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Re:Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten ... by nebula8804 on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @03:36AM (#32148587)
Don't forget low level embedded programmers, Kernel developers, and many who live in the world of coding in C/ASM.

I recall numerous instances in my undergraduate career where professors and the students passionate in these fields would actively persuade people who didn't get exposes to the stuff from even trying.

I remember one professor teaching an elective class on the Linux kernel and how he would try his best to scare people into dropping the class early on. We lost 25% of the class after the first lecture (and the only girl). To be fair the class was hardcore for the typical level of CS students you'd see in my school. It was painful but fun. I just wonder about the people who got scared away, maybe some of them could have really embraced the Kernel and become contributors.

To this day I see hostility among the low level crowd in my dealing with people in the industry. They think that because what they do is more complicated that writing a bog standard web app that they are special and should be left in their caves not to be disturbed.

On a different note: I feel this is playing at least a small part in hindering Linux adoption. I have dealt with the community on and off for over 10 years and just the level of negativity that comes out of that community has got to be putting off at least some people wanting to tip their toes in the water. We need to MLLGA: Make Low Level Great Again! At that starts with really welcoming normies with open arms and patience while they get over the initial hurdles.

Re:Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten ... by ChrisRR on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @03:53AM (#32148708)
We are currently having a hell of a time trying to hire embedded developers

We're looking for bare metal developers so basic SPI, I2C, UART knowledge is essential, but even in that realm it's surprising how many embedded devs can't work outside of an RTOS and lack basic hardware knowledge

Re:Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten ... by vitno on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @04:15AM (#32148841)
Pay better. It's totally possible that you are paying appropriately, but I've been disappointed with my most recent job search and am likely winding up doing backend work again simply because those roles pay almost double.
Re:Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten ... by stackbutterflow on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @05:33AM (#32149353)
They can't. Margins are thinner. Hardware companies have extra costs that software companies don't have.

I almost tripled my salary by moving from what the person your replied to is looking for to the web. AND it's easier. AND I can work remotely.

I don't blame them. But they'll be more and more desperate to attract people. The democratization of remote web jobs after COVID is another nail in the coffin. They pay less, 99% of the time you have to be in office. It's a losing battle.

Re:Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten ... by vitno on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @08:18AM (#32150449)
This frequently isn't true, although I'll admit it's industry dependent. This is the rhetoric used to depress the wages. Sure, they have extra costs but when you do the math, frequently the wages are still just a drop in the bucket of the operational expenditures.
Re:Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten ... by Ancalagon on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @11:42AM (#32153201)
Agreed, its the same tactic used in healthcare.
Re:Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten ... by Workaccount2 on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @09:42AM (#32151297)
I think the real issue is that software is way overpriced.
Re:Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten ... by ZephyrBlu on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @07:57PM (#32159547)
Software is underpriced for the value it generates.
Re:Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten ... by Workaccount2 on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @07:59AM (#32164464)
So is everything else, you just take it for granted at this point.
Re:Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten ... by naasking on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @09:27AM (#32151112)
> It's totally possible that you are paying appropriately

Doubtful. If anyone is having a hell of a time finding electrical engineers or embedded developers, then by definition that means the field isn't lucrative enough for people to stay in it. That's exactly the case I've seen repeated in every post in this thread.

Re:Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten ... by lelanthran on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @04:38AM (#32148984)
> We are currently having a hell of a time trying to hire embedded developers

I had a hell of a time getting a wage close to watch SWEs make. Hence I am no longer an embedded developer.

It's a no-brainer decision.

Re:Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten ... by monocasa on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @09:48AM (#32151380)
Previously the embedded/bare metal software lead for a high availability robotics system for almost a decade. Left that space for backend development because my pay literally tripled.

It's easy to think that you're just competing against the other EE job offers of $120k total comp, but you're actually also competing against the software positions those EEs could get with $300k total comp.

Re:Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten ... by marssaxman on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @06:33AM (#32149692)
I love bare metal work, and part of me would love to go back to it, but it's really hard to justify: hardware product cycles are extremely slow, full-time remote positions are unheard-of, and pay is no more than half of what you can get for much cushier work in the software world. It makes more sense as a hobby than a profession.
Re:Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten ... by stinos on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @04:52AM (#32149092)
We are currently having a hell of a time trying to hire embedded developers

In my opinion that is essentially almost the same problem, though depending on the university/courses followed. To be able to program bare metal one needs some knowledge of bare metal, which is what an EE has. To be able to program one also needs some programming knowledge, which most EEs have. However if you take a 'standard' software engineer then they often only have a clue about the latter.

Re:Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten ... by nibbleshifter on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @10:24AM (#32151966)
The EE's in both places I studied tended to come out as better low level programmers than the CS grads.

Most of the CS grads rarely touched C, and never ASM.

Re:Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten ... by Fordec on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @07:03AM (#32149888)
Hi there, I fit your bill.

Not interested though because after 9 years of sensor experience software just pays triple my best pay in those years with easier deliverables. Never again.

Re:Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten ... by robocat on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @12:40PM (#32154317)
There must be plenty of 50+ year old EE developers that can do that, probably very cynical neck-beards by now, or even retired. Most people move into better paying roles so it is hard to buy them, and you duck your resume by taking on low-paying work (even if you paid highly, the next gig won’t).

There was so much low-level microcontroller dev work in the past, but perhaps that has mostly moved overseas now?

I used to do that work and I am not working at present, but I’ve moved up the stack a long way since then, so my pay and working condition expectations are probably ridiculous. And I don’t want to move from New Zealand!

Re:Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten ... by midoridensha on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @09:55PM (#32160420)
I can do that kind of work. I regularly get recruiter emails for these jobs because my resume clearly shows I have experience in it. But the jobs are always some shitty contract job, and located in some stupid place I don't want to live (no remote work possible), and if the salary is given it sucks.

So I've been doing higher-level work for a long time now.

Re:Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten ... by c3bkr on Wednesday July 20, 2022 @04:52AM (#32163105)
I've been sending lots of resumes out to companies for embedded jobs since I'm looking for something new. I currently do embedded Linux but my education was EE so hardware isn't mysterious to me. Never-the-less I just get constant rejections, so not sure how desperate these employers are.
Re:Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten ... by kedikedi on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @11:46AM (#32153287)
I think I fit the bill! You can contact me if you want to have a discussion (details in bio)
Re:Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten ... by bowsamic on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @06:44AM (#32149755)
I had professors like that in physics but it was more of a comedic stunt than anything. Being scared of your course is something very relatable, so I thought it was quite entertaining to have a comical lecturer who was very humorous and yet brutal about the course. In the end the lecturer I had that was the most brutal about the course content of ended up not being a particularly bad exam.

If it’s not paired with humour though, it can be quite horrible

Re:Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten ... by retcon on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @04:22AM (#32148884)
I don't know when I first heard students boasting about these scare away intro lectures [0] but it was noticeable by the early eighties.

I've a few unsubstantiated hypotheses why:

Zero Sum Game taught by boomer parents conscious that the party was already over but would be sustained inevitably with increasing ruthlessness.[1]

Intellectual Property laws started slicing and dicing knowledge that became temporarily more valuable by fencing it in.

Higher Education caught performance metrics (without much if any performance pay) and so especially elite schools but eventually the rest cottoned onto input pre selection as a way of surviving.

Society became a overt lottery particularly for low income families. This placed the easy weight of the burden of responsibility of tutors on the side of direction to easier subjects.

I believe all these factors and more began compounding exponentially with the enclosures act imposition of a requirement for a degree for work with no or marginal utility for the same.

Marketing, loans and for a particularly insidious enclosures act, the UK's "classless society" introduction of University status not only for a tsunami of new institutions (the UK will now accredit degree granting university status in only two years..) and the white washing of the vocational STEM/ Engineering focused UK Polytechnic system (making them independent degree awarding institutions enabled diversification and dilution) which multiplied the demand for least effort maximum passing grade tertiary education throughout the world ,by the turn of this century to lamentable result.

[0] turning up next week seems to have been the objective of one I spoke with, to demean the honest and intimidated.

[1] The last market play I laid on with my late cofounder was in reaction to the dotbomb. Bought military tech suppliers :-| Point being we need the new program before we are fully grown up so to pass it on. With massive shifts to younger population and the current generation of middle aged folk being capitalized by three bull cycles the last two payable like a Japanese 80's mortgage, by the grandchildren, this means now.

Edit: second footnote placed and "enclosures act" gains a act adjectivally. Edit2 for work para7 Edit3 last para payable not relatable.

Re:Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten ... by pjc50 on Tuesday July 19, 2022 @05:01AM (#32149143)
I don't think it needs a big society explanation. I think it's a small scale machismo problem. People love gatekeeping fields: hobbies, fandoms, sports. Especially if it has in the past got flack for being "uncool".