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Re:Where are all the crypto use cases? by tptacek on Tuesday June 21, 2022 @12:12AM (#31819776)
If these are powerful use cases, you probably won't need to inform us about them; we'll all be using Filecoin instead of S3, or Radicle instead of Gitlab. Instead of "here are some popular use cases", you'll say "you rely on crypto every day, in order to access this structured knowledge graph thing everyone uses". If replacing S3 and Github are the strongest cases you can make, I'm dubious: I don't doubt there are people who really want to replace S3, but I very much do doubt that there's a critical mass of them.

The question being put to crypto isn't "can you come up with something that it can do"; it's "can you come up with something that will see mainstream use that eclipses the toxic speculation that's perceived to characterize every crypto application".

I don't claim to have a dispositive argument here, but I also don't think crypto advocates do either.

Re:Where are all the crypto use cases? by flaque on Tuesday June 21, 2022 @12:48AM (#31819995)
> “can you come up with something that will see mainstream use that eclipses the toxic speculation that's perceived to characterize every crypto application“

This is a far better question to put to crypto.

The article isn’t attempting to address that question though.

My bet is “yes”, at maybe 80% confidence. I would say it’s fairly difficult to see though, because speculative projects grow very quickly and dwarf “normal” projects, setting unrealistic comparisons.

Both crypto skeptics and crypto promoters tend to be blinded by candlestick graphs.

The total number of active wallets is still fairly small (a few million), and so a “non-speculative” project doesn’t “seem” like a major project when folks attempt to compare its market cap against speculative projects.

For example, Dark Forest is fairly popular, but isn’t explicitly a speculative project. And so few folks outside of crypto have heard of it.

Crypto suffers from the problem that the speculative parts are mainstream (or at least, are very well known about), but non-speculative use cases are not.

I think this problem is mostly solved by the bubble popping. Crypto-skeptics can pat themselves on the back for predicting the obvious, but may end up being wrong long term because they missed the relatively “small” non-speculative projects.

Re:Where are all the crypto use cases? by syntheweave on Tuesday June 21, 2022 @01:06AM (#31820096)
Another way to put it is that crypto, being specified as a protocol, is likely not to be the product(which is how it's promoted speculatively) but a feature of a product.

Like, HTTP isn't a product; but a web browser uses HTTP as a feature, and so do web servers. But they aren't the whole product either.

And the categorical error is that traditional finance sees its protocols as products, but they're actually on the road to commodified features. It's easy to "print new money" now, so that's not the part of the value chain that matters.

Re:Where are all the crypto use cases? by Nursie on Tuesday June 21, 2022 @01:29AM (#31820231)
> Another way to put it is that crypto, being specified as a protocol, is likely not to be the product

I used to say to proponents of blockchain as an enabling tech, "show me a product that relies on blockchain tech but sells itself on its amazing problem-solving features, not on the word blockchain and not on the alleged value of its attached tokens"

I don't know that I've really seen such a thing yet. I stopped asking a couple of years ago I think. The few times I got a response I'd follow a link and go to a page singing the praises of a token and using the word blockchain liberally.

Re:Where are all the crypto use cases? by tornato7 on Tuesday June 21, 2022 @01:11PM (#31826467)
Here's a couple: Figure[0] provides financial services by abstracting blockchain in the backend. Koala[1] provides travel reinsurance products funded by crypto loans in the backend.

0. https://www.figure.com/ 1. https://hikoala.co/

Re:Where are all the crypto use cases? by Nursie on Tuesday June 21, 2022 @11:19PM (#31831655)
That is interesting.

But neither is anything particularly new at the consumer end, the only difference between Koala and any other company is that they're reliant on defi lending for their funding.

And the only thing blockchainy I can find about Figure is their crypto mortgage, which is an(other) collateralised loan scheme, and it's not in action yet. I notice it was supposed to launch in April with a 100% crypto-to-loan amount. I wonder if they've had to rethink it in light of the recent crash?

If their other products are somehow blockchain (and they might be, I can see they have some sort of proprietary blockchain going on) then firstly, yes, we’ll done to them for not crowing about it and putting the product first! But secondly, again I’m not really seeing a novelty here.

And I wonder what happens to companies like Koala in the current situation, a lot of DeFi lending platforms seem to have either collapsed or be on the brink.

But I guess “crowd-funded finance”

Re:Where are all the crypto use cases? by jrumbut on Tuesday June 21, 2022 @01:40AM (#31820293)
But if the speculative use cases dwarf the normal ones, won't their interests come first?

Why would I want to hitch my wagon to that star? What will happen if the speculation dies down and the ledger isn't so widely distributed anymore?

Re:Where are all the crypto use cases? by aeternum on Tuesday June 21, 2022 @01:44AM (#31820317)
>But if the speculative use cases dwarf the normal ones, won't their interests come first?

They will initially but just as we saw the the early internet, a crash can wipe out the speculation pretty efficiently and what remains might actually be useful.

Re:Where are all the crypto use cases? by danaris on Tuesday June 21, 2022 @09:11AM (#31823502)
By the dot-com crash in 2000, there were a myriad of clear use cases for the Internet that normal people—those not particularly tech-savvy, and especially not those directly financially invested in Internet companies—used and recognized as very helpful.

Bitcoin has now been around for, what, 13 years? And aside from a very brief explosion of hype around NFTs that most people were fairly quickly able to recognize as nothing but more "greater fool" scams, most people not directly financially invested in blockchain projects either don't know or care blockchain exists, or see it as a bad thing.

Re:Where are all the crypto use cases? by mirntyfirty on Tuesday June 21, 2022 @11:10AM (#31824834)
It was interesting how quickly the cloud providers got rid of their block chain offerings.
Re:Where are all the crypto use cases? by tornato7 on Tuesday June 21, 2022 @11:47AM (#31825291)
Have they? It looks like Azure, AWS, and CloudFlare still have their blockchain services, and Google still maintains Ethereum-ETL. GCP made a big push into the space earlier this year with a dedicated team (but not much has come of that yet).
Re:Where are all the crypto use cases? by mirntyfirty on Tuesday June 21, 2022 @01:08PM (#31826432)
That’s what I get for not verifying headlines.
Re:Where are all the crypto use cases? by jrumbut on Tuesday June 21, 2022 @01:57AM (#31820413)
I don't know about the very early days, but since 1990 Internet adoption (globally) has only gone up.

Some stocks crashed, some specific sites went away, but the people involved just reorganized and made even more successful businesses.

If 50%+ of Internet users decided to disconnect that could cause some real problems.

Re:Where are all the crypto use cases? by aeternum on Tuesday June 21, 2022 @10:39AM (#31824457)
Hasn't crypto adoption also generally only gone up? https://financesonline.com/number-of-blockchain-wallet-users...
Re:Where are all the crypto use cases? by jrumbut on Tuesday June 21, 2022 @03:46PM (#31828277)
We are talking about a hypothetical future where the speculation interest goes away.

The poster I was responding to thought that would make room for more pragmatic applications but I'm not so sure.

Re:Where are all the crypto use cases? by soco on Tuesday June 21, 2022 @04:08AM (#31821502)
Which early internet crash event are you referring to?
Re:Where are all the crypto use cases? by ogogmad on Tuesday June 21, 2022 @04:52AM (#31821798)
The dot-com bubble that crashed circa 2000: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dot-com_bubble

I'm not convinced that crypto is like the dot-com bubble. With the early web, its use cases were fairly clear and immediate. With crypto, the use cases remain unclear and speculative even after 13 years of hype and fanfare.

Re:Where are all the crypto use cases? by soco on Tuesday June 21, 2022 @05:14AM (#31821922)
I definitely wouldn't have thought to call the 00's "early internet" but that's maybe just me :)
Re:Where are all the crypto use cases? by leereeves on Tuesday June 21, 2022 @04:21PM (#31828665)
It was early web anyway. The first web browser was released in 1993, and the first version of Netscape was released in 1994.
Re:Where are all the crypto use cases? by tromp on Tuesday June 21, 2022 @03:22AM (#31821181)
> a “non-speculative” project doesn’t “seem” like a major project when folks attempt to compare its market cap against speculative projects.

What is a non-speculative project? How can you deter speculation? By maintaining a high supply inflation for a long time?

Re:Where are all the crypto use cases? by shp0ngle on Tuesday June 21, 2022 @03:39AM (#31821301)
Crypto has exactly one such usecase.

Darknet markets. Lots of drugs and lots of illegal materials are bought and sold using crypto, like stolen cards and child porn.

So, “if you are child porn enthusiast, you are maybe using cryptocurrency” might be a valid usecase.

However I don’t know how prevalent crypto is in any of these. I haven’t read any studies on it, and they might be hard to do.

I don’t think any of the big drug cartels actually use cryptocurrency, for example, but I might be wrong.

Re:Where are all the crypto use cases? by bsaul on Tuesday June 21, 2022 @04:01AM (#31821456)
i believe it's true, however i distinctly remember that france's ancestor to internet ( called "minitel") first use was prostitution related, yet it also spawned other usages like yellow pages and train reservations.

What's surprising about crypto however, is that this "second wave" of usages should already start to appear by now, and yet we don't see any sign of them.

Re:Where are all the crypto use cases? by reacweb on Tuesday June 21, 2022 @04:11AM (#31821526)
I do not think people should confuse minitel rose (https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minitel_rose) with prostitution. In one case, the victim is the prostitute, in the other case, it is the client.
Re:Where are all the crypto use cases? by bsaul on Tuesday June 21, 2022 @04:21PM (#31828666)
Sure, i couldn't find a way to describe minitel rose in english so i went for prostitution. But it's clearly not, you're right.
Re:Where are all the crypto use cases? by whatisweb3 on Tuesday June 21, 2022 @04:23AM (#31821604)
The “second wave” of crypto uses are already present for those using these networks. For average mass market appeal, we will not see it until PoS and privacy enabled scalable L2s reach maturity.
Re:Where are all the crypto use cases? by pontus on Tuesday June 21, 2022 @03:48AM (#31821372)
Each product's value can be judged along many different dimensions. The fact that a product is not the top most used in a category does not mean that it is inferior along all dimensions. For example, many people here on HN would say that they prefer DuckDuckGo over Google because it doesn't track you in the same way. However it's not the number one product in the search engine category. It does, however, win along at least one dimension: privacy. So, if you value that then maybe DDG is for you. The same privacy argument could be made for protonmail, Tor, and Signal.

Just because something isn't AWS doesn't mean that it's useless. I think that's part of the point the OP was making: people keep moving the goal post and because of that, their argument is not falsifiable.

Re:Where are all the crypto use cases? by danenania on Tuesday June 21, 2022 @12:20PM (#31825712)
The ultimate test for a new crypto application would be to not mention anywhere that it uses crypto and completely abstract anything crypto-related away from users, then get millions of users because it does something truly useful.
Re:Where are all the crypto use cases? by whatisweb3 on Tuesday June 21, 2022 @03:25AM (#31821202)
Why does Uniswap need to replace all of our exchanges within a two year timespan in order to be seen as useful, novel, and interesting tech? When was the last time you applied this standard to the rest of our technology? HN can admit that Tor, Scuttlebutt, 3D printing, text-to-image GANs is interesting and useful tech, despite it not taking over average users daily lives.

The basic premises of crypto are to be decentralized and permissionless systems that support peer-to-peer forms of exchange and ownership, and they largely succeed in their defined goals. The goal of these protocols is to provide new tools, not to replace every corner of fiat and financial systems.

Re:Where are all the crypto use cases? by theamk on Tuesday June 21, 2022 @09:22AM (#31823624)
The key difference is negative externalities. If 3D printing and Scuttlebutt were associated with scams and crime, people in HN would Cann it useless too.
Re:Where are all the crypto use cases? by whatisweb3 on Tuesday June 21, 2022 @10:04AM (#31824080)
Notice that Tor was also in my list, and it powers the criminal dark web - driving a lot of negative externalities - but it is rarely called useless. HN crowd generally appreciates privacy, peer-to-peer systems, and end-to-end encryption, but does not apply the same standards when it comes to digital ownership and value exchange.
Re:Where are all the crypto use cases? by dmitriid on Tuesday June 21, 2022 @03:00PM (#31827730)
> to be decentralized and permissionless systems that support peer-to-peer forms of exchange and ownership, and they largely succeed in their defined goals.

They... they don't succeed. Like, at all. Except for a tiny bit in their own digital bubbles where everything is defined in crypto. And even there it's highly questionable.

Re:Where are all the crypto use cases? by whatisweb3 on Wednesday June 22, 2022 @06:30AM (#31834138)
Sure they do - these protocols define digital assets that can be owned in a non-custodial manner, and exchanged and escrowed via peer-to-peer mechanisms without fear of double-spend. These are the goals of the protocols, and both BTC and ETH have succeeded wildly at doing this specific task, facilitating billions of dollars worth of transfers for several years without any notable record of a double-spend or network downtime.

This says nothing about their USD spot trading price, or the practicality of securing large amounts of wealth with a 24-word private key, or the expectation that these technologies should somehow replace all corners of the world's financial transactions.

Re:Where are all the crypto use cases? by vidanay on Tuesday June 21, 2022 @12:28PM (#31825818)
The number of people who want to replace S3 is far larger than the number of people who want to replace S3 with a crypto based solution.

Both are probably pretty small numbers.

Re:Where are all the crypto use cases? by nl on Tuesday June 21, 2022 @01:08AM (#31820120)
I think self sovereign identity (ie, what Keybase did but standardized and anchored on a public blockchain rather than a private database) is an interesting consumer-facing technology that is crypto based and isn't a scam.

Identity plays are tricky commercially but there do seem to be some interesting shoots of growth around it.

Re:Where are all the crypto use cases? by tptacek on Tuesday June 21, 2022 @01:13AM (#31820154)
I'm a broken record on why I believe this is a distinctively bad use case for public blockchains, for whatever it's worth. But it doesn't matter that I think this use case is doomed; what matters is: it's not a serious mainstream thing right now. If it becomes one, you won't have to argue; it'll be self-evidently an important use case.
Re:Where are all the crypto use cases? by pfraze on Tuesday June 21, 2022 @01:21AM (#31820193)
Sorry to make you repeat yourself, but we’re looking at DIDs and I’d like to know your arguments against them. Do you mind linking to a comment or summarizing?
Re:Where are all the crypto use cases? by brabel on Tuesday June 21, 2022 @02:33AM (#31820609)
DIDs have nothing to do with blockchains, it's just that some people are trying to hype DIDs by artificially linking them with blockchains. They use "crypto" but the "old kind", the good one: cryptography.
Re:Where are all the crypto use cases? by nl on Tuesday June 21, 2022 @11:11PM (#31831612)
While DIDs do not have to link to blockchains the standard itself notes:

Many—but not all—DID methods make use of distributed ledger technology (DLT) or some other form of decentralized network.[1]

[1] https://www.w3.org/TR/did-core/

Re:Where are all the crypto use cases? by nl on Tuesday June 21, 2022 @11:30PM (#31831729)
Re:Where are all the crypto use cases? by wickoff on Tuesday June 21, 2022 @02:23AM (#31820569)
Two words. Identity theft.
Re:Where are all the crypto use cases? by gnarula on Tuesday June 21, 2022 @02:33AM (#31820611)
Could you elaborate a bit on that please? How would that pan out?
Re:Where are all the crypto use cases? by nl on Tuesday June 21, 2022 @11:30PM (#31831726)
I went looking (!) and I found this comment[1] from you. To summarize:

> SSI has no human mediated account recovery and so is a toy.

I don't completely disagree, but it's not the take I was expecting.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29750165

Re:Where are all the crypto use cases? by rnk on Tuesday June 21, 2022 @02:48AM (#31820770)
Please explain what this is a bad use case. I'd love to learn why that is.
Re:Where are all the crypto use cases? by theshrike79 on Tuesday June 21, 2022 @03:07AM (#31821028)
Because you can't remove stuff from a blockchain.

Change your name? Old name still there. Change your phone number? Still there. All old email addresses? Still there.

Re:Where are all the crypto use cases? by gnarula on Tuesday June 21, 2022 @03:33AM (#31821254)
I reckon that's now how SSI solutions use a blockchain (or at least the ones I know of). AFAIK, a blockchain is only used to resolve a DID (an identifier mapping a random ID to a bunch of public keys you control, along with a URL to communicate with your device). Your personal information, as in your name, phone number, email stay in your device and are only exchanged with the party you want to authenticate against.

I'm curious to know if there's something I misunderstood in this space

Re:Where are all the crypto use cases? by shafyy on Tuesday June 21, 2022 @03:06AM (#31821014)
Not the person you're responding to, but my view on this is: Having one online identity that is publicly viewable by everbody is a privacy nightmare. Yes, I know that it's pseudonymous, but it's possible for a sufficiently motivated entity to find out who is behind a pseudonym.
Re:Where are all the crypto use cases? by somebodythere on Tuesday June 21, 2022 @04:00AM (#31821450)
Zero-knowledge cryptography allows you to post opaque data to the blockchain and selectively reveal properties of it to chosen people and applications.

For example, a zero-knowledge DID can generate a proof to an age-restricted application that you are over 18, without necessarily revealing your birthdate or any other information about yourself.

Re:Where are all the crypto use cases? by captn3m0 on Tuesday June 21, 2022 @04:21AM (#31821584)
And this is already covered by the DID/VC W3C specs that don’t need a blockchain. An age restriction in particular will _always require the blessing of a central party_.
Re:Where are all the crypto use cases? by radicalbyte on Tuesday June 21, 2022 @02:24AM (#31820575)
Nah, SSI is interesting but it has absolutely 0 need for a blockchain. It's just another case of a solution looking for a problem.

The only reason anyone cares about blockchain is because of the ability to speculate. Remove that and it's a tiny niche tech - which certainly has use cases but nothing you can build a Facebook or Google around.

Re:Where are all the crypto use cases? by somebodythere on Tuesday June 21, 2022 @04:11AM (#31821528)
A blockchain also allows software programs to interact with each other in an uncensorable way, and ensures that those programs operate the way their source code says it does. It may be a niche technology, but I think these properties are useful for a bunch of types of apps.
Re:Where are all the crypto use cases? by latchkey on Tuesday June 21, 2022 @01:46AM (#31820331)
It is kind of entertaining to see how many profiles on HN still have their keybase identity in them.
Re:Where are all the crypto use cases? by 8note on Tuesday June 21, 2022 @01:57AM (#31820410)
isnt that blockchain sovereign identity? its not you that owns your identity, its the blockchain and a private key.

it be nice to prove identity via a public key, but the private key can't be trusted as the authority. They get compromised too often

Re:Where are all the crypto use cases? by fossuser on Tuesday June 21, 2022 @01:27AM (#31820215)
This is how urbit ids work for what it’s worth, I think it’s a good model.
Re:Where are all the crypto use cases? by dubswithus on Tuesday June 21, 2022 @12:21PM (#31825723)
Do you have a centralized solution for the Brave/BAT ecosystem? Not even Google checks the boxes. They won't pay you for viewing ads or protect your privacy.
Re:Where are all the crypto use cases? by bluefone on Tuesday June 21, 2022 @12:24PM (#31825760)
What is even Brave/BAT ecosystem? The ask was for mainstream usecases, not some unknown acronyms.
Re:Where are all the crypto use cases? by dubswithus on Tuesday June 21, 2022 @12:30PM (#31825847)
https://brave.com/transparency/

* 60 million monthly active users

https://basicattentiontoken.org/growth/

* 10 million users opted into rewards

Brave pays users for their attention while blocking ads and tracking. Brave is not unknown on HN. There are a lot of posts about it that make the front page.

Re:Where are all the crypto use cases? by bluefone on Tuesday June 21, 2022 @03:10PM (#31827859)
You need to remember that the entire crypto crowd (dev, preachers, fans, intellectuals, philosophers, gamblers, ...) are all a tiny, tiny minority on this planet. Tokens?? Are they some round plastic pieces given at fun rides? If they are so damn well-known, why is not a house-hold name such as amazon, netflix, facebook etc? Come out of your silly crypto rabbit hole and experience the real world.