Counter point: I have 17 inch biceps with a 145 kg bench press. About 16% fat BUT currently not trying to lose weight. Vegan, too. I just want to stress that being carnivore is unnecessary to strength and fitness (let alone just living well.)

Being carnivore is unnecessary to strength and fitness, but many Vegans show important deficiencies on:

- Vitamin B12

- Vitamin D

- Zinc

Most vegan food products available in supermarkets, if you notice the labels, include B12 and Vitamin D supplements at a minimum.

"Top5 Nutrient Deficiencies On A Plant Based Diet": https://www.naturespath.com/en-us/blog/the-top-5-deficiencie...

A majority are deficient in B12 (cobalamin) due to over farming of soil (the main source of B12). The reason meat eaters then to be less deficient is due to livestock being injected with B12.

Zinc is very easy to get outside of meat products, nuts and oats provide plenty of zinc.

His point is one diet is obviously superior to the other if one requires supplementing to meet basic nutritional requirements

There are lots of shitty diets that can work if you supplement

Meat eaters are lacking in nutrients as well. B12 and Omega 3, just like many vegans apparently, as well as fibre. Veganism is a great way of life. I’m currently stronger than 99% of the general public. You guys can only say that it’s a personal choice at this point.

My point, the parent, is that I hope to spare the pain and agony of some hundreds of animals who could needlessly die due to a few dozen otters on HN thinking a carnivore diet is the trick to finally turn them into savages. It won’t. You would all have the same gains as a vegan. Try it out, call it plant-based if you need to.

Many persons are Vegan for several periods of weeks to months at a time, and revert to a carnivore diet by medical necessity. My comment was not against the diet itself, just to point the technical execution behind it.

The problem with some approaches to a Vegan diet, is that they bring with them baggage. An immediate moral and ethical judgement, that some would accuse of being a slippery slope of ambiguity.

Most ambiguity, comes from the way the causing suffering argument is phrased. Declaring it form a high horse of supposedly moral superiority, while for example ignoring the destruction of wild life that intensive farming brings.

Humans with a carnivore diet are not advocating for animal suffering. Vegans advocating a planetary scale plant based diet, if they approach from a moral superiority point, should clarify what level of ALL animal suffering are they willing to tolerate to support their diet.

Some Vegans would argue the suffering to wild life, is an indirect cause of pursuing healthier options, and that not all suffering is the same. The same argument could be used by meat eaters, that none advocates for the abuses of the meat industry.

Unless of course one would use the more radical argument that animals do not exist to feed humans. But the same could be said of plants. They were here before humans.

Not sure if it's a counter point; people do 'stuff' and attribute 'other stuff that happens' from the 'stuff' they do. I am a vegetarian eating a balanced diet and have no issues bulking up. Just do whatever works and don't bother too many other people with it; keto/meatonly/fatonly (yes, I understand these are different things!) people are usually so 'I have discovered god!' and keep telling people about it who are absolutely not going to do it. I just eat what I like and am happy; no need to tell it to everyone, all the time.

I even recognise one of the poster's nicknames here for trying to push some insane (to me; I would say it will be a fluke of nature if this person gets beyond 65 y/o) meat/fat only diets on HN.

For me, the carnivore diet is obnoxious at best. It’s ethically in the red by a lot let alone being unnecessary to be a manly man or whatever the hell it is these guys think they’re achieving on a red meat only diet. WHO advises less meat if anything. You guys should all be in the range between mediterranean lifestyle to vegan. Eating only meat is nasty.

Counter point: For me, vegan diet is not only obnoxious, but also dangerous. Years as a vegan wrecked my health and permanently my teeth. Carnivore was the way out of this downward spiral for me.

Sorry to hear that. I won't try to fault your experience, just state its not a given this is the case for everyone. I have been a vegan for 16 years now. I would say I am in excellent health. Each year I run several 100 mile mountain races along side training all year (running, swimming, hiking and biking), and will be attempting 258 miles non stop race for 5-6 days in the middle of the British winter 2023 (the montane spine race), so I must be doing something right. I very rarely get sick. I also manage a large team of engineers at work and have a young family.

Most likely you have no idea what you’re doing swinging from one fad diet to another.

If it makes you feel better you're welcome to believe that, but I'm sorry to inform you that this is not the case. However, my good health after many years on the carnivore diet is enough for me, I don't have the need to convince anyone.

> I just eat what I like and am happy

An unacceptably selfish attitude in 2022 where industrial-scale mass production of meat foods are literally making our planet unlivable at alarming rates.

As a conscious human being within civilized society you have a responsibility to do the right thing, even if it means taking on a little discomfort in the short term.

Your happiness has less priority than our survival as a species.

Diets are not a "little discomfort in the short term" and treating them in such a way is a slippery slope to things that neither you nor i would be happy to observe. To adopt a particular diet means to be reliant on a specific set of foods, which is not feasable. Diets are also geographical and are shaped by the conditions that those who follow the diet have to live in. It's not as easy as "just don't eat meat".

>Your happiness has less priority than our survival as a species.

Said the next Hitler/Mao/Stalin...

If veganism, ecology, and environmentalism are to be associated with genocidal megalomania, god help us survive ourselves.

Eating a high-protein diet is the easiest way to stay satiated without overeating. Carnivore is actually more difficult than necessary but fits the bill.

However, nature dominates nurture almost every time. So a good hormonal profile is of course more important than diet. I know guys who eat trash but maintain sub-10% bf physique and deadlift 300 kilos. They do it with some genetic luck and steroids.

I’m already on a high protein diet. I just happen to be vegan as well. My breakfast smoothie alone was about 50 grams of protein. I had a generous peanut butter sandwich (about 20 grams protein with my fancy bread) about an hour later.

The thing is, I’m not comparing myself to Brian Shaw or Larry Wheels or anyone else eating 5,000-10,000 calories a day with steroids.

The guys you’re referring to - how much of their “genetic luck” is down to the fact that they’re training constantly, thereby increasing their calorie requirements? You can’t deadlift 300kg without some serious work and dedication, steroids or no steroids, so it makes sense those types of people would be able to scoff down anything for fuel. Being able to deadlift 300kg means they’re also doing some other heavy compounds lifts too which further increases their metabolism and thus, increases the amount of calories they need.

Power lifters don't train constantly. It's nothing like endurance or skill sports where training itself is almost a full-time job. The actual number of hours spent actively lifting is typically pretty low. They spend more time on active recovery and nutrition (and sometimes PEDS).

Interesting thing is that in my case despite doing over 300kg squat and deadlift in competition prep at over 120kg my caloric zero was about 3500kcal, on 4000kcal I would gain fat too fast. This hasnt changes from pre-carnivore times for me. Steroids free.

> Carnivore is actually more difficult than necessary but fits the bill.

Um, define difficult?

Is Tren vegan? ;)

Just eat balanced (omnivore, vegan, vegetarian, all can be balanced and all can be full of junk food) and if you have a smart watch, look at the calories you burnt in the day. Try not to eat more than what you burn.

Be sure to have at least something like 30 minutes 2 days out of 3 where you do sport (workout, whatever you like) and really sweat. Your smart watch can help you doing it with gamification/challenges/you name it.

It is simple, very simple, the hard part is to just do it and keep doing it.

Can confirm that carnivore work wonders. I have been on the diet for 7 years and have never been in better health. But I will say that people should be careful with "extreme" diets as I was vegan for years and this completely wrecked me, including my teeth. I did the radical shift to canivore out of desperation, but that saved my life.

Yes, just tried bulking on a 6 week program and was very impressed with carnivore.

By carnivore do you mean eating only meat? No veggies at all? If so that is an insane diet. Where are you going to get all your micronutrients from?

Only read meat, high fat, mostly only ruminant meat (lamb,goat,beef).

> Where are you going to get all your micronutrients from?

In the meat. You have to look at the bioavailability of stuff from plants and how much they have per-gram and per-calorie.

There are books/people/forums to follow if you want to try. Don't try it blindly/stupidly but go to a forum and ask basic questions.

> In the meat.

facepalm Good luck hitting the RDAs for the following using only the meats you described:

* Vitamin C * Vitamin E * Vitamin K * Calcium * Magnesium

I hope beef liver is in your daily diet, otherwise you're also going to come up short in a bunch of other micros. If you're also strength training you also need to go above the RDA for certain micros (e.g, Vit C, B vitamins, Calcium, ...) making it even harder.

This diet is pure pseudoscience.

> I hope beef liver is in your daily diet, otherwise you're also going to come up short in a bunch of other micros.

I eat full lamb but will consider going mostly muscle meat, will have to find some good deal first.

> This diet is pure pseudoscience.

We've been told that all our lives. It feels that way. I'm sorry. I don't listen to general advice though. Till now it's been going ok.

Join https://old.reddit.com/r/zerocarb/ and give it a try! Who knows, maybe I'm right ;)

RDAs are opinions, not science. They are guesses based on averages, which in many cases do not apply at all to any given individual.

The only way that RDAs are even remotely useful is if one is eating a standard diet where many vitamins and minerals are of lesser bioavailability as they are in the form of meat. In terms of vitamin C, there's a reason why meat eaters don't get scurvy, which is that meat contains other compounds that make the need for exogenous vitamin C much less necessary.

That is precisely why RDAs are mostly nonsense. Absolute values for micronutrients mean very little when you don't account for the food substrate, cofactors, an individual's overall health, what a person weighs, what their body composition is, etc.

Somehow, humans (the Homo genus, to be exact), got away without RDAs for millions of years. And they ate lots of meat.

> I hope beef liver is in your daily diet, otherwise you're also going to come up short in a bunch of other micros.

No, humans do not have to eat organ meat. There is no evidence for this. Skeletal muscle and fatty tissues, particularly that from large ruminant animals, provide everything that a human body needs to function optimally.

> If you're also strength training you also need to go above the RDA for certain micros (e.g, Vit C, B vitamins, Calcium, ...) making it even harder.

The human body does not contain an RDA meter. As I already discussed, RDA is an opinion that only makes sense when a certain set of vitamins and minerals are viewed in isolation. The RDA and RDI hypotheses fall apart when all the other variables of human diet and health come into play.

> This diet is pure pseudoscience.

Yeah... I guess stable isotope data is pseudoscience as well, but RDA is rock solid. Right.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/joim.13011

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S00472...

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-019-41033-3#ref-CR9

Meat very slightly causes cancer. Saturated fats reduce your life expectancy, too.

Not that good advice I guess?

Check the studies you're relying on for this information. Most are confounded by people simply eating fast food.

And fast food is different because… ?

Lots of crappy carbs and added sugar on the side with generally low quality ingredients compared to what anyone caring about their diet would eat.

Most people don't have the dedication of a body builder carefully eating only patties from the burgers. Which would probably work.

Obesity causes cancer as well: https://www.cancerresearchuk.org/about-cancer/causes-of-canc...

Feel free to try it and change your life for the better. You can start with keto diet which is less extreme.

My friend's dad was just diagnosed with stage 3 renal failure and his doctor is emphatic his diet is the culprit. He'd been an advocate of the keto diet for years.

Biology is complicated and different people will have different results. I'm glad it's working for you but please exercise caution before assuming it will help everyone. You also might want to get your kidneys tested.

https://www.renalandurologynews.com/home/news/nephrology/chr...

My grandma lived 95 while smoking a pack a day since her 20s.

N=1 anecdotes are not worth the energy discussing them.

Her son (my father), lived 55 while smoking a pack a day since his 20s.

--

Also, what is keto diet? I've seen keto diets made of mostly meat and organic vegetables, and keto diets made of fat bombs and almond flour pizzas.

Keto and low carb these days have stopped meaning anything, often doesn't even mean "healthier".

If someone suggests something is a cure all for everyone, and a doctor says that cure all is killing someone, and there's medical research backing up the doctor - I'm going to trust the doctor.

My N=1 anecdote is a counterexample that has medical research to back it up. Or are you discrediting the person's anecdote about a carnivorous diet being healthy?

The hydration meme (drinking a gallon+ of fluids a day) is one the few fads that are actually sound.

Anyway, the long term effects are not that worrisome since virtually no one will stick to a diet this strict. I wouldn't also recommend strict keto or carnivore because without carbs most people will lack the oomph for a good workout.

High protein diets can trash a person's kidneys.

I've read that each kidney has a seven fold overcapacity for what people need. So if the kidneys are damaged something majorly bad had to have happened.

Kidneys are also involved in blood production along with bones.

Carnivore or keto is high fat diet. It's not high protein https://www.thecarnivoredietcoach.com/carnivore-foods.html

This always gets flamewar territory. My general answers are:

1. In every health thread we should post a picture of our body

2. Find a doctor that agrees with your opinion. Whatever it is you will find one.

3. I/we usually take harder things than the keto/carnivore thing (trust me)

4. Many things that we've been told our lives has been a lie. Maybe the keto/carnivore is also like that.

5. Please gather all your docs and start a thread on twitter with the "top" keto researchers (@nicknorwitz, @KetoCarnivore, @ChrisPalmerMD, @realDaveFeldman some that I follow)

6. High carb is killing the developed world. Please exercise caution.

I don't want to continue a flame war, but I want to respond to this:

> 2. Find a doctor that agrees with your opinion. Whatever it is you will find one.

I don't want a doctor to confirm my bias. I want a doctor to give me objective data about my health.

> I don't want a doctor to confirm my bias.

You randomly got one that confirmed your bias.

See Virta Health for FDA approved example. It's progressing slowly.

If you are open minded for real check the book "Brain Energy" https://www.amazon.com/Brain-Energy-Revolutionary-Understand...

> You randomly got one that confirmed your bias.

When I listen to someone tell me objective data I'm confirming a bias I never had to begin with? The amount of projecting you're doing is extraordinary. If a doctor told you your kidneys were failing after getting them tested (I already linked the research for you to read, but clearly you're afraid of information that doesn't confirm your bias), would you then go find a doctor that tells you your kidneys are fine? Your fear of information is literally going to kill you. This is the mentality that leads to anti-vaxxing.

> If you are open minded for real check

This is ironic since you're not even open-minded to listening to a doctor, or medical research, or anything that disagrees with what you already think you know.

You are a perfect example of the Dunning Kruger effect.

I wish I was as innocent as you but not everyone is so lucky.

In my case, I've improved my health care issues given to me by my parents with keto/carnivore.

Hope you do the same.

Note: you never mentioned anything about yourself, not what you eat or train or anything. Just the cancer and the paper.

The paper you linked had nearly everything wrong starting from the high protein, the acidosis thing, the meat/eggs being associated with diabetes, the doctor recommending vegan.

> I never even said the word cancer

You forgot your friend's dad.

The ONLY way to know something is to become an expert yourself. If you do keto for several years, you will see that I'm correct.

But you can't compare several years of experience with just reading a paper.

I'm talking what I do for several years and progress while you link to a paper that is clearly wrong to anyone knowing keto basics.

You are a midwit! Also see the "Ackchyually meme". It happens often with people with no real world/life experience beside reading title of papers thinking they're smart.

My friend's dad has stage 3 renal failure, not cancer. I genuinely have no idea what you're talking about and you're just rambling now. Enjoy your self-contained bubble of delusion where nobody can harm you (except yourself, but you'd need to be self-aware to realize that).

Cheers.

Who cares about your friend's dead dad, I was at the gym and misread/misremembered.

The paper is still wrong.

Even keto/carnivore can help with delusions/schizophrenia/bipolar: Dr. Chris Palmer - 'The Ketogenic Diet in Neurology and Psychiatry' https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUtwr_6sFw4. He is a doctor, try watching the video.

But, being a midwit is genetic. No cure for that. I'm sorry.

> Who cares about your friend's dead dad, I was at the gym and misread/misremembered.

Your ability to incorrectly read what I wrote so many times is impressive. My friend's dad isn't dead.

You have demonstrated more than once a complete inability to fact check the most basic things, and yet you pontificate as if you are an expert. Have you ever considered you may have accidentally gotten many of your other assumptions wrong? If your worldview is anything like this conversation, it's built on incorrect assumptions and you being confident about something objectively false. You are demonstrating that you have the reading comprehension of a 3rd grader and expect me to take you seriously.

You've already discredited yourself multiple times. I don't respect you enough to read your sources, the same way you can't even correctly read the sentences I write. If you are so sure you are right, why do you care what I think? I never claimed to be struggling with my health, and yet you keep offering advice on how to improve it. You are having an argument with yourself and you don't even recognize it. It's obvious you don't listen, but you need therapy.

I hope you get the help that you need, but something tells me you'd refuse it even if it were available.

Doing a low carb (not sure if I am in keto as I am not measuring) to see if it reduces CFS symptoms. So far it seems to be helping.

Not sure why: if it is the low carb aspect or just eating less.

Also check out this book Brain Energy: A Revolutionary Breakthrough in Understanding Mental Health https://www.amazon.com/Brain-Energy-Revolutionary-Understand...

Thanks for the recommendation. Does the book also recommended low carb/keto?

I think CFS is also connected to the mind (don't remember correctly). You can see a presentation by the same guy: Dr. Chris Palmer - 'The Ketogenic Diet in Neurology and Psychiatry' https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUtwr_6sFw4

It might be, I have read a dozen CFS theories from adrenal fatigue to lime disease to mitochondrial function to microbiome. I might just have too much candida?

I am basically a N=1 experiment to see what works for me in terms of management. I see a psychologist and have started meditation too to have another iron in the fire.

Yeah I’ve done lots of blood tests. Those make me look like a 20yo athlete :-). I am not.

I love it when someone say you should see a doctor! If only … I could see just one. I probably have seen 10. I love it when one doctor shakes their head about what the other one said.

But r/cfs is actually more useful for knowledge (doctors are good for getting tests done, I had blood tests, brain scan, sleep study, lime tests) and I guess as a sanity check.

Good luck! Don't forget to eat fat! Make sure to join a forum and ask questions so you're not doing things wrong.