If you have to start with "if people would just choose" then it's not viable.
That way they'll have vastly less money for advertising and lobbying.
Then you take the trillions you've saved and use it to bring healthy, convenient, tasty options to put in front of them.
It's actually pretty easy to get people to make different choices, you just make the good choice slightly more convenient and stop subjecting them to 24/7 manipulation to make the terrible choice.
It seems like this would be enough and that you don’t have to take all the steps laid out as preliminary. (You could still do them in parallel if you like.)
You think that people eat meat because of lobbying and advertisting from the meat industry? Like tobacco, or alcohol? Or gambling? Is that the idea?
In the end people can just choose. If someone reading this right now eats meat, then you can make the choice to eat more plants. Please do so as much as you can, that will make a difference in saving the planet!
There is something called bio-availability and there are nutrients in meat that you don't ever get from plants.
But it would be nice if there were public pig pens where you could recycle food waste into bacon.
Transportation is the biggest co2 producer...
Or you only eat meat and tried eating fruit and veg with it?
If it’s the latter, I don’t think it’s the plants causing the problem!
Background: I've seen a lot of violence in my childhood, lost my friends more than once through moving or switching schools, have been abused in school by a teacher and felt unwanted in general. Although I'm smart, I always was forgetful and felt stupid, took longer to understand things than others, one of these would be enough to give depression.
for about 30 years I suffered depression, started when I was about seven up until roundabout 35 years old.
I was only diagnosed with serious depression(suicidal ideation, woke up at night, thought someone evil is in my room, crying a lot, hopelessness, low energy, panic attacks, unable to hold down a job), adhd and some borderline schizoid spectrum in 2012, went to therapy, rehab, and emotion control training.
In 2017 I left the latest rehab with doctors telling me there was no hope. Up until that point I was the person who would eat anything, didn't care, meat, fruit, carbs, sugary stuff. I love food!
Sept 2017: In the forums Keto would pop up now and then, that was the last thing I hadn't tried the last 4 years so I thought I'd give it a shot. And within a week the depression cleared. And every time I told someone they told me, that it's not okay to eat that much meat, and food can't cause depression, and I should go back to eating "normal". Energy levels where higher than I'd ever known, my mood stabilized.
My finances were down to the last penny, so I had to prioritize meat over everything else, someone mentioned zero carb. At that point I still ate dandelion (picked them in the streets, on lawns, in the surrounding fields) with lemmon juice, just to get in enough fat for the ketogenic diet. I decided to give it a shot. To my surprise, the panic attacks went down within a week, I stopped waking up at night and seeing things that weren't there.
If this experience is placebo, I'm okay with it. No doctor has been able to explain it to me, I don't have any allergies to food, so it has to be something in the gut. I have a sibo-test sitting, but haven't done it yet.
So now, roundabout 5 years later, I've been working since 2019, high performing in what I do, no needless crying, no energy crash, no suicidal ideation. I'm still forgetful, but that's okay.
Baseline eating is 170 grams of fat/70 grams of protein, preferably organic, locally sourced beef, but I'll eat anything meat that comes my way.
Over the years I've tested all kinds of greens and carbs. All kinds of seeds seem to give me hopelessness, while sugary fruit, tubers and processed carbs sap my energy and green veggies seem to give me the idea that someone is watching me. When I don't test for a few weeks, I'm stable and don't get any of these effects.
There are some things I can eat, but even they seem to have a threshold. Currants, glazed onions, Coconut milk raspberries (A handful a week seems okay, more will trigger symptoms) artificial sweeteners - curious with these, they make me angry (again 4 days until it sets in)
I'm curious, what are some of those nutrients?
I think you can live OK without those (I'm vegan), but supplementing the above from non-animal sources is probably a good idea, or at least not a bad one.
IMHO vegans need to supplement only B12, as we live in too sterile environments to get enought of it naturally, for other things sufficiently diverse diet should suffice.
DHA/EPA Omega 3s - algae, seaweed, spirulina, flaxseed, chiaseeds, hempseeds, wallnuts, cruciferous vegetables (brussel sprouts)
Creatine - spirulina, chives, edamame, ... (https://thedietauthority.com/best-sources-of-creatine-for-ve...)
Glucosamine - corn, wheat
Choline - legumes
B12 - bacteria, nutritional yeast, seaweed, mushrooms
Rather than saying "vegan", why not be honest and just say "Silicon Valley diet"?
"Spirulina", "seaweed", "edamame"... I guess I can enjoy my nutritional definiciencies then, eh? Because there's no spirulina, or edible seaweeds, or edamame within a boat trip of where I live.
Btw: you can't get enough B12 from any of the sources you list. But who's afraid of B12 deficiency, when it's for a good cause, amirite?
You can get your vegan B12 pills from your local eshop, no need to dive for seaweed (https://www.amazon.com/s?k=vegan+b12 - dozens, maybe hundreds of different vegan b12 supplements).
> Btw: you can't get enough B12 from any of the sources you list
See https://www.freshnlean.com/blog/vegan-b12-sources/
1. Tempeh - Up to 14.8mcg / 370% DV per 100g 2. Chlorella - 80-100mcg / 2000-2500% per 100g 3. Nori Seaweed - 11-42mcg / 275-1050% DV per 100g
> Claimed sources of B12 that have been shown through direct studies of vegans to be inadequate include human gut bacteria, spirulina, dried nori, barley grass and most other seaweeds. Several studies of raw food vegans have shown that raw food offers no special protection.
> Reports that B12 has been measured in a food are not enough to qualify that food as a reliable B12 source. It is difficult to distinguish true B12 from analogues that can disrupt B12 metabolism. Even if true B12 is present in a food, it may be rendered ineffective if analogues are present in comparable amounts to the true B12. There is only one reliable test for a B12 source - does it consistently prevent and correct deficiency? Anyone proposing a particular food as a B12 source should be challenged to present such evidence.
https://www.vegansociety.com/resources/nutrition-and-health/...
And also wikipedia which is more reliable and is not trying to sell you anything:
The Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics considers plant and algae sources "unreliable", stating that vegans should turn to fortified foods and supplements instead.[32]
I mean no offense, and I'm no vegan (ha ha no), but it sounds like you need a therapist more than you need a butcher. There is no way that eating plants gives you depression. It's even less likely that "it takes 4 days" for it to go off.
Eat a diverse low-fat, whole plant-based diet - if you don't how or what, find yourself a weekly vegan meal plan. Supplement with B12 and you'll be fine. Learn to cook, explore vegan meals/recipes from around the world, stay away from processed food.
> There is something called bio-availability and there are nutrients in meat that you don't ever get from plants.
That's a lie you've been told. Plants are enough (again, don't forget your B12 vegan supplements).
> Transportation is the biggest co2 producer...
Transport, processing, retail & packaging is a miniscule part in CO2 production compared to land use change & farming.
[https://ychef.files.bbci.co.uk/1600x900/p0c41fcj.webp - Emissions (in kg CO2e) from the food supply chain – the climate impact of food miles is often a small proportion (Source: Our World in Data/Poore and Nemecek, Science, 2018), linked from ] [https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20220429-the-climate-bene...]
But it will be IMHO a miniscule percent/promile, not a majority.
> there are nutrients in meat that you don't ever get from plants
Plant-Based Diets Are Not Nutritionally Deficient https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3854817/
"More than a half-century of creative marketing by the meat, dairy, egg, and fish industries has produced fears surrounding nonexistent deficiencies, which in clinical practice need no patient monitoring by physicians and dietitians"
Btw, while I didn't say the line you're quoting about nutrients missing from plants, the article you're quoting is not very serious looking, with references that 404 and no way to find the actual data that I could find.
https://ourworldindata.org/food-choice-vs-eating-local
And it doesn't say that transport etc is a miniscule part in CO2 production. It says that of all emissions from farming, transport is a small part compared to land use change. But you present it like it's emissions from farming compared to all other emissions. Way to go!
> That's a lie you've been told. Plants are enough (again, don't forget your B12 vegan supplements).
Plants are enough but you need B12 supplements? What for?
> transport is a small part compared to land use change
Transport is a small part not only to land use change, but also to farming, animal feed and processing. See the graph.
> Plants are enough but you need B12 supplements? What for?
B12 is necessary vitamin. Most people get their B12 from animal-based foods. But animals do not produce B12, it just bioaccumulates in them. My argument is, that we can go directly to the source (e.g. bacteria) and make supplements instead from vegan sources, free of harm & suffering.
I saw the graph. You're using it wrong.
> B12 is necessary vitamin. Most people get their B12 from animal-based foods. But animals do not produce B12, it just bioaccumulates in them. My argument is, that we can go directly to the source (e.g. bacteria) and make supplements instead from vegan sources, free of harm & suffering.
So plants are not enough?
You like cheese, I get it. Care to elaborate?
> So plants are not enough?
Yes, they are. See my other comment to you in this discussion (I've even listed some numbers for you). But I've got a hunch not even that will be enough for you.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UcN7SGGoCNI - Dairy is scary !
Serum concentrations of vitamin B12 and folate in British male omnivores, vegetarians and vegans: results from a cross-sectional analysis of the EPIC-Oxford cohort study
> Vegans have lower vitamin B12 concentrations, but higher folate concentrations, than vegetarians and omnivores. Half of the vegans were categorized as vitamin B12 deficient and would be expected to have a higher risk of developing clinical symptoms related to vitamin B12 deficiency.
https://www.nature.com/articles/ejcn2010142.?mod=article_inl...
The prevalence of cobalamin deficiency among vegetarians assessed by serum vitamin B12: a review of literature
> Higher deficiency prevalence was reported in vegans than in other vegetarians. Thus, with few exceptions, the reviewed studies documented relatively high deficiency prevalence among vegetarians. Vegans who do not ingest vitamin B12 supplements were found to be at especially high risk. Vegetarians, especially vegans, should give strong consideration to the use of vitamin B12 supplements to ensure adequate vitamin B12 intake.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24667752/
Vitamin B12 Sources and Bioavailability
> Most of the edible blue-green algae (cyanobacteria) used for human supplements predominately contain pseudovitamin B12, which is inactive in humans. The edible cyanobacteria are not suitable for use as vitamin B12 sources, especially in vegans.
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.3181/0703-MR-67
Bonus study:
Subacute Combined Degeneration of the Spinal Cord in Vegetarians: Vegetarian's Myelopathy
https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/internalmedicine/45/10/...
Nice, huh?
> Dairy is scary
But malnutrition is scarier.
> Yes, they are.
So why do you need supplements?
Better read that Cognitive Dissonance link carefully.
Or this one:
> (you) But malnutrition is scarier.
I said that plants & B12 vegan supplements are enough. What I meant is (and was not maybe clear enough), that we as humans do not need to rely on animals, even if we'd be supplementing our diet with some pills (IMHO B12 supplement from vegan sources is enough). You seem to be equating veganism with malnutrition.
American Dietetic Association: "It is the position of the American Dietetic Association that appropriately planned vegetarian diets, including total vegetarian or vegan diets, are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. Well-planned vegetarian diets are appropriate for individuals during all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, and adolescence, and for athletes." https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19562864
NHS: "A vegetarian or vegan diet can be suitable for everyone, regardless of their age." https://www.nhs.uk/live-well/eat-well/healthy-eating-vegetar...
British Dietetic Association: "As a result of the memorandum the BDA and The Vegan Society will: - Work together to show that it is possible to follow a well-planned, plant-based, vegan friendly diet that supports healthy living in people of all ages, and during pregnancy and breastfeeding." https://www.bda.uk.com/about/workwithus/bda_and_vegan_societ...
I didn't reply to this:
> Plants are enough (again, don't forget your B12 vegan supplements).
With this:
> But malnutrition is scarier.
I replied to this:
> Plants are enough (again, don't forget your B12 vegan supplements).
With this:
> Plants are enough but you need B12 supplements? What for?
You have no interest in a curious and intelligent conversation. All you want is to propagandise your vegan ideology. You will lie, and lie, and ignore everything everyone says, unless they say something that suits you.
And even that, you will try to twist to your own purpose. Everything you quote from the American Dietetic Association and the NHS and so on, all that hinges on a vegan diet that is "well planned". Which is very hard to do and most vegans don't manage it. Here's the Vegan society again:
> Most vegans show adequate B12 levels to make clinical deficiency unlikely but nonetheless show restricted activity of B12 related enzymes, leading to elevated homocysteine levels. Strong evidence has been gathered over the past decade that even slightly elevated homocysteine levels increase risk of heart disease and stroke and pregnancy complications.
https://www.vegansociety.com/resources/nutrition-and-health/...
"Most vegans" ... risk heart disease, stroke and pregnancy complications! "Most vegans". Most! Because they don't get enough B12!
But you insist that "plants are enough" and that everyone can get enough B12 from nori and seaweed, which is patently false. And when you're challenged about it, you pretend you've been saying that all along: don't forget your supplements folks! (in parentheses).
Well, why do you need supplements when your diet is healthy? Why do you need supplements if "plants are enough"? Why do you need supplements if you can get enough B12 fron nori and seaweed?
Because plants are not enough. You need a balanced diet to stay healthy and if you cut meat and animal products from your diet your are putting your health at risk.
But you and other vegans will never admit that because it just doesn't look good. You just want people to stop eating meat and if that means never telling them how dangerous that is to their health, well so be it.
Irresponsible, dishonest, fanatical liars.
> I didn't reply to this
I've just tried to extract the core of my position, and of yours. Sorry if I was not clear enough (I don't like to spend my time in discussions, so I'm maybe too hasty in formulating my comments).
> Plants are enough (again, don't forget your B12 vegan supplements).
Does it mean you don't need to supplement? Doesn't it mean you may eat only plant-based diet, with B12 supplementation, and then be healthy? Maybe my english is worse than i thought.
> You have no interest in a curious and intelligent conversation. All you want is to propagandise your vegan ideology.
If there is any propaganda, it's of meat & dairy industry. Any connection, cheese queen?
> "Most vegans" ... risk heart disease, stroke and pregnancy complications! "Most vegans". Most! Because they don't get enough B12!
Hence the supplementation. Me & my wife have been supplementing from the start, several years now, and take regular blood tests. No problems what so ever. My doctor quipped that he've never seen such optimal blood test as mine is (all values in the optimal range).
> Well, why do you need supplements when your diet is healthy?
Because B12 in the meat is from earth bacteria (ideally, or from vitamins the animals are fed). We wash our food, animals don't. But we can rely on our marvelous production capabilities, and produce required supplements from vegan, non-animal sources, directly for human population.
With veganism on the rise there is more and more fortified foods available, so I suppose it will be less and less problem in the future.
> Because plants are not enough. You need a balanced diet to stay healthy and if you cut meat and animal products from your diet your are putting your health at risk.
No, you are not putting your health at risk. There is where my beef with your position is.
Western diet is linked to a lot of health problems. A lot of those problems is linked to meat/dairy intake. For example, milk/cheese is linked to alzheimer/parkinson, meat is full of herbicides/pesticides/omega-6, eggs are full of cholesterol ... you're deliberaly ignoring that with B12 supplementation a plant based diet is healthier.
> Irresponsible, dishonest, fanatical liars.
You seem very angry, determined in your ways, and nitpicky. I dont' have time to discuss this further with you. Have a nice day!
What is your doctor measuring?
> A blood B12 level measurement is a very unreliable test for vegans, particularly for vegans using any form of algae. Algae and some other plant foods contain B12-analogues (false B12) that can imitate true B12 in blood tests while actually interfering with B12 metabolism. Blood counts are also unreliable as high folate intakes suppress the anaemia symptoms of B12 deficiency that can be detected by blood counts. Blood homocysteine testing is more reliable, with levels less than 10 micromol/litre being desirable. The most specific test for B12 status is MMA testing. If this is in the normal range in blood (<370 nmol/L) or urine (less than 4 mcg /mg creatinine) then your body has enough B12. Many doctors still rely on blood B12 levels and blood counts. These are not adequate, especially in vegans.
https://www.vegansociety.com/resources/nutrition-and-health/...
My handle is "cheese_goddess" and I'm an amateur cheesemaker, you puerile buffoon.
> Western diet is linked to a lot of health problems. A lot of those problems is linked to meat/dairy intake. For example, milk/cheese is linked to alzheimer/parkinson, meat is full of herbicides/pesticides/omega-6, eggs are full of cholesterol ... you're deliberaly ignoring that with B12 supplementation a plant based diet is healthier.
You are misinformed:
Preventive Effects of Dairy Products on Dementia and the Underlying Mechanisms
> Alongside the rapid population aging occurring worldwide, the prevention of age-related memory decline and dementia has become a high priority. Dairy products have many physiological effects owing to their contents of lactic acid bacteria and the fatty acids and peptides generated during their fermentation. In particular, several recent studies have elucidated the effects of fermented dairy products on cognitive function. Epidemiological and clinical evidence has indicated that fermented dairy products have preventive effects against dementia, including Alzheimer’s disease. Recent preclinical studies have identified individual molecules generated during fermentation that are responsible for those preventive effects. Oleamide and dehydroergosterol have been identified as the agents responsible for reducing microglial inflammatory responses and neurotoxicity. In this review, the protective effects of fermented dairy products and their components on cognitive function, the mechanisms underlying those effects, and the prospects for their future clinical development will be discussed.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6073537/
Are chicken eggs good or bad for my cholesterol?
> Chicken eggs are an affordable source of protein and other nutrients. They're also naturally high in cholesterol. But the cholesterol in eggs doesn't seem to raise cholesterol levels the way some other foods, such as those high in trans fats and saturated fats, do.
https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/high-blood-ch...
Health effects of vegetarian and vegan diets
> Overall, the data suggest that the health of Western vegetarians is good and similar to that of comparable non-vegetarians.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16441942/
("Similar" is not "better". I'm also not a native English speaker and that's no excuse to not be able to read).
How a vegan diet could affect your intelligence
> Later in life, the amount of B12 in a person’s blood has been directly correlated with their IQ. In the elderly, one study found that the brains of those with lower B12 were six times more likely to be shrinking.
https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20200127-how-a-vegan-diet...
Vegan diets are adding to malnutrition in wealthy countries
https://theconversation.com/vegan-diets-are-adding-to-malnut...
Is a vegan diet healthier? Five reasons why we can’t tell for sure
https://theconversation.com/is-a-vegan-diet-healthier-five-r...
Why we shouldn’t all be vegan
> And, if vegetarian diets show that traditional markers for heart disease, such as “total cholesterol”, are usually improved, this is not the case for the more predictive (and thus valuable) markers such as the triglyceride/HDL (or “good” cholesterol) ratio, which even tend to deteriorate.
https://theconversation.com/why-we-shouldnt-all-be-vegan-109...
> Have a nice day!
Aw, you too! And don't forget your B12 supplements! Or else your brain will shrink.
Give me an example of the reverse happening. We cannot "choose" our way out of this situation by somehow getting the entire globe to agree to want less.
There are lots of other examples. Domestic violence against a spouse, and violence against children, are things that have changed a lot. Things that were once considered normal, like marital rape or beating a misbehaving child, are now socially unacceptable in many societies.
You are right that history tends towards more freedom. But also towards being more moral (which can mean less freedom in a technical sense). Eating less meat would be an example of that, and it is happening today, just slowly. If more of us make the effort, we can speed it up and help save the planet. It really is a choice each of us can make right now!
You are also right that we don't need to just wait on personal choices. That might not be enough. We can also get governments to subsidize plant-based food to make it cheaper than meat, for example.
It's always the same thing, when a post is about the environment the vegans come in and start telling everyone to stop eating meat to save the planet.
But somehow I don't see vegans ever telling people to drive less, walk more, wash their clothes by hand, not throw out electronic devices just to get new ones etc etc, it's just eating meat that you want them to stop doing. Yet, the cause of climate change, and its main driver, is burning fossil fuels, not farming. 3/4s of carbon emissions come from burning fossil fuels for enegry production in sectors other than agriculture:
https://ourworldindata.org/emissions-by-sector#sector-by-sec...
But when vegans are concerned about the environment it's always eating less meat they tell others to do, not burn less fossil fuels. Why? Why is it more urgent to stop 1/4 of the damage to the environment that 3/4s?
It's not more urgent, it's just your ideology that says it's more important to eat less meat than stop climate change.
I wish that HN had clear guidelines against trying to prosyletise people into somebody's political, or metaphysical beliefs.
In both of my comments above I didn't ask people to stop eating meat. Just to eat less of it.
> But somehow I don't see vegans ever telling people to drive less, walk more, wash their clothes by hand, not throw out electronic devices just to get new ones etc etc
I and most vegans I know do most of the above. (I'd also add "fly less" to the list, that one has a big impact!)
You are right, the 1/4 is not more urgent than the 3/4. (But let's make progress on all of it!)
Overall, I get that you've encountered some annoying vegans. Some are vocal and toxic. But please don't judge us by that small group. And regardless of what you think of vegans, that's just the messenger, while the message that eating less meat helps the planet is true regardless.
That behaviour, which is typical among vegans, vocal, toxic, or whatever, is dangerous and destructive because it detracts from the true source of climate change: burning fossil fuels. Not one of you, ever, never, will start talking about the environment by saying that "3/4s of carbon emissions come from sectors other than farming, but..." or something like that.
Oh no. You folks jump straight into the meat business. And you only comment about the environment when there's a chance to tell people not to eat meat. Because you dont' really care about the environment. All you care about is that people don't eat meat.
And "eat less meat" is just one step towards that. It's not about saving the environment, it's about getting everyone to go vegan.
It's your ideology and you're here to promote it. It's like the Hare Krishna. You care about nothing else but meat and getting people off it. No intelligent discussion, no curiosity, no nothing except "Go Vegan! Now!".
Likewise humans (like other animals) will always have tribal and territorial tendencies manifested in enslavement, war and conquest. First-world nations developed over centuries and still have countless problems, and they're only a minority of the global population. The current reality is far worse for billions of people around the world from rural China to Africa to North Korea.
Do you really think this all continues because it's just a story? If these situations are so easily changed then please go ahead and do so.
While I'd absolutely accept that wild humans are omnivores, your first statement here is false — there are many kinds of animal flesh and organs (tree branches are more like bones than anything else) that are bad for humans, and can even be lethal. Even some meats which are safe in moderation can cause harm if they're the only one being consumed.
But I'd also argue that it's important that we're not wild any more. We may not be able to eat wood, but we can burn it to create an external second stomach in the process we call "cooking".
Now I think about it, it's also important that the environment is, by our actions, radically different to the one we evolved for. Both plants and animals have been changed by many generations of selective breeding to be better suited to our dietary desires. (And other desires, but those don't matter for this topic).
I am really dying to know what exactly you mean by that. Just yesterday I murdered a couple plates of spaghetti with a sauce with onions, garlic, baby tomatoes, tomato puree, and plenty of paprika, cayenne, black, green and white pepper, all sauteyd in extra virgin olive oil. The only thing that wasn't plants in that was the whey from my cheesemaking that I use in cooking to avoid waste. Works great to thicken sauces, soups, stews, etc.
Today was cheesemaking day so I didn't have time to cook and I only had a salad, but I'm bringing up yesterday's meal because I can say with certainty that it was digested. Like, around this morning when I got up I could not miss it.
So what the hell do you mean "we cannot digest any plants"? Who's we? Sharks? Cats? Spiders? Who?
Seems like you have a very special definition of easy.
― Steve Perry, Men In Black
It’s not like we found out yesterday we’ll all die unless we change our ways. We’ve known this for at least a generation and, yet, we keep building the political-industrial systems that will bring our extinction in exchange for some short-term individual gains.
I’m not innocent of that either: last year we weighted our options and we ended up getting a gas-powered car because the EV equivalent would still be more expensive over the three year lease.
Feeding everyone a vegan diet and making sure that everyone is scrupulously watching their nutrients and taking appropriate supllementation on a planetary scale moves your "simple solution" to the realm of science fantasy.
Meat eaters were also advised to take vitamin D.
Lots of foods are already fortified with these vitamins.
I don't do anything extra other than eating a well balanced plant-based diet. Had my blood-work done recently (48 biomarkers) and it was all good. No deficiencies.
It is simple and definitely worth the effort - because the result will be not destroying our biosphere due to our meat & dairy addiction.
> Meat eaters were also advised to take vitamin D.
> Lots of foods are already fortified with these vitamins.
Maybe where you live, but certainly not where I live, and where I eat. Don't project the destructive ways of your culture on everyone else. Not everyone eats the way you do.
I for instance, have been brought up on a Mediterrannean diet since birth and I still cook and eat for myself and my people the same way. The Mediterrannean diet is a plant based diet rich in vegetables, fruit, pulses, legumes, and also fish and dairy and overflowing with rivers of extra virgin olive oil. 80% of the traditional dishes in my culture have no animal products in them, or they have only dairy. In my entire life I will probably consume less meat and fewer animal products than any citizen of an industrialised country who turned vegan in their twenties.
So I'll take no preaching from you about how I eat, thank you very much. Fix your world and don't mind mine. It's not my lifestyle that is "destroying our biosphere", it is yours, and that of the people who live around you.
... meat and dairy addiction ... Faah. What clueless garbage! Milk and dairy is the richess of my land. You exploit your land to death and then you blame everyone else for your own failings?
Big fan of Mediterranean dishes and yes if more people would have a diet like yours, i.e. more plant based dishes with occasional meat products then that would help immensely fighting deforestation and biosphere destruction.
My comment was NOT directed at you personally - since I don't know what your circumstances are. So thanks for clarifying.
I was only commenting on your statement that it's not simple to get all the nutrients when you're on a plant-based diet.
Most meat & dairy consumed on this planet comes from factory farms - that's why it's so 'cheap'. And those animals are pumped with antibiotics and they also get supplements, like B12. What I'm saying is we can cut out the 'middle-man' and consume those vitamins directly - or let the food industry fortify more foods with those vitamins.
And the reason why I mentioned addiction - because it is - here in the Western world anyway.
Listen to this podcast by the Physicians for Responsible Medicine.
https://www.pcrm.org/news/exam-room-podcast/cheese-trap
If we'd reduce our cheese consumption - we could reduce so many health problems and also free up the stress on our health system.
> You exploit your land to death
It's more the animals that are exploited to death and for what?
That's not right. What you say does not apply to "this planet". It applies to "the United States", where factory farms are the norm. But they are not the norm outside the USA.
For example, FAO reports that 1/3 of the world's food is produced by "family farms" (both animal and crop farms) which tend to be small and are in any case not CAFOs ("concentrated animal feeding operations").
This article quantifies the percentage of "smallholder" farmers to 80% (I haven't been able to find a better source for that number):
https://sustainabilitycommunity.springernature.com/posts/are...
Note the discrepancy: 1/3 of the world's food is produced by "family farms" but 80% of all farmers are "smallholders". That's because most food is produced and consumed in rich, industrialised countries, and the rest of the world is starving. Meat is certainly not "cheap" for, say, Ghanaian farmers, or their children! Neither is it as plentiful as for American office workers and their children.
It might well be that the majority of beef in particular, is produced in factory farms, but that is because CAFOs is where the vast majority of beef is produced in the US which is one of the largest consumers of beef on the entire planet. The citizens of the US, Argentina and Brazil consume annually, per capita, almost twice as much as the citizens of other industrialised countries:
https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/per-capita-meat-type?coun...
As to antibiotics, the EU has now banned the preventive use of antibiotics in farm animals:
https://sciencemediahub.eu/2019/01/03/antibiotics-on-farms-e...
And the supplementation of animals with B12 also appears to be a uniquely American thing, as far as I can tell. Certainly where I live, farming is mainly free-range and B12 supplementation is not necessary, at least according to my understanding, that free-grazing animals take their B12 from the bacterial flora of their wild feed... which is also responsible for the terroir of my cheeses, incidentally.
> It's more the animals that are exploited to death and for what?
That is not my question to answer. My problem is that those destructive methods that your people employ are spreading around the world and slowly taking over the farming and agriculture in my part of the world. Those practices, or the people that promote them, are my mortal enemies. Those practices go against everything I stand for and against everything I believe in. They destroy the traditions that have kept my people healthy and well-nourished for generations, even through poverty and war. They destroy our animals, and they destroy our relation with our animals. The day that all meat and dairy production in my land will be from CAFOs, is the day that we will all have turned into Americans.
And then, I will never make cheese again.
More and more countries are trying to improve the efficiency of their meat production. It's not just the US. It's also China, India, Europe. Factory farming is efficient - but it's very destructive
And it's a problem. Feeding the world with animal meat (without curbing demand) is not sustainable - see https://ourworldindata.org/environmental-impacts-of-food. All those animal products have the highest GHG emissions.
As per my other reply... Is it logical to feed the world with products that require the most resources and have the most devastating impacts on our biosphere?
> That is not my question to answer.
Why not? Wouldn't you want to avoid exploitation and violence where possible?
> And then, I will never make cheese again.
Have you tried making cheese with other types of milk? It's pretty amazing how far we got with making non-dairy cheese products.
Anyway, tell you what. You make your vegan nut paste and age it for a year. See what that gets you. Actually, I'll tell you: you'll get a dessicated, crumbly, bitter, mold-ridden mess. After a year, my sheep's milk hard chees is ... still cheese. It has a musky, gamey, smokey aroma, it has a piquant taste and you can feel the little lactic crystals curnching undertooth as you chew.
That is cheese.
And, no, you're never gonna get there with vegan nut paste. Not in a hundred years. Because plant proteins are not caseins, and because cheese is a gel made of coagulated casein, and vegan nut past is a paste. And a hundred other chemical, biological, organoleptic etc etc qualities that clearly distinguish cheese, from non cheese.
The only people you can convince that nut paste tastes like cheese are people used to eating processed cheese (American cheese) and other such abominations. Like you can fake burgers and nuggets, but not a steak, you can fake fake cheese, but not real cheese.
Down with fake food! I don't understand why vegans keep supporting the very food industry that is destroying the environment and torturing animals. It's the same people who sold you beef burgers when you weren't yet vegan that want to sell you pea burgers now that you are. Why do you think they'll care what you eat, or how destructive, or immoral its production is?
> All those animal products have the highest GHG emissions.
Highest- among all types of food we're currently producing. Their emissiosn still do not compare to the emissions that come from burning fossil fuels. See:
https://ourworldindata.org/ghg-emissions-by-sector
Three quarters of (CO2 adjusted) emissions come from energy production, the vast majority of which is by burning fossil fuels. Emissions from all of agriculture (farming and crops) are about 18%.
It is clear what is destroying the environment. But you and other vegans keep banging on and on about how it is meat that's destroying the environment. Why? You're just playing into the hands of the oil companies. And not only you're not doing anything to protect the environment, but by distracting from the real source of climate change, you're making it even harder to convince people to change their nature-destroying habbit of burning fossil fuels.
So, I'm sorry, but at this point I consider every vegan who tells me meat destroys the environment to be dishonest, unless they are an actual environmental activist, rather than a vegan activist (or just someone who likes to argue vegan on the internet).
Why can't we fill our bellies with food that doesn't involve exploiting and killing other sentient animals?
If you have your own farm then ignore the above. It's a general question regarding the global food production. But not everyone can have their own farm - so that way of life is not scalable - if the majority of 9B people want to eat meat. It can only become sustainable, if it becomes extremely expensive and demand is curbed.
> And, no, you're never gonna get there with vegan nut paste Never say never - we humans are quite ingenious and finding ways to do things better.
> Highest- among all types of food we're currently producing. > I consider every vegan who tells me meat destroys the environment to be dishonest
It's not just GHG, but also:
- Greater water usage required for meat & dairy diet
- Biodiversity loss
- Deforestation
- Soil degradation
The IPCC recommends a shift towards a more plant-based diet to mitigate the climate crisis.
So are you calling hundreds of climate scientist dishonest? Here are plenty of resources to back up the claim that our current meat heavy diets are destructive and that a global shift to a plant-based diet is required to avert climate catastrophe. https://www.ipcc.ch/srccl/chapter/chapter-5/
Here are some quotes from experts in the field:
Dr Peter Carter, IPCC expert reviewer and Director of the Climate Emergency Institute stated: “The science is definite, global climate catastrophe cannot be averted without the elimination of meat and dairy in our diet, and that must happen fast.”
Courtney Vail, Campaign Director at Oceanic Preservation Society, added: “Changing our diets from a focus on animal-based to plant-based products is one of the most powerful things we can do to positively impact the world. Animal agriculture utilizes precious water resources, releases climate-altering greenhouse gases into the atmosphere, and reduces the planet’s ability to sequester carbon by destroying diverse ecosystems.”
Nah, you're moving the goal posts just to get a chance to say your little propaganda slogan. What I asked was: "I don't get why you have to eat fake food when you're vegan? ". You want to talk about that?
Because that's what I want to know. You don't want to eat meat? OK. You don't want to eat dairy? Then don't! But you want to eat fake cheese and fake meat? I mean, still, it's none of my business what you eat, knock yourself out. But, why? Fake is fake. It should be obvious why it's ... fake?
> So are you calling hundreds of climate scientist dishonest?
No, I'm calling you and other internet vegans dishonest, because you're using environmental issues as a cover to promote your vegan agenda.
Btw, "hundreds of climate scientists" don't say we should all go vegan to save the environment, like vegans like to pretend. The IPCC report you linked doesn't say anything like that. Environmental activists don't even say anything like that. What environmental scientists say is that a shift is needed towards a plant based diet. That is the kind of diet I eat: 2/3s plants and 1/3 animal foods (dairy, meat, seafood, etc).
But vegans like you are trying really hard to fudge the meaning of "plant-based" to make it synonymous with "vegan". And it's obvious why you're doing it: now all the environmental scientists who say a shift to a plant-based diet is needed are suddendly advocating for veganism!
That is the dishonesty I'm talking about. It's the same kind of dishonesty and the same kind of social engineering tactic as calling nut paste "cheese".
Well, your silly little games aren't paying off. Meat consumption keeps increasing. CAFOs keep getting built. Animals keep getting tortured. Scores of people sign up for Veganuary and go back to devouring burgers and sausages as soon as they have. Instagram is full of fashionable vegans and yet the vast majority of the population are not even vegetarian, not even flexitarian.
Dishonesty doesn't work. You can't have your cake and eat it. Either you tell people the truth, and nothing but the truth, and you hope they can do the right thing, or you keep lying and they keep ignoring you as extreme fanatical zealots.
It's just an alternative that doesn't involve killing animals. For example, beyond burgers or impossible burgers, helps meat eaters who want to reduce their environmental footprint, transition to a more plant-based diet.
Or say you want to have spaghetti bolognese - instead of using minced animal meat you use an plant-based alternative which is better. And most people don't notice a difference these days.
Or say chicken nuggets - the plant based alternative - pretty amazing and in blind tests most people couldn't tell.
Food science is pretty amazing these days.
So what's wrong with that?
I personally don't need those products, as I don't have a craving for meat or dairy. But I have them some times.
But others do crave it, but they don't want to support factory farms - so these plant-based alternative products help.
And what is vegan propaganda?
All veganism does is promote a life style that's free from cruelty as much as possible.
What is wrong with reducing cruelty and environmental destruction?
Because chicken nuggets are shit food and they don't even taste like chicken anyway. That's because they're made with pink slurry, bits of chicken mechanically separated from bones and chemically treated until they're transformed into a vile, noxious paste, the lowest-grade meat that is allowed for human consumption. That's why they're so cheap.
Here, this is how chicken nuggets are made:
https://youtu.be/kS3kmulj20M?t=621
And here's a little close up:
https://youtu.be/kS3kmulj20M?t=654
Aaw. Isn't food science amazing these days?
That's what your vegan nuggets replace. And they do a great job at it! Because they're equally shit.
Fake food replacing fake food for people who don't know what real food tastes like anymore. That is the dystopian reality we live in, but for vegans it's paradise.
> And what is vegan propaganda?
Oh, well, for example lying about the role of meat production in environmental destruction and trying to get people to believe it's farming that's destroying the environment rather than buring fossil fuels. That's propaganda, and it's dangerous propaganda from people who care not a shit about the environment and only care about meat meat meat.
Again, are you saying that Oxford Uni, IPCC, UN and many other credible organizations are lying?
> transformed into a vile, noxious paste, the lowest-grade meat that is allowed for human consumption.
Have you ever watched how actual chicken nuggets are produced? Have you ever watched what goes on in the meat & dairy industry? You can find out more here: http://www.nationearth.com/
In the meat industry you have disgusting pink slime. See https://www.livescience.com/33786-pink-slime.html
No, I'm saying they're not saying what you're saying they're saying.
> Have you ever watched how actual chicken nuggets are produced?
Yep. That's what I linked you to, above. How chicken nuggets are made. Read my earlier comment again:
> That's what your vegan nuggets replace. And they do a great job at it! Because they're equally shit.
Get it?
Oh, wait, you think because I don't want to eat your fake nuggets, that can only mean I want to eat the chicken ones? Black and white thinking, typical of fanatics with little understanding of the world beyond their gurus' teachings.
So the latest report from UN's IPCC says this:
“In addition to climate mitigation gains, a transition towards more plant-based consumption and reduced consumption of animal-based foods, particularly from ruminant animals, could reduce pressure on forests and land used for feed, support the preservation of biodiversity and planetary health, and contribute to preventing forms of malnutrition (i.e. undernutrition, micronutrient deficiency, and obesity) in developing countries. Other co-benefits include lowering the risk of cardiovascular disease, type 2 diabetes, and reducing mortality from diet-related non-communicable diseases.”
From: https://www.ipcc.ch/report/ar6/wg3/
An Oxford Uni study said this:
“Imbalanced diets, such as diets low in fruits and vegetables, and high in red and processed meat, are responsible for the greatest health burden globally and in most regions. At the same time the food system is also responsible for more than a quarter of all greenhouse gas emissions, and therefore a major driver of climate change.”
From: https://www.oxfordmartin.ox.ac.uk/news/201603-plant-based-di...
So the message is clear - shifting to a more plant-base diet is the single biggest way an individual can do to reduce their environmental impact.
> Yep. That's what I linked you to, above. How chicken nuggets are made.
I misunderstood. I thought you meant plant based chicken nuggets, which they weren't, hence why it was confusing.
I'm talking about Quorn nuggets (Mycoprotein) - look at how they are produced compared to how nuggets made from animal flesh are made. Looks way cleaner and not as disgusting.
And they are also healthier:
"Clinical trials on Quorn show that it can improve satiety and help people control cholesterol, blood sugar, and insulin levels."
From: https://nutritionfacts.org/video/the-health-effects-of-mycop...
So the point is - these products will help people who like chicken nuggets or burgers - transition to a more plant-based diet. Nobody is telling you to eat them.
You clearly think animals are just like potatoes and can be treated accordingly - like an object. Whether they have to endure pain or suffering doesn't matter to you - as long as you get your cheese and meat.
> Oh, wait, you think because I don't want to eat your fake nuggets, that can only mean I want to eat the chicken ones?
Who said anything about you having to eat plant based nuggets? This whole discussion wasn't about what you - cheese_goddess - personally eat. It was about how to feed the world sustainably and without effing up our biosphere. Our current system is not sustainable, because of animal factory farming. Getting protein from animals at this scale is illogical. And on top of that - it's cruel.
> Black and white thinking, typical of fanatics with little understanding of the world beyond their gurus' teachings.
What guru? And what teachings are you talking about?
I follow 2 principles:
1) Evidence based - I rely on our scientific community. The conclusion from those credible sources, i.e. IPCC, UN, PCRM, Oxford Uni, and many others, clearly state a move towards a plant-based diet is required to help avert a climate crisis and environmental damage.
2) Observational data... i.e. I've been to farms and more importantly watched enough videos of factory farms and slaughterhouses. It's cruel and you can see the pain & fear in the animals eyes. Do you really think killing a baby sheep just because we want to taste its soft and juicy flesh when it's not necessary for our survival is morally justified? Is it morally justified to kill another sentient being for taste pleasure?
Also, let's look up the definition of fanatic - according to a dictionary it means "a person exhibiting excessive enthusiasm and intense uncritical devotion".
The way you argued and the way you continue to ignore scientific evidence points to an 'intense uncritical devotion' and you choosing your current username - cheese_goddess - seems to suggest you match this line 'exhibiting excessive enthusiasm'.
Again - I encourage you to switch off your bias towards the false image you have of veganism (= reduced or no cruelty) and look at the scientific evidence instead.
A "more plant-based diet" is not a vegan diet and no environmental organisation is saying that everyone should go vegan to save the planet. But we've been through all this already.
> So the point is - these products will help people who like chicken nuggets or burgers - transition to a more plant-based diet.
And keep them for ever in the thrall of a food industry that wants to sell them shit and that doesn't give a flying fig about the environment, about animal rights, or about peoples' health or culture.
The food industry is responsible for the destruction of the environment and the torture of animals that you pretend to care so much about. It is responsible for the destruction of food cultures and for the destruction of farmers' livelihoods and way of life. And yet, you are very happy to cheer this same food industry on when it produces more industrial shit just because they don't have meat in them? Why?
Because you don't really care about the environment, about animal suffering, or about peoples' lives. That's why. You only care about one singular subject: meat. Meat meat meat meat meat. That's all you can think about.
> The way you argued and the way you continue to ignore scientific evidence points to an 'intense uncritical devotion' and you choosing your current username - cheese_goddess - seems to suggest you match this line 'exhibiting excessive enthusiasm'.
Pfffhahaha. That's just a laughable attempt to try and turn the tables on me. It doesn't work because I don't have any ideology, I'm not the one trying to tell people what to do, or not do, and I'm not the one trying to guilt trip people into accepting my ideology. And I'm not the one who is trying to twist science and activism to my own ends.
But you are. Because you're a fanatic, a zealot, a follower, a cult member. You don't like it? Get used to it.
Where did I say that? I would suggest you read more carefully and not just place words in other people's mouths.
I said a 'more plant-based diet', which means a reduction in meat consumption. And guess what - if more people would choose to follow this advice given by those organizations listed previously - it would mean fewer animals would have to be killed, which in turn means less cruelty towards animals overall and environmental destruction, i.e. a more vegan planet.
And read the official definition of veganism I posted earlier. It's not dogmatic, but rather promotes pragmatism. It says to avoid exploiting animals when practically possible, which means that it's unavoidable to eat meat when you need it to survive and there are no other foods available.
> The food industry is responsible for the destruction of the environment
Yes agreed. Our food system is not sustainable - that's why it needs to change.
> Because you don't really care about the environment, about animal suffering, or about peoples' lives.
If I don't care about animal suffering or the environment, why have I given up supporting the meat & dairy industry and stopped consuming their products? Doesn't make sense, does it?
> Pfffhahaha. That's just a laughable attempt to try and turn the tables on me.
How am I turning the tables? You called me a fanatic and being part of a cult. I merely explained, based on the official definition of fanatic - your behavior and comments show traits of being a fanatic, someone who isn't able to shift their opinion, even if there is ample evidence to show their opinion is flawed. Your opinion seems to be a) meat industry doesn't destroy the environment, b) animals don't suffer or feel pain.
> It doesn't work because I don't have any ideology
Definition of Ideology: "a manner or the content of thinking characteristic of an individual, group, or culture"
Based on your comments, your ideology seems to be that animals are here to serve us, it's OK to exploit and kill them regardless of consequences. It's OK for them to suffer so we can have our cheese & meat. Tradition trumps logic and critical thinking. Many people have that view about animals - so wouldn't you say you're part of that group - sharing the same content of thinking?
> You only care about one singular subject: meat. Meat meat meat meat meat.
What do you mean? I don't follow. I mentioned several subjects. So for your benefit, let me list them again:
- Protecting the Environment
- Animal rights - not taking their life against their will
- Not supporting an industry that makes factory farm workers suffer from PTSD
> But you are. Because you're a fanatic, a zealot, a follower, a cult member. You don't like it? Get used to it.
So a 'follower' of scientific evidence means I'm part of a cult and I'm a fanatic?
A fanatic usually doesn't change their opinion when presented with evidence. Show me the evidence that:
A) animal factory farming doesn't create environmental damage
B) animals are like plants - i.e. animals don't suffer and that's why it's OK to kill and exploit them.
I used to eat meat when I was a teenager - but then changed my opinion when I saw what damage my eating habits caused.
Sorry to say this, but the term fanatic applies more to your current behavior - as you ignore the evidence.
Please explain how my replies were spitefully unpleasant?
I'm trying to have a meaningful debate.
I presented you with ample evidence - even your own articles you posted and yet you've not answered most of my questions.
Instead you resort to snotty comments like this one.