News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:The trimodal nature of software salaries in the Netherlan... by ido on Saturday July 02, 2022 @03:12PM (#31961505)
Maybe they do, maybe not? I mean that is exactly the same argument SFBA-based engineers can also claim. I believe it is mostly untrue.

When I studied in Vienna a fellow student of mine returned to Poland after uni because his wife wanted to & we both started our first jobs as juniors at the same time with comparable positions, me in Vienna and him in Gdansk. His salary was almost exactly 1/3 of mine & I don't believe there was any performance component to that, I was simply earning according to Viennese standards and he according to Gdansk standards.

Re:The trimodal nature of software salaries in the Netherlan... by moonchrome on Saturday July 02, 2022 @03:16PM (#31961528)
In more recent times (especially post COVID), by the time both of you are competent enough be independent he will be earning as much as you for 1/3 cost of living.
Re:The trimodal nature of software salaries in the Netherlan... by ido on Saturday July 02, 2022 @03:19PM (#31961547)
Cost of living in Poland is not actually 1/3 of Austria, the difference in cost is much smaller than in salary. But it's true that the more senior you are the less geography affects your wage.
Re:The trimodal nature of software salaries in the Netherlan... by moonchrome on Saturday July 02, 2022 @03:25PM (#31961600)
Austria != Vienna, similar to how London != UK.

Equating for standard of living (eg upper middle class) you'll likely be 3x in Vienna. Although I'm just guestinating on Gdansk, maybe it's a really expensive place.

Re:The trimodal nature of software salaries in the Netherlan... by V-2 on Saturday July 02, 2022 @04:45PM (#31962207)
I don't believe the difference is anywhere near 300%. Maybe 20 years ago.

Let's keep Vienna for comparison, but benchmark it against Warsaw (also substantially more expensive than the rest of the country). According to the data on Numbeo, "you would need around 2,562.64€ (12,036.56zł) in Warsaw to maintain the same standard of life that you can have with 4,000.00€ in Vienna". Making Warsaw only 1.5x cheaper.

Gdańsk is probably in the top 5 most expensive ones (meaning cheaper than Warsaw), more or less at a level you'd expect from a city of that relative size (at roughly 450k inhabitants it's the 6th most populous in the country).

Re:The trimodal nature of software salaries in the Netherlan... by moonchrome on Saturday July 02, 2022 @04:58PM (#31962337)
OK - so roughly 2x. 1/3 was an exaggeration in reply to his 1/3 salary, but I actually did these calculations a couple of years ago and it wasn't that far off, I'm from Croatia and before settling down I considered moving to Western Europe. Turns out when I started freelancing and took advantage of low corporate income tax here (10% below 1M EUR/year and 10% gains tax) - the math for moving abroad never checked out - I made more money than my friends who moved to Germany/Ireland even before COVID, and it's just been getting easier with the move to remote working (that's commenting purely on cost of living/lifestyle I can afford - there are other factors to consider in these decisions).
Re:The trimodal nature of software salaries in the Netherlan... by ido on Saturday July 02, 2022 @03:28PM (#31961616)
Austria is a lot less variable than the UK, and Vienna is not really the most expensive city there at all (generally the further west you go the more expensive it gets). I'm pretty sure a lot of the smaller cities like Salzburg and Innsbruck are actually more expensive than Vienna and not at all certain Vienna is much or at all above the Austrian average (or at least urban average).
Re:The trimodal nature of software salaries in the Netherlan... by yrgulation on Saturday July 02, 2022 @04:15PM (#31961963)
With the risk of sounding rude i am not even sure why austria is part of this debate as its totally irrelevant on the tech scene.
Re:The trimodal nature of software salaries in the Netherlan... by ido on Saturday July 02, 2022 @04:25PM (#31962028)
It’s simply a Westen European country I lived in, sorry I never lived and went to Uni + worked in the Netherlands to give a more topical example. My point was that borders are unfair in terms of compensation not just to Western Europeans but to a lot(most?) other people in the world outside [west coast/big city) Americans. And that true globalization will equalize things not only upward.
Re:The trimodal nature of software salaries in the Netherlan... by yrgulation on Saturday July 02, 2022 @04:37PM (#31962145)
Well austria is firmly central european.

Dont worry, old tech will always tend to become cheaper. Once countries such as austria take the lead on new tech pay will follow. The us and uk have invested massively in modern technologies. Actually the uk started the trend with its industrial revolution and the us overtook it thanks to its size and dna engraved appetite for risk and innovation.

To increase your pay, austria would have to be less rigid and more open to risk. That will lead to the creation of more modern startups and more demand for your skills. Dont give into anti globalisation conspiracy theories as globalisation is benefiting austria by giving it access to vast markets. But since austria is mainly relying on old tech its now losing ground as it hasnt got much to sell.

Re:The trimodal nature of software salaries in the Netherlan... by ido on Saturday July 02, 2022 @04:53PM (#31962288)
I haven’t lived in Austria in almost a decade, I simply used it as an example than salaries in Europe aren’t just lower than in the US but also higher than other places. Equitable pay means equalizing with everyone not just those above you.
Re:The trimodal nature of software salaries in the Netherlan... by varispeed on Saturday July 02, 2022 @05:06PM (#31962415)
You can compare cost of living to an extent - assuming, for instance, that the worker won't go on holiday anywhere nice.

Checked at one of known tour operators, for the same hotel and destination in the Caribbean, same duration and dates you will pay ~£2900 when going out from London and £4900 when going out from Cracow.

Things like tech products will also cost broadly the same.

Also engineers these days don't live like upper middle class (unless they come from such background). It's more like upper working class. Progressive taxation prevents workers from amassing capital and climbing the class ladder.

People from upper middle classes get paid in ways out of scope of progressive taxes designed to keep working class in check.

Re:The trimodal nature of software salaries in the Netherlan... by moonchrome on Sunday July 03, 2022 @01:59AM (#31965456)
>You can compare cost of living to an extent - assuming, for instance, that the worker won't go on holiday anywhere nice.

But that's my point - as you get more experienced your net salary levels by remoting and you have lower cost of living - you actually have larger discretionary budget for vacations.

>Also engineers these days don't live like upper middle class (unless they come from such background). It's more like upper working class. Progressive taxation prevents workers from amassing capital and climbing the class ladder.

>People from upper middle classes get paid in ways out of scope of progressive taxes designed to keep working class in check.

True as well, which is why moving to Western Europe never made sense to me - as a freelancer I get to claim most of my income as company profits - taxed ~20% locally - vs. ~50% if it was income tax. And I can afford private health care/kindergarten/schools so the shit public care isn't an issue either.

Re:The trimodal nature of software salaries in the Netherlan... by 988747 on Saturday July 02, 2022 @03:18PM (#31961538)
How long ago was that? Are you guys still in touch? Because it seems to me that recently developer salaries in Poland matched or even surpassed those in Austria :)
Re:The trimodal nature of software salaries in the Netherlan... by ido on Saturday July 02, 2022 @03:21PM (#31961562)
It was maybe 15 years ago, but today instead of Poland it would be some poor Asian country. My point is that it's not just that Europeans earn less than Americans, they also earn more than other regions. If you want fairness that also applies to people under you, not just people above you.
Re:The trimodal nature of software salaries in the Netherlan... by sealeck on Saturday July 02, 2022 @03:40PM (#31961724)
I don't think this is likely to be true at a population level; Austria is a much richer country than Poland; has a much higher standard of education and in other sectors salaries are usually higher in Austria than Poland.
Re:The trimodal nature of software salaries in the Netherlan... by V-2 on Saturday July 02, 2022 @04:37PM (#31962137)
What exactly implies Austria has a "much higher standard of education" than Poland?

For example in the most recent PISA rating the average score of mathematics, science and reading is 513 for Poland (11th in the world) and 491 for Austria (28th place).

Re:The trimodal nature of software salaries in the Netherlan... by sealeck on Sunday July 03, 2022 @07:15AM (#31966830)
Sorry, perhaps I should have said, people in Austria are less over educated (i.e. at the same education level Austrians earn more than Poles).
Re:The trimodal nature of software salaries in the Netherlan... by BossingAround on Saturday July 02, 2022 @04:11PM (#31961931)
From my experience, it's more the culture rather than education that forms "suboptimal" engineers. After all, engineers mostly learn from online resources in English anyways, so the quality of formal education doesn't come to play that much (and for the record, I don't really believe that the top tech uni in Vienna is leaps and bounds better than the top tech uni in Krakow).

It's the work culture in smaller cities that'll probably make the population differences.

Re:The trimodal nature of software salaries in the Netherlan... by 988747 on Saturday July 02, 2022 @03:55PM (#31961810)
Agree that this isn't likely to be true at population level - I was talking about Software Developers specifically.

Disagree on "much higher standard of education" - even if Austria comes on top, it's just barely, not by a lot.

Re:The trimodal nature of software salaries in the Netherlan... by yrgulation on Saturday July 02, 2022 @04:07PM (#31961901)
I dont know where op gets their stats but pay in austria is by no means competitive. I know of a romanian dude who interviewed for a company there. Pompous session, ties, suit and the stench of a rigid hierarchy. Once they made their offer he laughed and told them he’d earn twice as much for the same (tech) job in romania. Perhaps an isolated case but DACH countries have an inflated sense of superiority not matching reality, at least in software tech. Interestingly i see many of them crapping on east europeans on this forum. Perhaps due to a sense of insecurity, but would be interesting if someone pulled some stats on how often they pull the east european “poverty” or “corruption” card out of their behind.
Re:The trimodal nature of software salaries in the Netherlan... by ChuckNorris89 on Saturday July 02, 2022 @04:25PM (#31962034)
>Once they made their offer he laughed and told them he’d earn twice as much for the same (tech) job in romania. Perhaps an isolated case

Definitely not an isolated case. Austrian tech companies generally pay shit and are usually pretty backwards and burocratic due to the management heavy culture from the 20th century factories (WFH is frowned upon and your time in the office is tracked instead of looking at employee output) and highly conservative culture in general (everyone still uses cash). Also they put far too much value in having advanced degrees from their local universities rather than looking at experience and practical skills, so you end up in credential inflation town with colleagues who scuff at your code or technical opinions, because they "have a PhD from TU Sturmfart, and you don't".

That explains why they have virtually no internationally successful local SW companies (unlike other small EU companies like Netherlands or Finland, or even poorer Estonia), and instead have just a bunch of mom and pop webshops, crusty ERP boyshops for local factories, and their outdated banking industry that can't even get stock trading and banking apps right and instead need to rely on the German Flatex and N26. Their only unicorn, Bitpanda, recently fired half the workforce, which they easily could because Austrian employees have virtually no protection against termination, so your employer can fire you without any reason with the 1-3 month notice period. The cherry on top is that non-competes are legal here and employers can choose to enforce them, which, as we know, is what made SV the cradle of innovation. /s I rest my case.

QOL is generally good there and you can live well there, provided you do anything but tech, ideally work for the state or government enterprises and coast till retirement on your inherited real estate.

Re:The trimodal nature of software salaries in the Netherlan... by EUROCARE on Saturday July 02, 2022 @04:29PM (#31962057)
This matches my experience, and also consider: I'm paying less than 8% income tax and health and social insurance combined on my income in the CEE country where I live. What's the tax and insurance in DE and A?
Re:The trimodal nature of software salaries in the Netherlan... by sealeck on Sunday July 03, 2022 @07:13AM (#31966817)
If you look at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_by_... it's pretty clear that the average monthly salary in Austria (adjusted for purchasing power parity) is roughly 2x that in Poland.
Re:The trimodal nature of software salaries in the Netherlan... by rocgf on Saturday July 02, 2022 @03:17PM (#31961532)
Your example is anectodal, hence basically worthless.

There is a lot of inefficieny in the market, some of it inherent, some of it due to artifical constraints like location, but over time those tend to naturally get normalized. What I'm trying to say is that if it really were better for software to be built in Vietnam for 10% of the cost, that would just happen.

It may be that companies have not figured out this neat trick or it might be that there are some inherent issues with developing software based purely on the cost.

Re:The trimodal nature of software salaries in the Netherlan... by ido on Saturday July 02, 2022 @03:22PM (#31961571)
My point was that this applies exactly the same for why European salaries are lower than American salaries. It makes no sense but it equally doesn't make sense that Europeans earn more than Asians or Africans. If you want equality it doesn't just mean you get to equalize with the top end, it also means the bottom gets to equalize with you.
Re:The trimodal nature of software salaries in the Netherlan... by sealeck on Saturday July 02, 2022 @03:41PM (#31961733)
lmao the free market does not exist.