If you can't trust a highschool aged kid to go to school on their own, early start times aren't going to change anything. Heck, you can drive them to the building and watch them walk inside and they'll just walk right out the back. Delinquent kids dgaf. Now for the not totally delinquent but still up for sketchy borderline behaviour kids, finishing early and having couple hours between the end of class and when their parents come home from work is when all the dumb stuff happens. Sleeping in and getting home around the same time as their parents leaves a lot fewer opportunities for hijinks.

If the kids really have a hard time waking up (the point t of this law), then it's possible they over sleep. Many parents might not be comfortable with their kid cooking breakfast unsupervised too.

If they're in after school activities and/or have a job, then it seem unlikely that they would get into trouble anyways. Pushing the time back will make these after school activities unfeasible for many, and limit opportunities.

I'm failing to reconcile the image of a hypothetical teenager who is both so irresponsible and incompetent that you can't trust them to get up or make breakfast on their own without burning down the house while simultaneously being capable of having an after school job.

If you can't leave them unsupervised in the mornings, surely they can't be left alone after school either. Net net, there's going to be some time they're unsupervised. May as well let them get some rest. Maybe the lack of sleep deprivation will even encourage better decision-making.

They don't need to be the same kid.

After school has after school activities. It also typically means they don't need to cook if the parents are home for dinner.

Use an alarm. Eat cereal. Use the microwave. These are all non problems that any half functioning adult or high school kid can think of solutions to.

If the kids are really so sleep deprived that we need a law about it, then it's likely some will sleep past their alarms.

Dictating diet by limiting options doesn't sound like a great plan to me.

You know what else is a non-problem? The current start times.

I see the argument you are making and just want to suggest that this law is trying to help out the kids who are both capable of getting to school on their own regardless of start time, who would also benefit from the extra sleep. I suspect that this is the majority of the population of teenagers. Public schools are not really a free market where kids get to pick and choose based on features like start times. Most are selected because it is the only practical option for the family's means. In the absence of market pressure, using legislation to improve people's lives isn't wrong.

If this is such a contentious issue, then why not allow the parents in each district to decide? That's really what I'm getting at - the state is making this decision for everyone by usurping the parents representation at the district level.

If it is such a contentious issue, then why go through all the extra time and effort to decide it for each and every district? Parents still have a voice and vote at the state level do they not?

Because what works for one district might not work for another based on the demographics and culture of the location.

Their voice at the state level is highly diluted by non-interested parties. Voting for school board members tends to be more focused and doesn't have as many people voting based on non-school issues like you would for a general representative.

These are high school students they are going to be living on their own soon. I think being able to feed themselves is a skill they should probably develop.

One could argue that being at school at 8am is a valuable skill they should since most jobs require that (or earlier) start time.

my ten year can cook breakfast, on a gas stove too. and besides there are plenty of breakfast options that don't require cooking. worst case, they reheat in the microwave what parents cooked earlier.

if a 15 year old can't be unsupervised at home, then their parents have different problems besides letting them cook for themselves.

>Not all high schoolers are mature enough to be left alone and go to school

As an anecdote, 100% of my class was coming to the school and back without being supervised since age 8. This was in 90s and not in the US, but the gap of "mature enough to go to school" between my experience and the statement feels a bit high, somehow.

Yep. And it’s 100% normal for early prior year school aged kids in Japan to cross town on the subway on their own. The American obsession with helicoptering their kids all the way through their first job is super weird and unhealthy.

Could we just stop? Please? I know it's cool to talk shit about Americans constantly but it gets old. I want to expect better from HN.

> The American obsession with helicoptering their kids all the way through their first job is super weird and unhealthy.

My kids, along with many others, were getting themselves to & from school without my supervision starting in third grade. Earlier, even, for my son since his sister is two years older and was with him.

This is normal. What is the fascination that so many Europeans (and others) have with making wild unsupported assertions about what Americans do and then build an entire critique from that?

I’m American and I’ve seen enough helicopter stupidity over the years to be confident saying it’s a problem. Is it the norm? Maybe not. But it’s common enough to be a thing.

Most of the helicopter stupidity i see comes from people without kids. As in, you're a terrible parent because you weren't constantly watching your kids and they did something kids do that I don't like.

the fascination comes from all these stories here:

https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...

Late 80s, Netherlands. As of the age of 6, I was free roaming on my tiny bicycle. I could go wherever I please, zero supervision, just be back in time for diner. And of course without any technology (smartphone).

Modern parents would have a heart attack.

Yes, maturity in the US seems delayed compared to many places. I feel it's because the laws and nosy neighbors have basically made it impossible to give kids responsibility. Nobody wants to hire kids because of the labor laws. Kids don't want to work because they get everything handed to them or the cost of stuff like transportation is too high. Let your young kid play alone? You might have the cops called on you.

>Not all high schoolers are mature enough to be left alone and go to school.

That's insane. I walked to school at 6. At 8, I walked to the bus stop and rode a public transit bus to school. The helicoptering has gone way to far and it is creating generations of crippled kids. I wonder if this is solely caused by the media pushing fear or if there are other factors.

I agree. We need to change the laws, case law, and societal expectations to stop threatening parents over lack of supervision.

We’re talking about a pretty small window of time. 2 hours at most. And a kid who’s going to willfully skip school is going to do so whether or not school starts at 8:30 instead of 7:30.

In most cases, this should work out better for parents. With elementary school starting latest (as was the norm in many places a decade ago), the little kids end up in pre-care AND after-care. Now, they’ll start earlier, possibly avoiding pre-care.

Two hours is plenty of time for mischief, and skipping school isn't the concern. Source: Made a lot of mischief in my youth.

Sure, but you probably would have gotten up to mischief regardless of the first bell. And in the case of the morning, would you choose mischief or an extra hour of sleep? Just a guess, but I bet most kids take the sleep.