You like cheese, I get it. Care to elaborate?
> So plants are not enough?
Yes, they are. See my other comment to you in this discussion (I've even listed some numbers for you). But I've got a hunch not even that will be enough for you.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UcN7SGGoCNI - Dairy is scary !
Serum concentrations of vitamin B12 and folate in British male omnivores, vegetarians and vegans: results from a cross-sectional analysis of the EPIC-Oxford cohort study
> Vegans have lower vitamin B12 concentrations, but higher folate concentrations, than vegetarians and omnivores. Half of the vegans were categorized as vitamin B12 deficient and would be expected to have a higher risk of developing clinical symptoms related to vitamin B12 deficiency.
https://www.nature.com/articles/ejcn2010142.?mod=article_inl...
The prevalence of cobalamin deficiency among vegetarians assessed by serum vitamin B12: a review of literature
> Higher deficiency prevalence was reported in vegans than in other vegetarians. Thus, with few exceptions, the reviewed studies documented relatively high deficiency prevalence among vegetarians. Vegans who do not ingest vitamin B12 supplements were found to be at especially high risk. Vegetarians, especially vegans, should give strong consideration to the use of vitamin B12 supplements to ensure adequate vitamin B12 intake.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24667752/
Vitamin B12 Sources and Bioavailability
> Most of the edible blue-green algae (cyanobacteria) used for human supplements predominately contain pseudovitamin B12, which is inactive in humans. The edible cyanobacteria are not suitable for use as vitamin B12 sources, especially in vegans.
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.3181/0703-MR-67
Bonus study:
Subacute Combined Degeneration of the Spinal Cord in Vegetarians: Vegetarian's Myelopathy
https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/internalmedicine/45/10/...
Nice, huh?
> Dairy is scary
But malnutrition is scarier.
> Yes, they are.
So why do you need supplements?
Better read that Cognitive Dissonance link carefully.
Or this one:
> (you) But malnutrition is scarier.
I said that plants & B12 vegan supplements are enough. What I meant is (and was not maybe clear enough), that we as humans do not need to rely on animals, even if we'd be supplementing our diet with some pills (IMHO B12 supplement from vegan sources is enough). You seem to be equating veganism with malnutrition.
American Dietetic Association: "It is the position of the American Dietetic Association that appropriately planned vegetarian diets, including total vegetarian or vegan diets, are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. Well-planned vegetarian diets are appropriate for individuals during all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, and adolescence, and for athletes." https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19562864
NHS: "A vegetarian or vegan diet can be suitable for everyone, regardless of their age." https://www.nhs.uk/live-well/eat-well/healthy-eating-vegetar...
British Dietetic Association: "As a result of the memorandum the BDA and The Vegan Society will: - Work together to show that it is possible to follow a well-planned, plant-based, vegan friendly diet that supports healthy living in people of all ages, and during pregnancy and breastfeeding." https://www.bda.uk.com/about/workwithus/bda_and_vegan_societ...
I didn't reply to this:
> Plants are enough (again, don't forget your B12 vegan supplements).
With this:
> But malnutrition is scarier.
I replied to this:
> Plants are enough (again, don't forget your B12 vegan supplements).
With this:
> Plants are enough but you need B12 supplements? What for?
You have no interest in a curious and intelligent conversation. All you want is to propagandise your vegan ideology. You will lie, and lie, and ignore everything everyone says, unless they say something that suits you.
And even that, you will try to twist to your own purpose. Everything you quote from the American Dietetic Association and the NHS and so on, all that hinges on a vegan diet that is "well planned". Which is very hard to do and most vegans don't manage it. Here's the Vegan society again:
> Most vegans show adequate B12 levels to make clinical deficiency unlikely but nonetheless show restricted activity of B12 related enzymes, leading to elevated homocysteine levels. Strong evidence has been gathered over the past decade that even slightly elevated homocysteine levels increase risk of heart disease and stroke and pregnancy complications.
https://www.vegansociety.com/resources/nutrition-and-health/...
"Most vegans" ... risk heart disease, stroke and pregnancy complications! "Most vegans". Most! Because they don't get enough B12!
But you insist that "plants are enough" and that everyone can get enough B12 from nori and seaweed, which is patently false. And when you're challenged about it, you pretend you've been saying that all along: don't forget your supplements folks! (in parentheses).
Well, why do you need supplements when your diet is healthy? Why do you need supplements if "plants are enough"? Why do you need supplements if you can get enough B12 fron nori and seaweed?
Because plants are not enough. You need a balanced diet to stay healthy and if you cut meat and animal products from your diet your are putting your health at risk.
But you and other vegans will never admit that because it just doesn't look good. You just want people to stop eating meat and if that means never telling them how dangerous that is to their health, well so be it.
Irresponsible, dishonest, fanatical liars.
> I didn't reply to this
I've just tried to extract the core of my position, and of yours. Sorry if I was not clear enough (I don't like to spend my time in discussions, so I'm maybe too hasty in formulating my comments).
> Plants are enough (again, don't forget your B12 vegan supplements).
Does it mean you don't need to supplement? Doesn't it mean you may eat only plant-based diet, with B12 supplementation, and then be healthy? Maybe my english is worse than i thought.
> You have no interest in a curious and intelligent conversation. All you want is to propagandise your vegan ideology.
If there is any propaganda, it's of meat & dairy industry. Any connection, cheese queen?
> "Most vegans" ... risk heart disease, stroke and pregnancy complications! "Most vegans". Most! Because they don't get enough B12!
Hence the supplementation. Me & my wife have been supplementing from the start, several years now, and take regular blood tests. No problems what so ever. My doctor quipped that he've never seen such optimal blood test as mine is (all values in the optimal range).
> Well, why do you need supplements when your diet is healthy?
Because B12 in the meat is from earth bacteria (ideally, or from vitamins the animals are fed). We wash our food, animals don't. But we can rely on our marvelous production capabilities, and produce required supplements from vegan, non-animal sources, directly for human population.
With veganism on the rise there is more and more fortified foods available, so I suppose it will be less and less problem in the future.
> Because plants are not enough. You need a balanced diet to stay healthy and if you cut meat and animal products from your diet your are putting your health at risk.
No, you are not putting your health at risk. There is where my beef with your position is.
Western diet is linked to a lot of health problems. A lot of those problems is linked to meat/dairy intake. For example, milk/cheese is linked to alzheimer/parkinson, meat is full of herbicides/pesticides/omega-6, eggs are full of cholesterol ... you're deliberaly ignoring that with B12 supplementation a plant based diet is healthier.
> Irresponsible, dishonest, fanatical liars.
You seem very angry, determined in your ways, and nitpicky. I dont' have time to discuss this further with you. Have a nice day!
What is your doctor measuring?
> A blood B12 level measurement is a very unreliable test for vegans, particularly for vegans using any form of algae. Algae and some other plant foods contain B12-analogues (false B12) that can imitate true B12 in blood tests while actually interfering with B12 metabolism. Blood counts are also unreliable as high folate intakes suppress the anaemia symptoms of B12 deficiency that can be detected by blood counts. Blood homocysteine testing is more reliable, with levels less than 10 micromol/litre being desirable. The most specific test for B12 status is MMA testing. If this is in the normal range in blood (<370 nmol/L) or urine (less than 4 mcg /mg creatinine) then your body has enough B12. Many doctors still rely on blood B12 levels and blood counts. These are not adequate, especially in vegans.
https://www.vegansociety.com/resources/nutrition-and-health/...
My handle is "cheese_goddess" and I'm an amateur cheesemaker, you puerile buffoon.
> Western diet is linked to a lot of health problems. A lot of those problems is linked to meat/dairy intake. For example, milk/cheese is linked to alzheimer/parkinson, meat is full of herbicides/pesticides/omega-6, eggs are full of cholesterol ... you're deliberaly ignoring that with B12 supplementation a plant based diet is healthier.
You are misinformed:
Preventive Effects of Dairy Products on Dementia and the Underlying Mechanisms
> Alongside the rapid population aging occurring worldwide, the prevention of age-related memory decline and dementia has become a high priority. Dairy products have many physiological effects owing to their contents of lactic acid bacteria and the fatty acids and peptides generated during their fermentation. In particular, several recent studies have elucidated the effects of fermented dairy products on cognitive function. Epidemiological and clinical evidence has indicated that fermented dairy products have preventive effects against dementia, including Alzheimer’s disease. Recent preclinical studies have identified individual molecules generated during fermentation that are responsible for those preventive effects. Oleamide and dehydroergosterol have been identified as the agents responsible for reducing microglial inflammatory responses and neurotoxicity. In this review, the protective effects of fermented dairy products and their components on cognitive function, the mechanisms underlying those effects, and the prospects for their future clinical development will be discussed.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6073537/
Are chicken eggs good or bad for my cholesterol?
> Chicken eggs are an affordable source of protein and other nutrients. They're also naturally high in cholesterol. But the cholesterol in eggs doesn't seem to raise cholesterol levels the way some other foods, such as those high in trans fats and saturated fats, do.
https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/high-blood-ch...
Health effects of vegetarian and vegan diets
> Overall, the data suggest that the health of Western vegetarians is good and similar to that of comparable non-vegetarians.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16441942/
("Similar" is not "better". I'm also not a native English speaker and that's no excuse to not be able to read).
How a vegan diet could affect your intelligence
> Later in life, the amount of B12 in a person’s blood has been directly correlated with their IQ. In the elderly, one study found that the brains of those with lower B12 were six times more likely to be shrinking.
https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20200127-how-a-vegan-diet...
Vegan diets are adding to malnutrition in wealthy countries
https://theconversation.com/vegan-diets-are-adding-to-malnut...
Is a vegan diet healthier? Five reasons why we can’t tell for sure
https://theconversation.com/is-a-vegan-diet-healthier-five-r...
Why we shouldn’t all be vegan
> And, if vegetarian diets show that traditional markers for heart disease, such as “total cholesterol”, are usually improved, this is not the case for the more predictive (and thus valuable) markers such as the triglyceride/HDL (or “good” cholesterol) ratio, which even tend to deteriorate.
https://theconversation.com/why-we-shouldnt-all-be-vegan-109...
> Have a nice day!
Aw, you too! And don't forget your B12 supplements! Or else your brain will shrink.
I saw the graph. You're using it wrong.
> B12 is necessary vitamin. Most people get their B12 from animal-based foods. But animals do not produce B12, it just bioaccumulates in them. My argument is, that we can go directly to the source (e.g. bacteria) and make supplements instead from vegan sources, free of harm & suffering.
So plants are not enough?