-competitive behavior of the giants, they can sustain walled gardens precisely because they are giants.

Re:EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, a... by laumars on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @02:15PM (#32169923)
There are other taxes that don’t function that way though. Like capital gains and stamp duty. Those taxes do frequently get gamed.
Re:EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, a... by dragonwriter on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @02:34PM (#32170217)
US long term capital gains do work that way: they have marginal brackets just like regular income taxes. (Your starting bracket is calculated based on your regular income, rather than from 0 the way regular income tax brackets work, but otherwise they work the same.)

And short term cap gains are just regular income.

Re:EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, a... by mgraczyk on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @03:32PM (#32170980)
I assumed the discontinuity the commenter was referring to here is the >=1 year cutoff for long term capital gains. After one year, all of the gains from the previous year are instantly converted to a lower tax bracket. You're not required to reassess the cost basis at the 1 year mark or anything like that, so there's a huge (intentional) incentive to hold capital for over 1 year.
Re:EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, a... by laumars on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @03:38PM (#32171069)
The US isn’t in the EU though ;)

I can’t speak for all member states but I do know some have a threshold and from that point you have to pay a percentage of the total amount. So some investment firms will game your portfolio to bring you in just enough to fly under that threshold.

The U.K., while not technically an EU member any more (and I’m still bitter about that), also operates this way.

Stamp duty is a U.K. tax placed on purchases of property. It’s free for properties under a threshold but the moment you go over it you have to pay a percentage of the total price of your house. Stamp duty does have incremental percentages but it isn’t calculated like income tax. Thus you’ll often see a lot of properties for slightly under each increment and then a jump in prices after. Some sellers even go as far as to put the house on for £x (under that threshold) but charge extra for additional purchases outside of the property (like a gazebo, hot tub, etc). I’ve even seen some buyers/sellers ask for private bank transfers for the additional extra. Which is outright fraud. But it does still happen.

Re:EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, a... by dragonwriter on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @04:56PM (#32172198)
> I can’t speak for all member states but I do know some have a threshold and from that point you have to pay a percentage of the total amount

So, exactly the same thing with a bottom bracket marginal rate of 0%?

Re:EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, a... by laumars on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @07:04PM (#32173572)
No. Income tax you only pay the percentage of the bracket you’re in. So (made up numbers here) if you earn 100k and the bracket changes every 40k then the first 40k will be taxed at the first bracket. The second 40k at the second bracket, and the remaining 20k at the third bracket. This means there’s no incentive to game income tax because if you narrowly slide into the next bracket then you only pay the higher tax rate for that margin you’ve gone over.

Whereas the capital gains and stamp duty go from (again made up numbers) 0% on 15k to 15% on anything above 15k. So if you had 15k you get taxed nothing. But if you get 15,001 then you pay 15% on ~15k (just by gaining an extra £1) rather than 15% on £1 (like how income tax works). Thus that extra £1 actually ends up costing you _a lot_ more in tax than it’s face value. And thus why people game such taxes to slide under the threshold in ways that doesn’t make sense with income tax.

Re:EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, a... by komadori on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @07:19PM (#32173692)
This was true, but UK stamp duty was reformed in 2014 to use marginal bands like income tax.
Re:EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, a... by laumars on Thursday July 21, 2022 @02:37AM (#32176453)
There have been exceptions to that reform though. For example the “stamp duty holiday” incentive ~two years ago removed marginal bands for the lower thresholds during its run. Which created a great deal of chaos for the housing market.
Re:EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, a... by mgraczyk on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @02:18PM (#32169973)
And capital gains taxes in particular massively distort incentives. But in that case it's intentional
Re:EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, a... by thayne on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @07:48PM (#32173978)
> Maybe that's something you want in this case

I think it is.

Re:EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, a... by mgraczyk on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @08:37PM (#32174344)
But keep in mind that this is at least partially contributing to the status quo, where there are very few large European tech companies and even fewer young ones.
Re:EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, a... by danuker on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @12:52PM (#32168563)
This is the core of the issue.

I have no recourse against Big Tech scamming me. They are an oligopoly sharing the same anti-consumer practices.

But if I regularly buy something from a friend, maybe I'm a 10th of their customer base.

Re:EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, a... by mgraczyk on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @01:29PM (#32169218)
This doesn't work online, and is the opposite of how fraud works in practice though. Larger sellers have a reputation that they care about and invest in. Small sellers with 10 sales don't care at all, they will make 10 good sales and steal from the 11th for a 10% profit.
Re:EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, a... by kjaa on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @03:10PM (#32170701)
Created an account to say: citation needed.

Giants can afford to skimp on any single customer relationship. Go read Amazon reviews, etc...

The one-person show with only continental shipping taking PayPal payments for their hobby business absolutely cannot afford to screw over 10% of their customer base. PayPal (or any other provider) has no patience, and anecdotally will always side with the customer.

And sure, citation needed, I know :)

Re:EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, a... by ROTMetro on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @03:15PM (#32170777)
Have you used Amazon lately? They not only don't care, they push garbage that is obviously fake in their advertised/recommend blocks. Go search for an SD card on Amazon, and they will recommend a 5000 terabyte SD card that costs $9. I've switched to Best Buy because in this weird dystopian future they are more worthy of my business than Amazon now and I'm not doing business with garbage companies any more.
Re:EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, a... by mgraczyk on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @03:25PM (#32170891)
My personal experience with Amazon in particular has been the opposite of yours.

Amazon has completely refunded every defective or damaged products I have ever received. I've done two returns of $100+ items in the past month, in one case the seller disagreed with me and Amazon took my side. In total I've probably had 30 refunds over the past 10 years of which at least 5 were Amazon intervening to prevent the seller from screwing me.

Re:EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, a... by someweirdperson on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @04:40PM (#32171993)
Why do you buy so many defective or damaged products?

I cannot remember the last time I had to return something. I rarely buy from Amazon though, and choose quality products from reputable sources, not the cheapest offer.

Or maybe I'm just lucky.

Re:EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, a... by mgraczyk on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @04:51PM (#32172155)
I buy multiple things online every week, probably 200 per year on average. I also buy a lot of cheap electronics.
Re:EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, a... by headsoup on Thursday July 21, 2022 @08:10AM (#32178377)
Amazon loves you.
Re:EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, a... by ROTMetro on Tuesday July 26, 2022 @03:50PM (#32243057)
I bought studio monitor speakers from Amazon. I received 1. Sent it back. Amazon refused to refund me. I had to point out over and over that from the weight of my package they can easily tell they did not ship me two speakers, only one. Nope. Months later I got an Amazon credit.
Re:EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, a... by mtlmtlmtlmtl on Thursday July 21, 2022 @11:34AM (#32180633)
Just recently Amazon allowed me to buy a kindle book for my specific kindle device, which turned out to not be supported. But they still allowed me to purchase and deliver it to this kindle. Only once I went to the device to sync it did I learn that it was incompatible. I was not allowed a refund.

Amazon is full of minor counts of fraud like this and at their scale I bet it adds up to real money.

Re:EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, a... by eastbound on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @03:40PM (#32171098)
Sometimes it’s a fun mind experiment:

YES, like tax brackets. Everyone should pay 30k$ per year to the government, no matter how rich or poor, for the services they get, and it would be the literal individual fair share.

The percentage-based taxes are already an unfair distribution of cost for the rich, and the progressive taxes amplify it even more. After all, who costs more at school, a Jeff Bezos, or an unruly one?

Re:EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, a... by sfe22 on Thursday July 21, 2022 @08:48AM (#32178665)
Good comment, but this will get killed by libs. However you are too high with 30k. I think something like 3k should be plenty to finance our government, and affordable for all. If the rich want a more expensive program that the poor cannot afford then they gotta find another way to finance it, rather than from taxes. Our government is supposed to represent all of its people, not give preferential treatment to the rich, the poor, blacks or whites, retirees or students, renters or landlords etc. Its none of its business.
Re:EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, a... by Loranubi on Thursday July 21, 2022 @11:47PM (#32188284)
However who benefits more? Who relies more on street infrastructure for revenue? The CEO of a car company, or a random worker?
Re:EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, a... by sfe22 on Friday July 22, 2022 @01:55AM (#32188978)
The government should protect our constitutional rights, provide security from other nations and represent all of us abroad. It shouldn’t build roads, (beachfront) housing, statues or plant trees. Thats up to the people that will benefit from it, whether that be a company, a worker or a town agreeing to do so.
Re:EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, a... by glogla on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @12:31PM (#32168209)
> It also starts to bother me quite a bit when we go from treating everyone equal before the law to creating certain requirements based on other factors.

This is completely normal for laws.

Your kitchen at home doesn't have to follow the same rules as restaurant kitchen, for example. You as a driver of your personal car don't have to go through the same process and registration as truck drivers do. Small stalls selling things have different rules than big stores. And so on.

Re:EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, a... by toyg on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @12:56PM (#32168644)
I reckon this particular objection actually shows the forma mentis of developers. It seems like a lot of them feel like they are temporarily-embarrassed megacorps, worrying about things that will never really apply to them.
Re:EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, a... by MichaelCollins on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @01:25PM (#32169140)
Exactly. Worrying about your company "suddenly" crossing the €75 billion market cap threshold... that's the sort of problem most people would give an arm and a leg to have.
Re:EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, a... by mortenjorck on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @08:23PM (#32174252)
> temporarily-embarrassed megacorps

This is a very perceptive extension of the famous Steinbeck quote. The sentiment is certainly not limited to the blue-collar labor class of which the original referred.

Re:EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, a... by charcircuit on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @02:48PM (#32170409)
It's possible to have an opinion on laws that you don't effect oneself. If a country had a law that if a company reaches $1 billion lifetime revenue that it gets repossessed by the state I can apply my belief that stealing is bad and be against that law despite it likely never affecting me.
Re:EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, a... by toyg on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @03:24PM (#32170873)
> It's possible to have an opinion on laws that you don't effect oneself.

Sure, and it's possible to heavily discount your opinion when compared to the hundreds of opinions of experts in antitrust law that helped shaping this legislation. This would be less the case, maybe, if this legislation actually targeted you, so your insight would be relevant; but the fact is that it doesn't.

Re:EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, a... by charcircuit on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @05:50PM (#32172888)
Democratic societies don't decide laws based off what "experts" think is right, but instead based off what the entire populace thinks. If I was European my opinion should matter just as much as one these "experts."
Re:EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, a... by wasmitnetzen on Thursday July 21, 2022 @05:25AM (#32177285)
Europe is, for the most part, a representative democracy, not a direct democracy. We specifically elect experts to write laws, and not have the general populace decide it.
Re:EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, a... by fabianhjr on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @03:04PM (#32170634)
Requiring monopolistic platform megacorps to compete is similar to expropriating them. Got it.
Re:EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, a... by charcircuit on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @05:46PM (#32172837)
I was using an extreme example to illustrate my point more clearly.
Re:EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, a... by ROTMetro on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @03:31PM (#32170962)
I think it's more having the mindset to think externally to yourself and put yourself into users 'usecases', not personal self interest.
Re:EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, a... by hnbad on Friday July 22, 2022 @05:08AM (#32190070)
Yeah, no. Neither systems thinking nor empathy lead to the position that megacorps should be treated exactly the same way as smaller companies. If anything, the exact opposite is the case.
Re:EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, a... by oaiey on Thursday July 21, 2022 @02:35AM (#32176445)
This is even true for something like medical devices. The FDA is really soft with startups and a pain in the ass once you grew some years.

And it makes sense. Let the small business experiment a bit, give them a bit leeway and once they grew to a certain size, expect that they think about the bigger picture. Which our dear monopolists only do in their favor.

Re:EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, a... by pavlov on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @01:02PM (#32168732)
Also, equality principles that apply to actual persons don’t necessarily make sense if applied to corporations.

A person, even if very rich, has a limited lifetime and a limited amount of hours in a day to spend. A corporation is immortal and can have 100,000 people simultaneously working on something. It’s bizarre if the law pretends that such an entity is just another human.

Re:EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, a... by ekianjo on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @02:31PM (#32170165)
Its because your kitchen at home is not a business.
Re:EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, a... by ethbr0 on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @02:41PM (#32170318)
I'd hazard it's more specifically because your kitchen at home has a lower ceiling of harm.

If you start a grease fire, you burn down your house.

If you serve meat that's been stored at room temperature, you make your family and some friends sick.

But a commercial kitchen's potential for harm is much higher in many ways.

Re:EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, a... by larsonnn on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @07:51PM (#32174002)
> It also starts to bother me quite a bit when we go from treating everyone equal before the law to creating certain requirements based on other factors.

They are literally the internet. That’s not about some companies to get some of there dollars. They literally gatekeeping. Amazon just shut down a whole social media platform. You can’t sell apps to iOS without paying Apple a big part of it (15 % - 30 %). Yeah you could say just create your own phone that would be fine right? How realistic is this. You can’t even build a good one because the bigger companies have so many patents you can’t go out. Then you write your own OS because you don’t want to pay and global company for using there OS. So give me my 200billion $ to get in the market. You can’t even advertise your product because they wouldn’t show your ad at all. That’s equal?

Also the EU can’t just split up companies. It’s a step to get some freedom back.

Re:EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, a... by yulaow on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @12:30PM (#32168191)
Exactly, and this is why the rest of the world is wishing and waiting since years that US lawmakers start implementing serious anti-trust laws and entities which work in that direction.

I mean, after the facebook-whatsapp merge (and the whole aftermath) we mostly lost all hopes.

Re:EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, a... by ClumsyPilot on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @03:18PM (#32170811)
> treating everyone equal before the law to creating certain requirements

we are not treated the same, If I killed 300 people the way boeing did with its Max debacle, I would be serving 15 consecutive life sentences.

for all the times a corporation kills people, almost never does anyone go to jail

> isnt the solution to dissolve their monopoly

Why is that the preffered solution? If you are arguing for that, you need to provide some reasoning or benefits.

I am sure they would prefer not to be split up.

Re:EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, a... by unity1001 on Thursday July 21, 2022 @04:58AM (#32177139)
> It also starts to bother me quite a bit when we go from treating everyone equal before the law to creating certain requirements based on other factors.

We already do that. We always did that. We regard things that are used larger than a certain scale as infrastructure. Roads. Justice system. Military. Power network.

We always heavily regulated these. Entire world except the US also regulated the Internet backbone as a utility. So nowhere in the world do people and companies have to still pay mid-2000s prices for bandwidth like they have to in the US after 1990s regulations expired and major ISPs started to consolidate entire backbone. They even tried to declare the Internet backbone, therefore the Internet, their 'private property' to be able to do whatever they wanted.

When tech monopolies go over a certain size and become literal infrastructures that everyone HAS to use one way or the other, they should get the same treatment.

Re:EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, a... by colinmhayes on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @12:41PM (#32168368)
I don’t think the EU has the ability to break up American companies. I guess they could try to ban them from operating in the EU, but that would pretty much nuke diplomatic relations with the US so it’s hard for me to see it happening.
Re:EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, a... by mschuster91 on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @01:35PM (#32169324)
Oh we absolutely can do that. Microsoft barely avoided that fate over their antics with Internet Explorer back in the days.

Anti-American company sentiments are high across Europe, especially when it comes to big tech companies. Our people are sick of US companies playing wild west and stomping all over regulations - AirBnB and Uber caused the most public backlash here (AirBnB because of people complaining that they were priced out of their homes and illegal hotel-style operations disrupting their lives, Uber because taxi drivers have pretty good lobby connections), followed by Facebook (which was mostly a topic for privacy nerds). Also, we have not forgotten who caused the 2008 financial crisis and who keeps dodging tax and labor laws while the taxpayers are left to deal with the followup costs.

Pay up and behave or get kicked out, GDPR was just the beginning (and once we get the Irish authorities to behave, your companies are done). The EU bureaucracy is like a big tanker ship, slow as molasses, but once it is moving it is not stoppable other than by going out of its way.

Re:EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, a... by botulidze on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @02:18PM (#32169978)
I just checked Uber from my home to the airport and it’s 17 EUR. If I call yellow cab, price would be 1.5-2x higher and if I imagine a foreigner catching one on the street without the meter - that could get even worse.

I went for 2 weeks abroad with a week vacation and other week working remotely. There was no hotel in the area to provide me with the proper accommodation. But Airbnb did that just fine.

So I don’t necessarily see those services and companies behind as pure evil. I would say the government running behind and reactively setting limitations rather than proactively thinking about the way to move forward is an issue here.

Re:EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, a... by mschuster91 on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @03:07PM (#32170665)
> I just checked Uber from my home to the airport and it’s 17 EUR. If I call yellow cab, price would be 1.5-2x higher

A taxi may be more expensive at "idle" times - but ever tried to grab an Uber at a big event like a concert, a soccer game or Saturday night out drinking? You'll pay triple or more. Regulated taxis are more expensive, but always consistent which is a value on its own. Also, you can be sure that the driver doesn't live in poverty [1] or works ridiculous hours.

> and if I imagine a foreigner catching one on the street without the meter - that could get even worse.

I can't speak for countries other than Germany, but at least here this is simply not a thing.

What is a pain point with German cabs (and other German services) is that the acceptance of credit and especially debit cards is still a bit lackluster, but the situation has massively improved during covid.

> There was no hotel in the area to provide me with the proper accommodation. But Airbnb did that just fine.

Yeah, because wherever you were is most likely zoned residential, meaning no hotels and the associated noise from partygoers, vehicles and the likes. Are the neighbors of your AirBnB fine with someone renting out a room to randoms? Most likely not.

[1] https://www.sfchronicle.com/business/article/He-drives-60-ho...

Re:EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, a... by saddlerustle on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @06:11PM (#32173094)
> Also, you can be sure that the driver doesn't live in poverty [1] or works ridiculous hours.

You absolutely can't. Taxi drivers are independent contractors in most european countries too, with no minimum wage protections or enforcement of hours worked.

Re:EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, a... by jimmydorry on Thursday July 21, 2022 @07:38AM (#32178160)
> A taxi may be more expensive at "idle" times - but ever tried to grab an Uber at a big event like a concert, a soccer game or Saturday night out drinking? You'll pay triple or more. Regulated taxis are more expensive, but always consistent which is a value on its own. Also, you can be sure that the driver doesn't live in poverty [1] or works ridiculous hours.

The prior here is simply not having enough taxis available. Fixed cost and capacity versus incentives that increase capacity when needed.

Re:EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, a... by bigDinosaur on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @09:08PM (#32174581)
Honestly, the EU better step up actually creating tech companies then, because the current situation generally sucks. I'd happily use European alternatives to the products from Google, Facebook, Apple, Microsoft, etc. but you have very little at that level. For my use cases there's nothing from the EU to replace those companies for me. There are some alternative offerings but they're usually far inferior and so I can't count them as replacements. The ones that are good usually end up moving to the US because it actually isn't insanely difficult to run a business there.

Even Linux is more an American product at this point than a European one with Intel being iirc the biggest contributor. I just think it's a bit of a joke that the EU strategy is to regulate American companies to this extent without having any coherent vision on developing genuinely viable alternatives and providing incentives to stay in the EU.

Re:EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, a... by freeflight on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @05:13PM (#32172402)
> Also, we have not forgotten who caused the 2008 financial crisis and who keeps dodging tax and labor laws while the taxpayers are left to deal with the followup costs.

But we have apparently forgotten about this [0], nearly a decade later and it still remains a completely ignored issue that pretty much nobody was held accountable for except the people who drew attention to it.

[0] https://www.europarl.europa.eu/document/activities/cont/2014...

Re:EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, a... by someweirdperson on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @05:06PM (#32172329)
> Anti-American company sentiments are high across Europe, especially when it comes to big tech companies.

Not "especially" but exactly those. Almost no other american companies are known here. Of course there are McDonalds and Coca-Cola, but their bad reputation is for their unhealthy products, not the companies themselves.

Re:EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, a... by mediascreen on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @04:56PM (#32172201)
As a Swede with pretty much the opposite views, your monolithic EU "we" sounds pretty offensive.

The 2008 financial crisis might have started in the US, but outcomes in European countries varied greatly depending on local policies and debt levels. It's hardly Americas fault that some European countries had taken on very high levels of government debt.

AirBnB and Uber seems pretty easy to regulate on a local level and in many places in Europe they are.

Re:EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, a... by ekianjo on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @02:30PM (#32170147)
whats the mechanism exactly for the EU to be able to break US companies? you completely eluded that point.
Re:EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, a... by colinmhayes on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @02:01PM (#32169738)
Obviously the EU can institute rules and fine companies that break them. But forcing companies to break up or kicking them out of Europe might be a step too far for the American government. Is the EU really willing to enter a Cold War with the us? Especially with the Russia situation I’m not sure they’re even able to without mass protests because the lng pipeline from the us will immediately dry up.
Re:EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, a... by freeflight on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @05:19PM (#32172483)
> I’m not sure they’re even able to without mass protests because the lng pipeline from the us will immediately dry up.

The cold war has already gone hot thanks to "Fuck the EU" US interference in Ukraine [0] by now having escalated into a full blown open war, just like there is no "LNG pipeline from the US" to Europe.

> not sure they’re even able to without mass protests

Do you mean mass protests like they we had over the invasion of Iraq? That didn't lead to anything and thus has crippled the global peace movement to this day.

That's why the idea that European people will "take to the streets" to protest for "American gas", is pretty out there and quite fantastical.

Before that happens you will see people take to the streets to protest the sanctions that are mainly responsible for this economic hardship, sanctions pushed for by Washington.

[0] https://youtu.be/WV9J6sxCs5k

Re:EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, a... by _kbh_ on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @07:11PM (#32173633)
> The cold war has already gone hot thanks to "Fuck the EU" US interference in Ukraine [0] by now having escalated into a full blown open war, just like there is no "LNG pipeline from the US" to Europe.

The Cold War got hot cause of Russia, no one else. Russia is the one who decided to invade Ukraine, Russia is the one who decides to bomb children, Russia is the one who decides to commit genocide against the Ukrainians, Russia is solely responsible for this war.

No amount of “Ukrainian bio weapons” or “Ukrainian witch battalions” or “Ukrainian inhuman super soldiers” stories pushed by the kremlin will change this fact.

Re:EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, a... by concordDance on Thursday July 21, 2022 @03:30AM (#32176741)
> Russia is the one who decided to invade Ukraine, Russia is the one who decides to bomb children, Russia is the one who decides to commit genocide against the Ukrainians, Russia is solely responsible for this war.

To hear Russia tell it, Ukraine has bombed a lot of children in the last 8 years and was committing genocide in East Ukraine. Ukraine also got couped.

Note: I personally have no ability to determine the truth of the Russian side beyond reading the wikipedia page and noting it plausible. I wonder if you have some extra information on things like how many civilian causalties occurred in the Donbas before 2022 or what the real support for Crimea joining Russia was?

Re:EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, a... by freeflight on Thursday July 21, 2022 @07:28PM (#32186541)
> Ukraine also got couped.

Except that's not how Russia tells it, that's what actually happened.

On February 21 then acting Ukrainian president Yanukovych signed a transition deal with the Ukrainian opposition, brokered by the EU and Russia [0].

That should have been the end of most of it, but it wasn't, later that day Yatsenyuk, aka "Yats our guy" from the Nuland tape, and Tyahnybok, who both agreed and signed to the deal, went on stage on Euromaidan and then declared how "That's not enough" riling up the protesters to demand more.

Klitschko, who was constantly trying to keep the peace [1], and was Merkel's aka the EU's choice [2] was completely left out of that. More context on that in the leaked Nuland call, where she rates Klitschko's governmental experience not high enough for such a position, thus their go ahead with "Yats is our guy" and "Fuck the EU".

That situation escalated then so much, that by the early morning of February 22 the leader of Right Sector announced how they had taken over, and secured, the parliament and several other local government buildings [3].

It's exactly that part the current "Russia lies" narrative always leaves out, by claiming Yanukovych just randomly fled from a completely peaceful protest.

After Yanukovych fled, Yatsenyuk announced their new post-coup government to rather frosty reception on Euromaidan [4].

As a German I was actively following the situation back then, that's why I still have most of these sources. But since then so much information was straight up "deleted" from the web. It used to be extremely easy to find violent footage from Euromaidan on Twitter and YouTube, not anymore, all deleted as "Russian propaganda" so the "peaceful revolution, there was never a civil war" narrative can keep getting pushed without too much of an factual opposition.

Another, rather concrete, example is Yatsenyuk's "Open Ukraine Foundation", that went online shortly after the coup, it's partners page had all the usual US regime change actors bluntly spelled out [5]. First the foundation changed from his name, to his wives, and ultimately that partners page vanished completely, too blatantly incriminating.

[0] https://www.politico.eu/article/yanukovych-signs-transition-...

[1] https://youtu.be/5bPKFto1AFY

[2] https://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/ukraine-merkel-will-k...

[3] https://www.unian.net/politics/888104-verhovnaya-rada-admini...

[4] https://youtu.be/wegtWNIFX1Y

[5] https://web.archive.org/web/20140302111543/http://openukrain...

Re:EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, a... by _kbh_ on Friday July 22, 2022 @04:11AM (#32189743)
> That should have been the end of most of it, but it wasn't, later that day Yatsenyuk, aka "Yats our guy" from the Nuland tape, and Tyahnybok, who both agreed and signed to the deal, went on stage on Euromaidan and then declared how "That's not enough" riling up the protesters to demand more.

Alleged Nuland tape, it hasn't been in anyway shape or form authenticated and we know from this war that Russia is more then happy to use deep fakes to control the narrative.

> It's exactly that part the current "Russia lies" narrative always leaves out, by claiming Yanukovych just randomly fled from a completely peaceful protest.

It's not a narrative, unless you seriously believe in Ukrainian weaponised witches/black magic and Ukrainian bio engineered super soldiers.

Its funny you paint a very different picture to the wikipedia article.. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolution_of_Dignity

> The following day, police withdrew from central Kyiv, which came under effective control of the protesters. Yanukovych fled the city.[33] That day, the Ukrainian parliament voted to remove Yanukovych from office by 328 to 0 (72.8% of the parliament's 450 members).

Looks like Yanukovych ran away after he got ousted by the parliament themselves.

Re:EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, a... by freeflight on Friday July 22, 2022 @04:49PM (#32196955)
> Alleged Nuland tape, it hasn't been in anyway shape or form authenticated

Except the USG officially apologized for the "undiplomatic language" on the tape [0]

Do you think the USG is in the habit of apologizing for Russian fakes or what happened there?

> It's not a narrative

Yes, the "peaceful revolution" is very much a manufactured narrative, you should check out your own link [1]

> unless you seriously believe in Ukrainian weaponised witches/black magic and Ukrainian bio engineered super soldiers.

Can you please stop the bad faith arguing and strawmanning? I didn't write a single thing about anything like that.

> Its funny you paint a very different picture to the wikipedia article

Lets take a look at the actual TIMES article that's the citation for that [2];

"Ukraine’s beleaguered President Viktor Yanukovych fled Kiev Saturday as protestors took full control of Ukraine’s capital"

Beleaguered president fled after protesters took control of the capital, which also involved taking control of the parliament and the local security authorities, Right Sector announced it very much themselves in the very early morning of 22 February [3];

"“The Seventh Hundred is located inside the Verkhovna Rada. Also there is a division of the "Right Sector". Protected by the Cabinet. The nineteenth and third hundreds are guarding the Presidential Administration. The Fifteenth Hundred guards the Ministry of Internal Affairs,” Parubiy said."

Right Sector had control over who they let enter the parliament and who not. Want to guess who they let in, and who don't? That's also why the Wikipedia article has several different numbers for that how many actually participated in those parliamental votes. Sometimes it talks about 328 attending, then it's 386 and then it's suddenly "450 members voted 332-0", the Wikipedia article is all over the place on that.

Additionally; Did Russia also fake McCain shaking all the right hands [4]? Was it Russia who then made an American investment banker the new minister of finance for Ukraine, complete with fast-tracked citizenship? [5]

The evidence is overwhelming and blatant, that's also why all you can do is deny, even trying to strawman the discussion by talking about "weaponized witches".

Very much the same as back in the early 2000s when everybody knew the USG was lying about Saddam being responsible for 9/11 and the WMD, yet everybody played along for appearances and not wanting to get called a "terrorist supporter". But unlike back then, this time the stakes actually involve nuclear weapons.

This might or might not be the reason US authorities have lately been very active in educating their population about the proper response to a "radiation event" [6] [7] [8].

Mostly unnoticed in the US, yet to those who was alive during the cold war, particularly in central Europe, that's just quite scary, particularly in combination with the even worse than war on terror levels of information distortion.

[0] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/06/us-ukraine-rus...

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolution_of_Dignity#/media/F...

[3] https://www.unian.net/politics/888104-verhovnaya-rada-admini...

[4] https://www.businessinsider.com/john-mccain-meets-oleh-tyahn...

[5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natalie_Jaresko#Citizenship

[6] https://youtu.be/N-5d7V4Sbqk

[7] https://www.cdc.gov/nceh/radiation/emergencies/index.htm

[8] https://www.reddit.com/r/oddlyterrifying/comments/ufbx40/the...

Re:EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, a... by _kbh_ on Friday July 22, 2022 @07:40PM (#32198477)
You should really read your own sources

> Except the USG officially apologized for the "undiplomatic language" on the tape [0]

>> Victoria Nuland reportedly said ‘Fuck the EU’ speaking of Ukraine crisis, though department didn’t confirm it was her voice on tape

There’s no confirmation whos voice is on that tape although the tape itself is reportedly said to be authentic

> Yes, the "peaceful revolution" is very much a manufactured narrative, you should check out your own link [1]

The Russians often lie _is not a narrative_ the Russian government nearly never tells the truth. All you need to look at is there state media during this war to see many examples of it, from downing civilian aircraft to weaponised witches, the firehose of falsehood is well and alive.

> Yes, the "peaceful revolution" is very much a manufactured narrative, you should check out your own link [1]

The only person on that page that suggests this is a coup is the former president who got deposed and ran away back to his masters in Russia. No amount of images will change the fact it wasn’t a coupe, no amount of walls of text from you will either.

> The evidence is overwhelming and blatant, that's also why all you can do is deny, even trying to strawman the discussion by talking about "weaponized witches"

Do you think the Russians lie?.

Re:EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, a... by freeflight on Friday July 22, 2022 @07:20PM (#32198300)
No response, just downvote, as usual.

What has lately been up with the voting system on HN? Apparently people I reply to, with much newer accounts, can just instantly downvote my comments.

Yet most of the time I don't even get a downvote option, and pretty much never to any of the replies to my comments.

Feels like the system is being gamed by people with alt accounts.

Re:EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, a... by _kbh_ on Thursday July 21, 2022 @06:40AM (#32177742)
> To hear Russia tell it, Ukraine has bombed a lot of children in the last 8 years and was committing genocide in East Ukraine.

Russia likes to tell a lot of lies and half truths to muddy the waters of everything I wouldn't trust what they they also generally don't provide any solid evidence of any of there claims either, just take these examples.

"Russian State Media Claims to Discover Militarized Ukrainian Witches".

https://www.vice.com/en/article/dypmpk/russian-state-media-c...

"Russian lawmakers baselessly claim their army is up against biologically modified Ukrainian super soldiers"

https://www.businessinsider.com/russian-lawmakers-tout-basel...

"U.S. Ramps Up Ukraine Warnings as Russia Denies Invasion Plans"

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-02-17/russia-te...

Russian state media just cannot be trusted to tell the truth, I wouldn't believe a single word they say.

> Note: I personally have no ability to determine the truth of the Russian side beyond reading the wikipedia page and noting it plausible.

This would be a mistake, the "firehose of falsehood" is a well known Russian tactic, they lie constantly just to muddy the water. All you need to do is look at MH70 (the civilian airliner that Russian troops pretending to be separatists shot down) to see it in action, before it was publicly revealed to be a airliner they where posing with pictures of the wreckage and bragging about downing a Ukrainian military plane then when it was revealed what happened a whole bunch of Russian pushed conspiracy theories started popping up regarding it.

> I wonder if you have some extra information on things like how many civilian causalties occurred in the Donbas before 2022.

Because of the way that Russia lies and muddies the water, the real numbers will never be known just look at how little casualties they are claiming on their side for the current war.

> or what the real support for Crimea joining Russia was?

Again because of the tactics the Russians use this will never be actually known. But maybe once Ukraine retakes Crimea we may know more.

Re:EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, a... by freeflight on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @08:02PM (#32174090)
> The Cold War got hot cause of Russia, no one else.

Because decades of NATO expansion have nothing to do with this [0], having literal NATO exercises at the border of Russia [1], just completely normal and not at all an escalation. Nobody ever warned about any of this, it just came completely out of nowhere [2].

While the US would have no issue with Russia holding military exercises in Mexico, and couping the Mexican government. It wouldn't react in any way, most certainly not with the military, it's not like we have a precedent like the Cuban missile crisis, and the US military illegally occupying parts of Cuba to this day, in a very similar way to what Russia has done to Crimea.

> Russia is solely responsible for this war.

Sure, as long as you just wholesale ignore and deny what actually led to the war and how it was an active choice by US officials to undermine a diplomatic and peaceful solution, brokered by the EU, because "Fuck the EU".

In that context most online debates about this topic are similarly dishonest and toxic as war on terror debates in the early 2000s were; Anybody who doesn't join in with the blatant jingoism shall be declared an "enemy supporter", back then it was "terrorist supporter" nowadays it's "Putin supporter" and allegedly the only way out of this is more conflict, more weapons, any diplomatic solution shall be considered "pro Russia propaganda" because the forever war can't stop.

In that context you might as well tell me about WMD in Iraq, that's the level of argument you can bring that solely rests on ignoring a coup and insisting how a civil war, resulting from that coup, is totally not a civil war.

[0] https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1997-jul-07-me-10464...

[1] https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/natosource/us-army-to-...

[2] https://www.nytimes.com/2001/12/13/international/bush-pulls-...

Re:EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, a... by _kbh_ on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @11:37PM (#32175482)
Your argument pretty much predicates itself on Ukraine not having agency to make decisions for itself.

Ukraine is free to lick whatever alliances it wishes to join.

> Because decades of NATO expansion have nothing to do with this [0], having literal NATO exercises at the border of Russia [1], just completely normal and not at all an escalation. Nobody ever warned about any of this, it just came completely out of nowhere [2].

Decades of NATO are literally driven by the current actions of Russia and the past actions of the USSR. To view this in a vacuum is disingenuous at best, and malicious at worst.

Those NATO exercises where in Ukraine in 2014. In what world is that on the border with Russia?. In it’s a _country_ that borders Russia far far away from the actual border, in Lviv on the border with _Poland_.

> While the US would have no issue with Russia holding military exercises in Mexico, and couping the Mexican government. It wouldn't react in any way, most certainly not with the military, it's not like we have a precedent like the Cuban missile crisis, and the US military illegally occupying parts of Cuba to this day, in a very similar way to what Russia has done to Crimea.

The worlds changed (at least outside of Russia). Since Cuba, if this is your best comparison maybe it’s a bet of a stretch. This comparison would also require Ukraine to plan to host US nukes to be comparable.

> Sure, as long as you just wholesale ignore and deny what actually led to the war and how it was an active choice by US officials to undermine a diplomatic and peaceful solution, brokered by the EU, because "Fuck the EU".

Sounds like your suggesting that Russia was forced to invade Ukraine and murder there citizens.

You need to remember that Russia has the ability to not invade and subjugate countries, although given their history this may be hard to believe.

Russia is solely responsible, no one else. Ukraines also had 3 elections since the revolution and different people got elected each time, amazing isn’t it.

Your source for [0] is from the 50s the world was a very different place back then.

Re:EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, a... by infamia on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @09:30PM (#32174704)
> Because decades of NATO expansion have nothing to do with this [0], having literal NATO exercises at the border of Russia

Putin has told the world many times that the Ukrainians (and other former Warsaw Pact countries) aren't real countries and destined to be colonies at best. All his actions align with these sentiments. For example, Belarus never threatened to join NATO, but they were invaded and subjugated all the same. This is 100% on Putin and Russia.

Re:EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, a... by ROTMetro on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @03:24PM (#32170883)
When Microsoft made claims like you are back in the day we called it FUD. Dude, our government in the USA is barely functional right now. If they can't pull together for basic necessities but pulls together to go to 'cold' war with Europe over business practices the normies here would revolt. People can't afford rent, food, but the government's focus is ensuring Apple's profits? Yeah, good luck getting the people to support that. "I'm sorry you are at your breaking point, but real issue is poor Apple's profit struggle in Europe!".
Re:EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, a... by colinmhayes on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @03:51PM (#32171237)
The government had no problem instituting mega sanctions on Russia, entire European will obviously be a harder political pill to swallow but really doesn’t seem out of the question.
Re:EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, a... by withinboredom on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @04:27PM (#32171819)
Oh man. You do realize that some 50% of GPS satellites are EU satellites right now? The US doesn’t even have a fully functioning constellation without the EU’s Galileo satellites (which are far more advanced in offering a cryptographically provable time). If the US were to go down that road, I’m fairly confident you’d have to go back to MapQuest and print out your directions.
Re:EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, a... by mschuster91 on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @04:13PM (#32171597)
The US barely traded with Russia anyway, and most of it was aircraft, vehicles and various services [1]. Sanctioning off Russia was and is easy for the US, the only major problem is the loss of soft power the US had with the OPEC and the resulting hike in oil prices.

The ones really affected by the sanctions are us Europeans.

[1] https://ustr.gov/countries-regions/europe-middle-east/russia...

Re:EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, a... by colinmhayes on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @04:21PM (#32171727)
Sanctioning Russia was a huge gamble in that it will likely lead to a heavily decreased reliance on USD globally as well as create competitors to swift which the us uses to enforce its hegemony.
Re:EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, a... by mschuster91 on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @04:48PM (#32172115)
The US dollar will always be the major currency of the world. What should replace it? The Euro is a good valuable currency, but we lack the military power that secures the US dollar plus we suffer from internal issues like the Italian debt that threatens to destabilize the Euro once again. Japan is a major economy, but still small and it has issues because its backing by the government is uncertain after "Abenomics" and the gerontification of Japanese society. The Chinese currencies suffer from cashflow control measures, and who the fuck would buy anything from Russia even if they had more to offer than barely functioning tanks, oil, gas and grain?
Re:EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, a... by theplumber on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @04:05PM (#32171466)
EU could break up the EU operations of the said company and it leaves it up to the company whether to break up in other parts of the world or just in Europe. Just think how many shell companies are created to dodge taxes. Same can be done here.
Re:EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, a... by antioppressor on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @03:19PM (#32170819)
They let these unregulated behemots to plunder effortlessly without any repercussions in the last 10 years or so. These rules are just topical treatment and came already too late.
Re:EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, a... by oaiey on Thursday July 21, 2022 @02:32AM (#32176432)
Well, they can leave the market. But the problem here is, that the EU concepts are often adapted elsewhere (e.g. GDPR is more or less adopted by California) especially, since these regulations often make sense and are not too political/onesided. GDPR - while we all hated it - make sense. This DMA - while it is extremely hurtful for the gatekeepers - make sense for the users.
Re:EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, a... by hamter on Thursday July 21, 2022 @07:05AM (#32177918)
> But the problem here is, that the EU concepts are often adapted elsewhere

oh no anything but that

Re:EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, a... by hnbad on Thursday July 21, 2022 @08:33AM (#32178535)
> GDPR - while we all hated it

Speak for yourself. Most users don't hate the GDPR, they hate the way companies tried to game it (very incompetently, I might add) by adding obtuse banners and modal dialogs.

As for companies: mostly US companies hated it because they previously got away with extremely abusive business models whereas EU companies were already facing similar regulations in individual EU member states.

Re:EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, a... by oaiey on Friday July 22, 2022 @12:44AM (#32188605)
Not speaking as a user but an architect needing to work it once though dozens of huge legacy systems .. as a user I love it. I am the biggest advocate.
Re:EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, a... by SiempreViernes on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @04:02PM (#32171409)
> It also starts to bother me quite a bit when we go from treating everyone equal before the law to creating certain requirements based on other factors.

Uh, are you secretly longing for filing the paperwork required to obtain Title V Operating Permit for a major air emission source, or is there some other reason you oppose the idea that different things will have to follow different laws?

Personally I think most people will agree that a company with 150000 employees (Google) is not the same thing as one with 750 (tinder).

Re:EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, a... by naasking on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @02:18PM (#32169962)
> Further it seems more like a moat to keep anyone else from getting as big as these "digital gatekeepers" are as suddenly when you get to a certain size you have an enormous expense.

Yes, and that's a good thing. It suppresses monopolistic tendencies before they can take hold, rather than trying to prove they are a monopoly and trying to figure out after the fact how to break them in a sensible way.

> If these companies really are that large that they have to get special laws for them isnt the solution to dissolve their monopoly and split the company up instead of starting to create separate classes of laws.

Why? All you're doing is letting that monopoly create the great device/service/whatever that lots of people seem to be enjoying, but levelling the playing field so they are still forced to compete for users instead of exploiting their monopoly power to kill any competition.

Encouraging competition is the ultimate goal because that's where the progress from capitalism comes from. If we can continue to encourage competition without going about the messy business of directly interfering with how a company is structured or how it operates, that seems like a win.

Re:EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, a... by mk89 on Thursday July 21, 2022 @04:51AM (#32177109)
Did you ever read Thinking in Systems (D. Meadows)? It's quite a nice read and there are some nice paragraphs about why we need rules to prevent or reduce monopolies.
Re:EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, a... by trh0awayman on Thursday July 21, 2022 @08:26AM (#32178494)
There are very real, very scary monopolies in Europe that are actually an issue that will never be dealt with. Whether or not iMessage can talk to Whatsapp has almost zero effect on my life.
Re:EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, a... by cm2187 on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @12:48PM (#32168483)
How do you break up the iphone? You create one company with a separate model of iphone for each country?
Re:EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, a... by colechristensen on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @01:36PM (#32169359)
Make the App Store a separate company from the one that sells you the phone and OS.
Re:EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, a... by gattilorenz on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @01:00PM (#32168700)
Hardware and software? But of course it's not an EU company
Re:EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, a... by bpye on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @08:08PM (#32174144)
I'm not sure how much that matters? Apple still have to abide by EU legislation to sell their products there.
Re:EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, a... by jszymborski on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @01:10PM (#32168875)
It's the difference between equality and equity.
Re:EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, a... by ClumsyPilot on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @03:28PM (#32170932)
there are two kinds of people in the world - those that think corporatuon are people, and those who haven't lost their mind.

I can't understand why would anyone apply narrative of systemic opression and social issues to corporations.

Re:EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, a... by jszymborski on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @04:07PM (#32171501)
I was responding to the claim that companies were treated unequally, which OP claimed was unjust. I'm simply stating that treating companies equitably, not equally, is just.

I understand that awareness of the importance of treating individuals equitably rather than equally has been increased in light of the increasingly public discourse on civil inequity, but these words have always existed outside that context to mean what they do.

The meaning of "equity" in a legal context according to the american heritage dictionary [0]: Justice achieved not simply according to the strict letter of the law but in accordance with principles of substantial justice and the unique facts of the case.

Not seeing how that requires me to anthropomorphise corporations.

Also, I kindly ask you to extend a bit of respect my way and not imply that I suffer from a mental illness because you disagree with me. It's not very civil.

[0] https://www.thefreedictionary.com/equity

Re:EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, a... by rch on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @02:32PM (#32170189)
Is being a gatekeeper a function of overall size, or market share in a given sector?

I may have missed the definition in the article, but my cynical take is that it seems geared towards getting companies that enjoyed dominance in the 90s back into the game now.

Re:EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, a... by cteiosanu on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @02:39PM (#32170291)
Check the infographic[1]. Gatekeepers are digital platforms :

• with over 45 mil active users • more than €7.5 billion turnover for the past 3 years

[1] https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/infographics/digital-mark...

Re:EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, a... by rch on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @04:01PM (#32171400)
I see now, thanks!

I'm getting more optimistic as I look into the details. Open messaging could be interesting, for instance.

Re:EU Digital Markets Act, aimed at Google, Apple, Amazon, a... by bluesign on Thursday July 21, 2022 @08:35AM (#32178558)
It will limit startup’s valuation for sure.

Valuation will limit startups chance to raise investment.

Less investment in general will limit startups runway.