News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Apple is not defending browser engine choice by isodev on Friday June 24, 2022 @08:10AM (#31860571)
If you've checked mdn or caniuse anytime in the last 2-3 years, you'd notice that Safari has been leading the gang in standard web feature adoption.

Safari offers the most refined developer experience for web dev and testing (my favourite are the automation capabilities which are incredible and private as it separates my data from test data during a run). With technology preview updates delivered directly in macOS, I'm always confident I have the latest setup to test my web apps...

Re:Apple is not defending browser engine choice by mtomweb on Friday June 24, 2022 @09:51AM (#31861807)
You've got be joking right? ok so lets go through some stats:

1. Safari, performs worst on wpt.fyi by a VERY wide margin 2. In State of CSS last year had the most number of complaints in relation to bugs. 360 related to Safari, compared to 30 for chrome and 10 for firefox. 3. In the MDN developer Survey developers ranked Safari as the second biggest problem after IE. A browser that's no longer supported. 3. Doesn't really support Web Apps, no user findable method of install (install prompts), no push notifications. 4. Huge numbers of bugs (some of which haven't been fixed in over 7 years) 5. and the devtools are still far behind chromes. 6. and missing all of these: Notifications / Push API No AppStore Support App Store Support for Web Apps Fullscreen API Badging Deep Links Screen Orientation Lock Bluetooth NFC Web Share Target Screen Wakelock Keyboard Lock and Keyboard Layout APIs getInstalledRelatedApps() Background Fetch API Background Sync API WebGPU WebXR Offscreen Canvas Declarative Shadow DOM SQL SIMD WASM Threads Shared Array Buffers AV1/AVIF and VP8/VP9/WebP (Open Media Codecs) Compression Streams Scoped Custom Element Registry ElementInternals

Re:Apple is not defending browser engine choice by isodev on Friday June 24, 2022 @11:11AM (#31863451)
I'm not joking.

You can see other replies for details lists of functionalities and capabilities often pioneered and supported by Safari long before other browsers (even Firefox).

Some loud voices from the community have very selective memory, and they momentarily forget all the evilness pumped into Chrome regularly. (remember FLoCs? Advertising API? AMP?)

All that hate for Safari can be much more productive if channeled as constructive feedback on browsers' bug trackers and governance discussions, improving the ecosystem as a whole (which is what you want if you care for the web). Such conversations can even lead to the natural evolution of standards and implementations towards more refined engine customizations on each platform.

Today, iOS allows for open browser choice on iOS, so any technical requirements for the implementation are of no meaningful consequence to iOS users. Everyone can get the look, feel, and service integration with their preferred vendor's ecosystem. Consumers and developers also get a consistent experience throughout the entire operating system - a piece of content will appear the same in any context. Simple, efficient, and reliable. All this will be lost the moment someone decides to prop a "To view this website, download browser XYZ." Imagine you are faced with this in a stressful situation when you need your phone to work the most.

Re:Apple is not defending browser engine choice by GeekyBear on Friday June 24, 2022 @02:40PM (#31867416)
> Some loud voices from the community have very selective memory, and they momentarily forget all the evilness pumped into Chrome regularly. (remember FLoCs? Advertising API? AMP?)

Hell, remember logging users into Chrome without permission because they logged into a Google website like Gmail and then "accidentally" synching all the user's bookmarks and browser history to Google?

Re:Apple is not defending browser engine choice by mtomweb on Friday June 24, 2022 @11:54AM (#31864230)
iOS does not allow for any meaningful choice, it’s all basically Safari.

Says who?

Mozilla, Google, Microsoft, EFF, the uk regulator, the Japanese regulator, the EU and most importantly the group of people who actually build web software on iOS.

Re:Apple is not defending browser engine choice by mtomweb on Friday June 24, 2022 @11:55AM (#31864250)
As for feedback. we gave up after 10 years. That’s literally how long we’d been asking for notifications.
[dead]
Re:Apple is not defending browser engine choice by simonh on Saturday June 25, 2022 @08:50AM (#31874877)
I happen to largely agree with your position on that, but do not post comments like this here. Seriously, please do not do it.
Re:Apple is not defending browser engine choice by isodev on Friday June 24, 2022 @12:25PM (#31864943)
I wish :-). I'm just a dev on the other side of the world.
Re:Apple is not defending browser engine choice by dmitriid on Friday June 24, 2022 @10:39AM (#31862675)
> Bluetooth NFC

Chrome-only non-standards that both Firefox and Safari are against.

> Declarative Shadow DOM

Actually proposed by Safari, and stalled for multiple reasons. Moreover, at the start of the whole web component brouhaha Safari wanted to have declarative ways of specifying Web Components, but Chrome said "no, we want to move fast and break things"

> WebGPU

Proposed by Safari

---

Can't be bothered to check others, but off the top of my head, but most of other standards that you just dumped without understanding fall under the following categories:

- Chrome-only non-standards with multiple issues that have multiple objections from both Safari and Firefox

- Originally proposed by Safari

- Have specific technical objections from Safari, and specific reasons for not implementing

- (very small minority of specs) No idea why they haven't implemented these yet

Re:Apple is not defending browser engine choice by mtomweb on Friday June 24, 2022 @11:07AM (#31863349)
Would you point me to Apple's alternative implementation for access bluetooth / nfc? That's right it doesn't exist. Instead they offer for you to install a native app which once granted bluetooth access can continuously scan and connect to any bluetooth device they want.

- Install Prompts 7 Years behind. Many thousands of requests. - Notifications 7 years behind. - Fullscreen API 11 years behind. - Badging 5 years behind. - Deep Links 7 years behind. - Screen Orientation Lock 10 years behind.

and what's your excuse going to be the myriad of bugs/stability issues?

Re:Apple is not defending browser engine choice by dmitriid on Friday June 24, 2022 @02:06PM (#31866798)
> Would you point me to Apple's alternative implementation for access bluetooth / nfc?

1. This is clearly moving goalposts

2. Why would Apple or Firefox provide you with an "alternative implementation for access bluetooth / nfc"?

> Instead they offer for you to install

No. Instead both they and Mozilla consider these non-standrads harmful and have no intention of implementing them. Or are you going to pretend that Mozilla is in Apple's pocket and does this to enrich Apple?

I'm not going to react to yet another mindless list of things that you have little knowledge of.

Re:Apple is not defending browser engine choice by mtomweb on Friday June 24, 2022 @08:49PM (#31871374)
1. If you're going to say you don't like spec because of issues, you should explicitly describe what those issues are OR offer up an alternative spec. Simply not engaging on the spec doesn't present as engineers trying to solve a problem.

2. Neither Apple or Mozilla have described in detail what they think the harms are and why the specs do not cover those harms. But Mozilla is not a gatekeeper and doesn't ban the competition from 50% of mobile devices, so IMO they should be free to decide to do whatever they want even if I disagree with their decision.

Apple on the other hand not only doesn't describe the security issues in ANY detail, or outline why the specs don't cover them, it bans the competition from bringing any solution to the problem while at the same time providing a significantly insecure solution on native which is widely used to track and surveil users and for 9 years didn't even require a permission prompt.

As for resorting to insults about mindless list of things, have you even attempted to build a web app for iOS?

In every single case of the most ardent Safari defenders the answer is no. Unsurprisingly the people that care about the issues in Safari are the ones with the most knowledge that have to work with it daily.

Re:Apple is not defending browser engine choice by dmitriid on Saturday June 25, 2022 @02:28AM (#31873047)
> If you're going to say you don't like spec because of issues, you should explicitly describe what those issues are

They did

> Neither Apple or Mozilla have described in detail what they think the harms are

They did

> As for resorting to insults about mindless list of things, have you even attempted to build a web app for iOS

Doesn't explain why you keep dumping these lists without thinking and parroting Google's talking points

Re:Apple is not defending browser engine choice by mtomweb on Friday June 24, 2022 @11:13AM (#31863481)
Again. People who ACTUALLY build apps in Safari are the ones that run into these issues. The only people that attempt to defend it are the ones who don't even build apps for it.
Re:Apple is not defending browser engine choice by lelandfe on Friday June 24, 2022 @08:21AM (#31860684)
https://wpt.fyi/

I really like Safari but no, they are definitely not "leading the gang" in adopting features.

Re:Apple is not defending browser engine choice by tonetheman on Friday June 24, 2022 @08:35AM (#31860829)
Look at the front page of https://caniuse.com/

At the bottom right there is a chart and Safari is in 3rd.

I built a company based on browser testing and Safari in general was/is always behind.

They have hired some good people so maybe that situation will change but in general Safari is the currently the boat anchor of browsers. Hopefully the situation will change over time.

Re:Apple is not defending browser engine choice by MCArth on Friday June 24, 2022 @09:32AM (#31861520)
This just isn't true! There are so many features that have not been supported long after other browsers implemented them (webgl 2 comes to mind, though that is finally available - 4% of global web users still don't have support due to this, though!)
Re:Apple is not defending browser engine choice by mtomweb on Friday June 24, 2022 @09:54AM (#31861834)
Exactly: Install Prompts - 7 Years. Fullscreen API - 11 Years. Push API - 7 Years. Badging - 5 years. Screen Orientation Lock - 11 years. Bluetooth - 5 years.
Re:Apple is not defending browser engine choice by frumper on Friday June 24, 2022 @11:19AM (#31863626)
Nope, nope, definitely nope, not critical in the slightest, nope, and sounds like a very niche case that a native app would do just fine with.
Re:Apple is not defending browser engine choice by agust on Friday June 24, 2022 @11:49AM (#31864101)
"A native app would do just fine", why would we want to build a native app using proprietary tech, be forced to go through an app store, risk to be turn down by Apple and be taxed 30% of our revenue otherwise? All this when we can build web apps using open standards, working on all platforms and without being extorted by a giant abusive conglomerate?
Re:Apple is not defending browser engine choice by frumper on Friday June 24, 2022 @12:04PM (#31864444)
You would want to because you want access to Apple's customers. Also, your example doesn't sound like it'd hold up to real world practice. If you're selling someone proprietary tech then your revenue isn't subject to 30% of Apple's fee. Only the software portion done through the app is. You obviously have a motivated buyer at this point if they bought a physical device. You could route them to a website to create an account, sign up for any subscriptions and launch the startup process that eventually has them install your native app. You want what you want, but you describe hyperbole. Plenty of apps have users manage subscriptions on a website, not on native apps.