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Re:Crypto Winter, or Crypto Ice Age? by pavlov on Thursday July 14, 2022 @09:24AM (#32095785)
Wire transfers in North America are literally 40 years behind the evolution of bank transfers in EU and UK.

Sending money in Europe is free and increasingly often instantaneous 24/7. It will be very difficult for crypto to reach the level of convenience available on unified infrastructure created through sensible regulation. Lacking that, maybe Americans will have to keep settling for all these clunky, incompatible intermediated patchwork solutions like Zelle and Venmo and USDC-on-Ethereum and whatever.

Re:Crypto Winter, or Crypto Ice Age? by dcolkitt on Thursday July 14, 2022 @10:03AM (#32096236)
But that's the point, crypto is a coordination mechanism that in most cases serves as an alternative when you don't have effective and trustworthy centralized institutions. It's pretty clear that (in this case) European financial regulators did a good job coordinating an effective and efficient electronic money transmission system.

But the whole world is not Sweden. Even in America, which is relatively first world with relatively decent institutions, our regulators failed to coordinate a decent electronic money transmission system. Now imagine being in Turkey or LatAm or Sri Lanka. (Or even just being in Europe and needing to interface with anywhere outside the European utopia.) Agree that decentralized protocols come with many inherent inefficiencies and frictions. But when institutions fail, the only alternative are decentralized protocols.

In many ways I see the pro- vs. anti- crypto division coming down to how much people believe in institutions. Most crypto criticisms come down to an appeal to just focus on building better institutions rather than waste mountains of talent on overly complex decentralized protocols. "Instead of all this on-chain stablecoin nonsense, why don't we focus our efforts on electing better financial regulators, who can bring European like money transfers to North America and eventually the globe?"

Whereas I think pro-crypto people (myself included), tend to think of any attempts to change public policy as /dev/null. Most of the world is saddled with horribly dysfunctional institutions, and it's not easy to fix. I have much more confidence in our ability to engineer solutions than mustering the necessary political and social coordination necessary to fix governments, policy, regulators and institutions.

Re:Crypto Winter, or Crypto Ice Age? by notyourav on Friday July 15, 2022 @03:38AM (#32105709)
I’m currently in Turkey. I can transfer funds from any bank account to another in about 1 sec., for a very low or no fee, 7/24. I can even withdraw money from an ATM w/o a card just by scanning a QR code from banks app. All merchants have adapted contactless visa etc.. payments. I honestly don’t see how crypto has a sliver of chance as payment alternative.
Re:Crypto Winter, or Crypto Ice Age? by whatisweb3 on Friday July 15, 2022 @03:49AM (#32105770)
What is your preferred way to transfer funds that can be received instantly in Canada, US, South America, UK and Europe?

Transferability is a basic primitive of crypto but not the only feature. Others like decentralized escrow and multi-signatory wallets achieve new functionality that is non trivial in traditional banking system.

Re:Crypto Winter, or Crypto Ice Age? by CaptainZapp on Friday July 15, 2022 @06:41AM (#32106737)
> Others like decentralized escrow and multi-signatory wallets

Uhh, multi-signatory bank accounts are about as old as banking.

Re:Crypto Winter, or Crypto Ice Age? by whatisweb3 on Friday July 15, 2022 @11:59AM (#32109464)
Old and clunky. Try setting up a multisig on the weekend with a few friends around the world, who all use different banks. It usually involves a lot of time, paperwork, lock-in to a single bank, monthly fees, sharing private data, and strict limitations on use.

In comparison you and several friends can set up a m-of-n account in a couple of transactions, closer to the flow and ease of setting up a new WhatsApp group.

Re:Crypto Winter, or Crypto Ice Age? by beepbeepcabbage on Saturday July 16, 2022 @01:28AM (#32115462)
I pay friends in the us regularly via Wise and PayPal and it arrives within seconds every time - all while crypto is folding, doing layoffs, running away with people's money etc.. it's not even a competition. I will take wise + Ideal any day over any crypto or US bank I have ever used.
Re:Crypto Winter, or Crypto Ice Age? by whatisweb3 on Saturday July 16, 2022 @08:40PM (#32123301)
Crypto is doing layoffs? It is a decentralized network; nobody is being “laid off” of Bitcoin or Ethereum.

The value fluctuates but this is where users would typically send USDC or DAI which is pegged to the dollar.

My crypto transfers also arrive in seconds and there is no US company extracting rent, blocking my funds, asking for third party data, or dictating how a payment protocol should operate.

Re:Crypto Winter, or Crypto Ice Age? by phyalow on Friday July 15, 2022 @09:25AM (#32107920)
Turkey? Good luck with the Lira.
Re:Crypto Winter, or Crypto Ice Age? by FabHK on Thursday July 14, 2022 @10:26AM (#32096467)
Good analysis, and you are right. I think purely technical attempts to solve current political/social problems are doomed, while better institutions can and have been built.

Now, what makes you think that the regulators in well-run countries will continue to accept this inefficient and unregulated money alternative full of scams?

Crypto currencies could be banned to quite an extent (mining, on/off ramps, maybe even the network traffic, which is unencrypted, if I am not mistaken.)

Re:Crypto Winter, or Crypto Ice Age? by aeternum on Thursday July 14, 2022 @02:00PM (#32099409)
Those countries that ban it will miss out on the economic value. Just as those countries that banned or did not invest in early internet infrastructure (for similar reasons) are now significantly behind.
Re:Crypto Winter, or Crypto Ice Age? by TrapLord_Rhodo on Thursday July 14, 2022 @07:28PM (#32102599)
> Now, what makes you think that the regulators in well-run countries will continue to accept this inefficient and unregulated money alternative full of scams?

You can always count on one thing in government. Profit Motive! Gerry ginsler was the professor of crypto at MIT for crying out loud. I'm sure US politicians have tons of BTC.

Re:Crypto Winter, or Crypto Ice Age? by peyton on Thursday July 14, 2022 @11:12AM (#32097027)
It’s banned in China AFAIK and people seem to use it there all the time.
Re:Crypto Winter, or Crypto Ice Age? by gjvnq on Saturday July 16, 2022 @02:54AM (#32115818)
Since you mentioned Latin America...

Brazil has had same business day electronic transfers (TED) since 2002 and next day electronic transfers (DOC) since 2001 or earlier. However people often didn't want to use them for small amounts because of the flat fee.

Brazilian also rarely use checks to pay rent, utilities and other similar stuff. Since 1993, we have a thing called boleto bancário which is like an invoice that has its own number and bar code ao that people can pay them at any bank (with some rare exceptions).

Brazil's Central Bank (BCB) recently-ish introduced Pix, a digital and near instantaneous electronic transfer scheme that is free for natural persons and that is supported by every bank and bank-like financial organizations due to a BCB imposition.

So overall I would say that banking in Brazil is way more standardized and practical than in the US.

Re:Crypto Winter, or Crypto Ice Age? by yunohn on Thursday July 14, 2022 @05:16PM (#32101561)
If it’s mainly about transferring money between participants, what is the point of each token having its own speculative value? Shouldn’t crypto be just stablecoins then?
Re:Crypto Winter, or Crypto Ice Age? by FabHK on Thursday July 14, 2022 @10:17AM (#32096370)
I think Paypal only got off the ground because the US banking system is so amazingly awful (compared to, say, continental Europe). Somewhat sad that it still seems to be the case.
Re:Crypto Winter, or Crypto Ice Age? by axg11 on Thursday July 14, 2022 @09:49AM (#32096075)
That's the point! Locally, there are great options almost everywhere. In Canada, I can e-transfer (Interac) anyone and the transfer is ~instant. Across borders the solutions are much worse. Crypto is the only payment rail that can realistically reach _everywhere_.
Re:Crypto Winter, or Crypto Ice Age? by quonn on Friday July 15, 2022 @09:58AM (#32108263)
And how often is that needed? And how often does it not also involve other issues, such as violating money laundering rules or tariffs?

Crypto is the only payment rail that is practically accepted nowhere (I cannot use it to pay 99,99% of the places I do business with).

Re:Crypto Winter, or Crypto Ice Age? by peoplefromibiza on Friday July 15, 2022 @01:46PM (#32110865)
more than 350 billion/year travel from US to Europe as payments for exported goods.

I think it already works...

locally in EU means SEPA is available in 36 countries (includes some non-euro area and non-EU countries) and to more than 500 million people.

Re:Crypto Winter, or Crypto Ice Age? by xur17 on Thursday July 14, 2022 @09:33AM (#32095896)
> Sending money in Europe is free and increasingly often instantaneous 24/7. It will be very difficult for crypto to reach the level of convenience available on unified infrastructure created through sensible regulation. Lacking that, maybe Americans will have to keep settling for all these clunky, incompatible intermediated patchwork solutions like Zelle and Venmo and USDC-on-Ethereum and whatever.

While true, I do think there is value in a permissionless protocol that anyone can plug into like this. Anyone in the world can send USDC to someone else (and any bank can integrate with this). The same can't be said for banking systems.

Re:Crypto Winter, or Crypto Ice Age? by closewith on Thursday July 14, 2022 @09:55AM (#32096142)
While there is value in the avoidance of Anti-Money Laundering and Know Your Customer regulations, it's also not a feature that bodes well for the future lawfulness of the ecosystem.
Re:Crypto Winter, or Crypto Ice Age? by sidpatil on Thursday July 14, 2022 @02:28PM (#32099753)
> Lacking that, maybe Americans will have to keep settling for all these clunky, incompatible intermediated patchwork solutions like Zelle and Venmo and USDC-on-Ethereum and whatever.

FedNow is supposed to launch in 2023.

https://www.frbservices.org/financial-services/fednow/about....

Re:Crypto Winter, or Crypto Ice Age? by dghlsakjg on Thursday July 14, 2022 @01:04PM (#32098693)
He lives in Canada.

Canadians don't live in the same country as Americans.

Canadians don't have the same banks as Americans.

Canadians can do money transfers instantly between any bank using e-transfer.

He was talking about transferring money out of the Canadian network of banks to a foreign entity (guessing based on it being denominated in USD).

As a European can you transfer money to, say, Vietnam without using clunky 40 year old technology like wires?

Re:Crypto Winter, or Crypto Ice Age? by spaceman_2020 on Thursday July 14, 2022 @07:02PM (#32102417)
International crypto transactions will likely be heavily regulated soon enough - the money laundering risk is too high.

Not to mention that money send to a crypto wallet also needs to be cashed out locally, which takes both fees and time. And god forbid your crypto exchange goes bankrupt or decide to pause withdrawals

Re:Crypto Winter, or Crypto Ice Age? by Ekaros on Friday July 15, 2022 @01:54AM (#32105025)
And the fact you are not moving insured money, but monopol money... Fiat really have quite many upsides when used with banks.
Re:Crypto Winter, or Crypto Ice Age? by bcrl on Thursday July 14, 2022 @09:08PM (#32103413)
I live in Canada. I can send a wire transfer internationally in 5 minutes from my couch on my laptop without breaking as sweat. The 40 year old technology works fine from a website.
Re:Crypto Winter, or Crypto Ice Age? by peoplefromibiza on Friday July 15, 2022 @01:50PM (#32110904)
> As a European can you transfer money to, say, Vietnam without using clunky 40 year old technology like wires?

clunky like for a flat fee of less than 5 euros available in a few hours as real money, directly available without having to setup anything?

the need for a new payment system not based on available infrastructure or an evolution of it is marginal at best.

Trivia: there is a video of Bezos telling the story of some customer sending money to buy books in the early days of Amazon hidden inside a 3.5' floppy disk.

Once they received the floppy they retrieved the money and shipped the books.

True or not, most things don't need nearly instant money transfer to work and that's a feature.

Re:Crypto Winter, or Crypto Ice Age? by pcthrowaway on Friday July 15, 2022 @01:47AM (#32104978)
> Canadians can do money transfers instantly between any bank using e-transfer.

Interesting, for me e-transfers usually take around 20-30 minutes to go through (where the other party receives the notification with the ability to deposit it).

I prefer using cryptocurrency for near-instant transfers for exactly this reason. When I've gone to pay for items via e-transfer there's a lot of waiting around for the other party to receive it (and ATMs generally limit your daily withdrawal amount, so for me, withdrawing cash isn't a good solution for purchasing things over $1000)

Re:Crypto Winter, or Crypto Ice Age? by Commodore63 on Thursday July 14, 2022 @01:53PM (#32099339)
The settlement delay isn't there for technological reasons. People think they want instant! fast! until they lose their life savings because libertarian tech has no buffers.
Re:Crypto Winter, or Crypto Ice Age? by anony23 on Thursday July 14, 2022 @02:00PM (#32099408)
I thought the settlement delay was so that the banks can squeeze out 72 more hours of interest.
Re:Crypto Winter, or Crypto Ice Age? by imtringued on Friday July 15, 2022 @02:36AM (#32105284)
No it is there for netting and clearing.
Re:Crypto Winter, or Crypto Ice Age? by ciupicri on Thursday July 14, 2022 @05:21PM (#32101602)
We must have different definitions of Europe because I live in Romania (which has been a member of the European Union since 2007) and yet even national transfers are not instantaneous if you're doing them in the evening, not to mention the weekend. And don't get me started with transfers to other European countries.

I also think you meant cheap, not free. By the way I find it funny that some banks tax the receiver, so in order to get money, you have to lose money :-)

Re:Crypto Winter, or Crypto Ice Age? by peoplefromibiza on Friday July 15, 2022 @01:53PM (#32110947)
SEPA is available in Romania.
Re:Crypto Winter, or Crypto Ice Age? by bearmode on Friday July 15, 2022 @07:18AM (#32106964)
In the UK they're still usually instantenous in the evening, and also completely free.
Re:Crypto Winter, or Crypto Ice Age? by ciupicri on Friday July 15, 2022 @07:35AM (#32107048)
Including for companies?
Re:Crypto Winter, or Crypto Ice Age? by 7steps2much on Friday July 15, 2022 @09:25AM (#32107925)
Can't speak for the UK, but at least in Austria a company bank account is no different from a personal bank account, at least as far as technology is concerned.

That said, I know at least a couple of (admittedly rather large/corporate) companies that explicitly opted out of instant transfers for some reason.

Re:Crypto Winter, or Crypto Ice Age? by ciupicri on Saturday July 16, 2022 @08:59AM (#32117595)
I can't comment on technologies, but the user interface for a business user might be different from that for a home user.

As for fees, they tend to lure individuals with free this, free that, while taking kidneys and other organs from businesses.

Re:Crypto Winter, or Crypto Ice Age? by kerng on Thursday July 14, 2022 @11:31AM (#32097330)
Maybe it will be like with China and cedit card usage. China just skipped credit cards and does everything in phone. They were behind, now they are leading the pack. Countries embracing crypto could go similar route.
Re:Crypto Winter, or Crypto Ice Age? by FalconSensei on Thursday July 14, 2022 @05:24PM (#32101635)
another way to read that is that you are not able to get food if your phone dies
Re:Crypto Winter, or Crypto Ice Age? by sdfhdhjdw3 on Thursday July 14, 2022 @11:54AM (#32097690)
Sending money in the UK is faster than it takes me to open the app on the phone to confirm it went thru.