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Re:As TikTok grows, so does suspicion by shikoba on Sunday July 10, 2022 @06:00PM (#32049530)
It is because China is the enemy. When it's Facebook or Google strangely it's never an issue. Moral is always a facade for international economic war. And some people fall for it.
Re:As TikTok grows, so does suspicion by pempem on Sunday July 10, 2022 @06:28PM (#32049797)
While most people on HN would agree that they would like more regulation of their data on FB and Google, these are largely still separate actors from the US government. You can even indicate that something like Cambridge Analytica is starting within a party, rather than the actual governing body.

There is too much sharing, IMO, without a doubt. That being said, they are not near synonymous as TikTok is.

Data regulation, privacy, influence through exposure are real issues worldwide. Tiktok has a raised profile due to its closeness with a governing state body.

Re:As TikTok grows, so does suspicion by Al-Khwarizmi on Sunday July 10, 2022 @06:35PM (#32049857)
The thing is that "government = bad" is typical American mindset. As another non-US, non-Chinese citizen, the fact that those megacorporations are independent from the government makes it worse, not better.

At least governments respond to their people (especially in the case of democracies, much less so for authoritarian governments, but they still have to worry a minimum to avoid revolution). Corporations respond to profit only, everything else be damned.

Re:As TikTok grows, so does suspicion by bko on Sunday July 10, 2022 @06:50PM (#32049976)
When Facebook starts opening concentration camps, I'm likely to agree with you.

> especially in the case of democracies, much less so for authoritarian governments, but they still have to worry a minimum to avoid revolution

What do you think is more likely to still be relevant in 100 years from now, China or Facebook? I think a 'revolution' is more likely to affect Facebook than China

Re:As TikTok grows, so does suspicion by formerkrogemp on Monday July 11, 2022 @08:14AM (#32055105)
> When Facebook starts opening concentration camps, I'm likely to agree with you

I wonder. If your product is used to recruit soldiers, spread propaganda, disseminate hate speech, and organize and deploy said concentration camps or their equivalent, are you liable and culpable? If you've known for years and done next to nothing about sectarian violence and genocide, are you still blameless? When moderation could have been hired and trained for an immaterial amount of profit? SEA wages are notoriously low in dollar terms. Poorly implemented machine learning models don't suffice to halt genocide. Greed, ignorance, malevolence, sloth, arrogance. Take your pick.

https://abcnews.go.com/Business/wireStory/kill-facebook-fail...

https://www.globalwitness.org/en/campaigns/digital-threats/r...

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/15/technology/myanmar-facebo...

Re:As TikTok grows, so does suspicion by echaozh on Monday July 11, 2022 @02:26AM (#32052876)
Hmm, you know corporations can run prisons, and they can fight in wars with mercenaries.
Re:As TikTok grows, so does suspicion by dnissley on Sunday July 10, 2022 @06:52PM (#32049998)
If a security hole was found in Google and in the US government, which do you think would respond in a way that would make that less likely to happen in the future?
Re:As TikTok grows, so does suspicion by pempem on Monday July 11, 2022 @05:59PM (#32062557)
I would strongly disagree

It is not that government = bad.

It is that government having data which allows for influence of people == destruction of democracy as the government is supposed to reflect the will of people rather than the other way around. It is an incredibly short path to: autocracy, oligarchies, dictatorships, etc.

Re:As TikTok grows, so does suspicion by arroz on Monday July 11, 2022 @02:00AM (#32052722)
government is not always bad

However government knowing about your private stuff is

Homophobic governments shouldn’t know about gay peoples privacy

Christian governments shouldn’t know about women’s abortion

The government can help, it shouldn’t get in the way — which is very much what can do under a dictatorship

Re:As TikTok grows, so does suspicion by Schroedingersat on Sunday July 10, 2022 @11:22PM (#32051837)
Just because the chinese oligarchs give themselves government titles and the US oligarchs do not is no reason to believe they're not the ones in control.
Re:As TikTok grows, so does suspicion by pempem on Monday July 11, 2022 @06:12PM (#32062703)
Love this point. So true, and so accurate.

That being said they are also highly disparate with a variety of motivations and are incredibly hard to whip (using this the way its used in congress) into directions that are nuanced. Things like "we wanna make more money" "regulations/unions are bad" ofc oligarchs in the US manage to see eye to eye on, but anything further nuanced - that class discipline - is harder to achieve in the US than China

Re:As TikTok grows, so does suspicion by alfiedotwtf on Sunday July 10, 2022 @06:42PM (#32049911)
> these are largely still separate actors from the US government

Yes they're separate actors, but programs like PRISM suggest that they're still on a very short leash

Re:As TikTok grows, so does suspicion by sneak on Sunday July 10, 2022 @07:47PM (#32050463)
Not just PRISM: Apple has actually been (presumably) forced to not publish e2e encryption software that the feds didn't want deployed, an example of prior restraint that is blatantly unconstitutional.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-apple-fbi-icloud-exclusiv...

Re:As TikTok grows, so does suspicion by pempem on Monday July 11, 2022 @06:10PM (#32062685)
Completely.

So much of this framing however is being pushed/forced/rulings or judgement driven decisions.

You get the sense that TikTok is like "cool, yeah, we'll add that to our roadmap"

Re:As TikTok grows, so does suspicion by bko on Sunday July 10, 2022 @06:47PM (#32049955)
I think there's a difference between a private company having my data and an adversarial government. The company has a clear motive, profit. They're lawful neutral. An adversarial government may be chaotic evil. I don't know why this isn't obvious.

Wasn't everyone freaking out just a few years ago when Russian government was manipulating people with political groups on Facebook? And that's even with Facebook's earnest effort to prevent these things. With this company, there's a direct tie in with an adversarial government.

Yes, ideally I don't want anyone to have my data, but lets not pretend Zuck and CCP are the same thing

Re:As TikTok grows, so does suspicion by Ozzie_osman on Sunday July 10, 2022 @09:06PM (#32051044)
> Wasn't everyone freaking out just a few years ago when Russian government was manipulating people with political groups on Facebook?

Yes, if by everyone you mean Americans, because their country was the target. There are many countries where media has been manipulated by the CIA, too.

Re:As TikTok grows, so does suspicion by arroz on Monday July 11, 2022 @02:02AM (#32052734)
If you think Russia has only meddled with American election, you are crazy
Re:As TikTok grows, so does suspicion by Miner49er on Sunday July 10, 2022 @07:00PM (#32050071)
I'm the opposite. I would much rather have the CCP have my data then a US based company like FB. Unless I travel to China, what are the CCP going to do to the average American with their data? Whereas, in the US, the data could be used in the future to prosecute me for my political views or whatever with law changes.
Re:As TikTok grows, so does suspicion by arroz on Monday July 11, 2022 @02:05AM (#32052747)
The CCP can try to instigate chaos

Can try to instigate hate

Extremism

Cause democracy to fall

Make people feel hopeless in a possible future war, and just give up before trying so they can achieve their goals with ease

Re:As TikTok grows, so does suspicion by bko on Sunday July 10, 2022 @07:21PM (#32050238)
The CCP could be actively trying to get you hate your neighbor and spread disinformation. That could be a byproduct of either group, but it is more likely to be an explicit goal of CCP. Here's a gem from the WHO in January 2020. This was almost certainly known to be a lie to the CCP based on their actions at the time

> Preliminary investigations conducted by the Chinese authorities have found no clear evidence of human-to-human transmission of the novel #coronavirus (2019-nCoV) identified in #Wuhan, #China.

https://twitter.com/who/status/1217043229427761152

Re:As TikTok grows, so does suspicion by Schroedingersat on Sunday July 10, 2022 @11:48PM (#32051968)
Yes, private companies like blackwater, shell, bp, dutch east india, coca cola, nestle, amazon, or facebook never participate in fascist propaganda campaigns or organize coups, hire mercenaries to kill unionizing (or just competing) workers, murder, or steal. And facebook didn't promote lies and propaganda during the pandemic at all /s

The CCP is at least very indirectly accountable to their own people and holds their country's long term interests in mind even if they do not care about the people and hold the usual abhorrent views of authoritarians towards minorities. This is extremely evil, but pales in comparison to an unaccountable corporate entity with what little human oversight it has steered by a combination of narcissists, neofuedalists and literal apocalypse cultist theocrats.

Re:As TikTok grows, so does suspicion by gsatic on Sunday July 10, 2022 @07:09PM (#32050147)
Cool pov. Take my upvote. But of course never going to happen. Tribal instincts, schizmogenisis etc
Re:As TikTok grows, so does suspicion by pyuser583 on Sunday July 10, 2022 @08:30PM (#32050790)
According to my very old Players Handbook, leaders of tyrannical states are lawful evil.

“Lawful” or “chaotic” relate to whether the character embrace order.

Re:As TikTok grows, so does suspicion by klibertp on Monday July 11, 2022 @04:26AM (#32053603)
Also people who move based on only their own profit are neutral evil. In other words: just evil.
Re:As TikTok grows, so does suspicion by DavidSharff on Sunday July 10, 2022 @07:19PM (#32050229)
I agree about the contradictions and hypocrisy but the answer can be much more pragmatic:

> As a non-US, non-Chinese citizen, is there something that makes TikTok espionage and Facebook not? Or is it just "china scary"?

There's problems with US big tech and TikTok but the case against TikTok is easier to push through.

There's nothing wrong with patching the first of many holes in your roof and starting with the one easiest to get to.

---------

My primary emotional and ethical driver is to point out my own government (the US) not living up to its marketing material, but it doesn't mean I wouldn't support eliminating a vector for another (openly autocratic) government to meddle with my country as well.

Edit: distinguish my reply to prior comment from my ramblings about my reply.

Re:As TikTok grows, so does suspicion by phyrex on Sunday July 10, 2022 @06:49PM (#32049964)
How are they “The Enemy”? Are they coming and killing Americans or is it just generic xenophobia?
Re:As TikTok grows, so does suspicion by jes on Sunday July 10, 2022 @07:56PM (#32050559)
I found this[1] report (PDF) from the DEA:

"Currently, China remains the primary source of fentanyl and fentanyl-related substances trafficked through international mail and express consignment operations environment, as well as the main source for all fentanyl-related substances trafficked into the United States. Seizures of fentanyl sourced from China average less than one kilogram in weight, and often test above 90 percent concentration of pure fentanyl."

Presumably, if the CCP wanted to do so, they could put an end to the groups shipping this deadly substance into the United States.

1. https://tinyurl.com/4396s38r

Re:As TikTok grows, so does suspicion by burntbridge on Sunday July 10, 2022 @09:43PM (#32051262)
>Presumably, if the CCP wanted to do so, they could put an end to the groups shipping this deadly substance into the United States.

Presumably, if the United States wanted to do so, they could put an end to the groups shipping this deadly substance from the China.

Just changed the wording a little to show the bias in this sentence. Why do think China would be more successful than the U.S. in prohibiting illegal drugs?

Re:As TikTok grows, so does suspicion by Dylan16807 on Monday July 11, 2022 @01:19AM (#32052508)
Are they being imported by "groups" the same way?

This is assuming manufacturing is being done by large groups... but it usually is. Manufacturing tiny amounts is much much harder than importing tiny amounts.

Re:As TikTok grows, so does suspicion by lmz on Monday July 11, 2022 @03:17AM (#32053227)
Good. Let the American's own addictions kill them off. Don't forget China's own history with the Opium wars versis the British.
Re:As TikTok grows, so does suspicion by echaozh on Monday July 11, 2022 @02:56AM (#32053095)
Currently in 2020. Later the primary source becomes India. China actually did put an end to the shipping.
Re:As TikTok grows, so does suspicion by shikoba on Monday July 11, 2022 @07:51AM (#32054886)
Economically speaking China is the enemy of occident, probably bigger than Russia.
Re:As TikTok grows, so does suspicion by vinyl7 on Sunday July 10, 2022 @06:54PM (#32050023)
Economic enemy
Re:As TikTok grows, so does suspicion by sumnole on Sunday July 10, 2022 @10:00PM (#32051357)
This just isn't true for anyone but die hard nationalists. The average citizen has no reason to care what country their products and services are coming from. It's better that the world trade and communicate beyond borders. Calls for banning Tik Tok are coming from people afraid of fair international competition.