> Meat eaters were also advised to take vitamin D.
> Lots of foods are already fortified with these vitamins.
Maybe where you live, but certainly not where I live, and where I eat. Don't project the destructive ways of your culture on everyone else. Not everyone eats the way you do.
I for instance, have been brought up on a Mediterrannean diet since birth and I still cook and eat for myself and my people the same way. The Mediterrannean diet is a plant based diet rich in vegetables, fruit, pulses, legumes, and also fish and dairy and overflowing with rivers of extra virgin olive oil. 80% of the traditional dishes in my culture have no animal products in them, or they have only dairy. In my entire life I will probably consume less meat and fewer animal products than any citizen of an industrialised country who turned vegan in their twenties.
So I'll take no preaching from you about how I eat, thank you very much. Fix your world and don't mind mine. It's not my lifestyle that is "destroying our biosphere", it is yours, and that of the people who live around you.
... meat and dairy addiction ... Faah. What clueless garbage! Milk and dairy is the richess of my land. You exploit your land to death and then you blame everyone else for your own failings?
Big fan of Mediterranean dishes and yes if more people would have a diet like yours, i.e. more plant based dishes with occasional meat products then that would help immensely fighting deforestation and biosphere destruction.
My comment was NOT directed at you personally - since I don't know what your circumstances are. So thanks for clarifying.
I was only commenting on your statement that it's not simple to get all the nutrients when you're on a plant-based diet.
Most meat & dairy consumed on this planet comes from factory farms - that's why it's so 'cheap'. And those animals are pumped with antibiotics and they also get supplements, like B12. What I'm saying is we can cut out the 'middle-man' and consume those vitamins directly - or let the food industry fortify more foods with those vitamins.
And the reason why I mentioned addiction - because it is - here in the Western world anyway.
Listen to this podcast by the Physicians for Responsible Medicine.
https://www.pcrm.org/news/exam-room-podcast/cheese-trap
If we'd reduce our cheese consumption - we could reduce so many health problems and also free up the stress on our health system.
> You exploit your land to death
It's more the animals that are exploited to death and for what?
That's not right. What you say does not apply to "this planet". It applies to "the United States", where factory farms are the norm. But they are not the norm outside the USA.
For example, FAO reports that 1/3 of the world's food is produced by "family farms" (both animal and crop farms) which tend to be small and are in any case not CAFOs ("concentrated animal feeding operations").
This article quantifies the percentage of "smallholder" farmers to 80% (I haven't been able to find a better source for that number):
https://sustainabilitycommunity.springernature.com/posts/are...
Note the discrepancy: 1/3 of the world's food is produced by "family farms" but 80% of all farmers are "smallholders". That's because most food is produced and consumed in rich, industrialised countries, and the rest of the world is starving. Meat is certainly not "cheap" for, say, Ghanaian farmers, or their children! Neither is it as plentiful as for American office workers and their children.
It might well be that the majority of beef in particular, is produced in factory farms, but that is because CAFOs is where the vast majority of beef is produced in the US which is one of the largest consumers of beef on the entire planet. The citizens of the US, Argentina and Brazil consume annually, per capita, almost twice as much as the citizens of other industrialised countries:
https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/per-capita-meat-type?coun...
As to antibiotics, the EU has now banned the preventive use of antibiotics in farm animals:
https://sciencemediahub.eu/2019/01/03/antibiotics-on-farms-e...
And the supplementation of animals with B12 also appears to be a uniquely American thing, as far as I can tell. Certainly where I live, farming is mainly free-range and B12 supplementation is not necessary, at least according to my understanding, that free-grazing animals take their B12 from the bacterial flora of their wild feed... which is also responsible for the terroir of my cheeses, incidentally.
> It's more the animals that are exploited to death and for what?
That is not my question to answer. My problem is that those destructive methods that your people employ are spreading around the world and slowly taking over the farming and agriculture in my part of the world. Those practices, or the people that promote them, are my mortal enemies. Those practices go against everything I stand for and against everything I believe in. They destroy the traditions that have kept my people healthy and well-nourished for generations, even through poverty and war. They destroy our animals, and they destroy our relation with our animals. The day that all meat and dairy production in my land will be from CAFOs, is the day that we will all have turned into Americans.
And then, I will never make cheese again.
More and more countries are trying to improve the efficiency of their meat production. It's not just the US. It's also China, India, Europe. Factory farming is efficient - but it's very destructive
And it's a problem. Feeding the world with animal meat (without curbing demand) is not sustainable - see https://ourworldindata.org/environmental-impacts-of-food. All those animal products have the highest GHG emissions.
As per my other reply... Is it logical to feed the world with products that require the most resources and have the most devastating impacts on our biosphere?
> That is not my question to answer.
Why not? Wouldn't you want to avoid exploitation and violence where possible?
> And then, I will never make cheese again.
Have you tried making cheese with other types of milk? It's pretty amazing how far we got with making non-dairy cheese products.
Anyway, tell you what. You make your vegan nut paste and age it for a year. See what that gets you. Actually, I'll tell you: you'll get a dessicated, crumbly, bitter, mold-ridden mess. After a year, my sheep's milk hard chees is ... still cheese. It has a musky, gamey, smokey aroma, it has a piquant taste and you can feel the little lactic crystals curnching undertooth as you chew.
That is cheese.
And, no, you're never gonna get there with vegan nut paste. Not in a hundred years. Because plant proteins are not caseins, and because cheese is a gel made of coagulated casein, and vegan nut past is a paste. And a hundred other chemical, biological, organoleptic etc etc qualities that clearly distinguish cheese, from non cheese.
The only people you can convince that nut paste tastes like cheese are people used to eating processed cheese (American cheese) and other such abominations. Like you can fake burgers and nuggets, but not a steak, you can fake fake cheese, but not real cheese.
Down with fake food! I don't understand why vegans keep supporting the very food industry that is destroying the environment and torturing animals. It's the same people who sold you beef burgers when you weren't yet vegan that want to sell you pea burgers now that you are. Why do you think they'll care what you eat, or how destructive, or immoral its production is?
> All those animal products have the highest GHG emissions.
Highest- among all types of food we're currently producing. Their emissiosn still do not compare to the emissions that come from burning fossil fuels. See:
https://ourworldindata.org/ghg-emissions-by-sector
Three quarters of (CO2 adjusted) emissions come from energy production, the vast majority of which is by burning fossil fuels. Emissions from all of agriculture (farming and crops) are about 18%.
It is clear what is destroying the environment. But you and other vegans keep banging on and on about how it is meat that's destroying the environment. Why? You're just playing into the hands of the oil companies. And not only you're not doing anything to protect the environment, but by distracting from the real source of climate change, you're making it even harder to convince people to change their nature-destroying habbit of burning fossil fuels.
So, I'm sorry, but at this point I consider every vegan who tells me meat destroys the environment to be dishonest, unless they are an actual environmental activist, rather than a vegan activist (or just someone who likes to argue vegan on the internet).
Why can't we fill our bellies with food that doesn't involve exploiting and killing other sentient animals?
If you have your own farm then ignore the above. It's a general question regarding the global food production. But not everyone can have their own farm - so that way of life is not scalable - if the majority of 9B people want to eat meat. It can only become sustainable, if it becomes extremely expensive and demand is curbed.
> And, no, you're never gonna get there with vegan nut paste Never say never - we humans are quite ingenious and finding ways to do things better.
> Highest- among all types of food we're currently producing. > I consider every vegan who tells me meat destroys the environment to be dishonest
It's not just GHG, but also:
- Greater water usage required for meat & dairy diet
- Biodiversity loss
- Deforestation
- Soil degradation
The IPCC recommends a shift towards a more plant-based diet to mitigate the climate crisis.
So are you calling hundreds of climate scientist dishonest? Here are plenty of resources to back up the claim that our current meat heavy diets are destructive and that a global shift to a plant-based diet is required to avert climate catastrophe. https://www.ipcc.ch/srccl/chapter/chapter-5/
Here are some quotes from experts in the field:
Dr Peter Carter, IPCC expert reviewer and Director of the Climate Emergency Institute stated: “The science is definite, global climate catastrophe cannot be averted without the elimination of meat and dairy in our diet, and that must happen fast.”
Courtney Vail, Campaign Director at Oceanic Preservation Society, added: “Changing our diets from a focus on animal-based to plant-based products is one of the most powerful things we can do to positively impact the world. Animal agriculture utilizes precious water resources, releases climate-altering greenhouse gases into the atmosphere, and reduces the planet’s ability to sequester carbon by destroying diverse ecosystems.”
Nah, you're moving the goal posts just to get a chance to say your little propaganda slogan. What I asked was: "I don't get why you have to eat fake food when you're vegan? ". You want to talk about that?
Because that's what I want to know. You don't want to eat meat? OK. You don't want to eat dairy? Then don't! But you want to eat fake cheese and fake meat? I mean, still, it's none of my business what you eat, knock yourself out. But, why? Fake is fake. It should be obvious why it's ... fake?
> So are you calling hundreds of climate scientist dishonest?
No, I'm calling you and other internet vegans dishonest, because you're using environmental issues as a cover to promote your vegan agenda.
Btw, "hundreds of climate scientists" don't say we should all go vegan to save the environment, like vegans like to pretend. The IPCC report you linked doesn't say anything like that. Environmental activists don't even say anything like that. What environmental scientists say is that a shift is needed towards a plant based diet. That is the kind of diet I eat: 2/3s plants and 1/3 animal foods (dairy, meat, seafood, etc).
But vegans like you are trying really hard to fudge the meaning of "plant-based" to make it synonymous with "vegan". And it's obvious why you're doing it: now all the environmental scientists who say a shift to a plant-based diet is needed are suddendly advocating for veganism!
That is the dishonesty I'm talking about. It's the same kind of dishonesty and the same kind of social engineering tactic as calling nut paste "cheese".
Well, your silly little games aren't paying off. Meat consumption keeps increasing. CAFOs keep getting built. Animals keep getting tortured. Scores of people sign up for Veganuary and go back to devouring burgers and sausages as soon as they have. Instagram is full of fashionable vegans and yet the vast majority of the population are not even vegetarian, not even flexitarian.
Dishonesty doesn't work. You can't have your cake and eat it. Either you tell people the truth, and nothing but the truth, and you hope they can do the right thing, or you keep lying and they keep ignoring you as extreme fanatical zealots.
It's just an alternative that doesn't involve killing animals. For example, beyond burgers or impossible burgers, helps meat eaters who want to reduce their environmental footprint, transition to a more plant-based diet.
Or say you want to have spaghetti bolognese - instead of using minced animal meat you use an plant-based alternative which is better. And most people don't notice a difference these days.
Or say chicken nuggets - the plant based alternative - pretty amazing and in blind tests most people couldn't tell.
Food science is pretty amazing these days.
So what's wrong with that?
I personally don't need those products, as I don't have a craving for meat or dairy. But I have them some times.
But others do crave it, but they don't want to support factory farms - so these plant-based alternative products help.
And what is vegan propaganda?
All veganism does is promote a life style that's free from cruelty as much as possible.
What is wrong with reducing cruelty and environmental destruction?
Because chicken nuggets are shit food and they don't even taste like chicken anyway. That's because they're made with pink slurry, bits of chicken mechanically separated from bones and chemically treated until they're transformed into a vile, noxious paste, the lowest-grade meat that is allowed for human consumption. That's why they're so cheap.
Here, this is how chicken nuggets are made:
https://youtu.be/kS3kmulj20M?t=621
And here's a little close up:
https://youtu.be/kS3kmulj20M?t=654
Aaw. Isn't food science amazing these days?
That's what your vegan nuggets replace. And they do a great job at it! Because they're equally shit.
Fake food replacing fake food for people who don't know what real food tastes like anymore. That is the dystopian reality we live in, but for vegans it's paradise.
> And what is vegan propaganda?
Oh, well, for example lying about the role of meat production in environmental destruction and trying to get people to believe it's farming that's destroying the environment rather than buring fossil fuels. That's propaganda, and it's dangerous propaganda from people who care not a shit about the environment and only care about meat meat meat.
Again, are you saying that Oxford Uni, IPCC, UN and many other credible organizations are lying?
> transformed into a vile, noxious paste, the lowest-grade meat that is allowed for human consumption.
Have you ever watched how actual chicken nuggets are produced? Have you ever watched what goes on in the meat & dairy industry? You can find out more here: http://www.nationearth.com/
In the meat industry you have disgusting pink slime. See https://www.livescience.com/33786-pink-slime.html
No, I'm saying they're not saying what you're saying they're saying.
> Have you ever watched how actual chicken nuggets are produced?
Yep. That's what I linked you to, above. How chicken nuggets are made. Read my earlier comment again:
> That's what your vegan nuggets replace. And they do a great job at it! Because they're equally shit.
Get it?
Oh, wait, you think because I don't want to eat your fake nuggets, that can only mean I want to eat the chicken ones? Black and white thinking, typical of fanatics with little understanding of the world beyond their gurus' teachings.
So the latest report from UN's IPCC says this:
“In addition to climate mitigation gains, a transition towards more plant-based consumption and reduced consumption of animal-based foods, particularly from ruminant animals, could reduce pressure on forests and land used for feed, support the preservation of biodiversity and planetary health, and contribute to preventing forms of malnutrition (i.e. undernutrition, micronutrient deficiency, and obesity) in developing countries. Other co-benefits include lowering the risk of cardiovascular disease, type 2 diabetes, and reducing mortality from diet-related non-communicable diseases.”
From: https://www.ipcc.ch/report/ar6/wg3/
An Oxford Uni study said this:
“Imbalanced diets, such as diets low in fruits and vegetables, and high in red and processed meat, are responsible for the greatest health burden globally and in most regions. At the same time the food system is also responsible for more than a quarter of all greenhouse gas emissions, and therefore a major driver of climate change.”
From: https://www.oxfordmartin.ox.ac.uk/news/201603-plant-based-di...
So the message is clear - shifting to a more plant-base diet is the single biggest way an individual can do to reduce their environmental impact.
> Yep. That's what I linked you to, above. How chicken nuggets are made.
I misunderstood. I thought you meant plant based chicken nuggets, which they weren't, hence why it was confusing.
I'm talking about Quorn nuggets (Mycoprotein) - look at how they are produced compared to how nuggets made from animal flesh are made. Looks way cleaner and not as disgusting.
And they are also healthier:
"Clinical trials on Quorn show that it can improve satiety and help people control cholesterol, blood sugar, and insulin levels."
From: https://nutritionfacts.org/video/the-health-effects-of-mycop...
So the point is - these products will help people who like chicken nuggets or burgers - transition to a more plant-based diet. Nobody is telling you to eat them.
You clearly think animals are just like potatoes and can be treated accordingly - like an object. Whether they have to endure pain or suffering doesn't matter to you - as long as you get your cheese and meat.
> Oh, wait, you think because I don't want to eat your fake nuggets, that can only mean I want to eat the chicken ones?
Who said anything about you having to eat plant based nuggets? This whole discussion wasn't about what you - cheese_goddess - personally eat. It was about how to feed the world sustainably and without effing up our biosphere. Our current system is not sustainable, because of animal factory farming. Getting protein from animals at this scale is illogical. And on top of that - it's cruel.
> Black and white thinking, typical of fanatics with little understanding of the world beyond their gurus' teachings.
What guru? And what teachings are you talking about?
I follow 2 principles:
1) Evidence based - I rely on our scientific community. The conclusion from those credible sources, i.e. IPCC, UN, PCRM, Oxford Uni, and many others, clearly state a move towards a plant-based diet is required to help avert a climate crisis and environmental damage.
2) Observational data... i.e. I've been to farms and more importantly watched enough videos of factory farms and slaughterhouses. It's cruel and you can see the pain & fear in the animals eyes. Do you really think killing a baby sheep just because we want to taste its soft and juicy flesh when it's not necessary for our survival is morally justified? Is it morally justified to kill another sentient being for taste pleasure?
Also, let's look up the definition of fanatic - according to a dictionary it means "a person exhibiting excessive enthusiasm and intense uncritical devotion".
The way you argued and the way you continue to ignore scientific evidence points to an 'intense uncritical devotion' and you choosing your current username - cheese_goddess - seems to suggest you match this line 'exhibiting excessive enthusiasm'.
Again - I encourage you to switch off your bias towards the false image you have of veganism (= reduced or no cruelty) and look at the scientific evidence instead.
A "more plant-based diet" is not a vegan diet and no environmental organisation is saying that everyone should go vegan to save the planet. But we've been through all this already.
> So the point is - these products will help people who like chicken nuggets or burgers - transition to a more plant-based diet.
And keep them for ever in the thrall of a food industry that wants to sell them shit and that doesn't give a flying fig about the environment, about animal rights, or about peoples' health or culture.
The food industry is responsible for the destruction of the environment and the torture of animals that you pretend to care so much about. It is responsible for the destruction of food cultures and for the destruction of farmers' livelihoods and way of life. And yet, you are very happy to cheer this same food industry on when it produces more industrial shit just because they don't have meat in them? Why?
Because you don't really care about the environment, about animal suffering, or about peoples' lives. That's why. You only care about one singular subject: meat. Meat meat meat meat meat. That's all you can think about.
> The way you argued and the way you continue to ignore scientific evidence points to an 'intense uncritical devotion' and you choosing your current username - cheese_goddess - seems to suggest you match this line 'exhibiting excessive enthusiasm'.
Pfffhahaha. That's just a laughable attempt to try and turn the tables on me. It doesn't work because I don't have any ideology, I'm not the one trying to tell people what to do, or not do, and I'm not the one trying to guilt trip people into accepting my ideology. And I'm not the one who is trying to twist science and activism to my own ends.
But you are. Because you're a fanatic, a zealot, a follower, a cult member. You don't like it? Get used to it.
Where did I say that? I would suggest you read more carefully and not just place words in other people's mouths.
I said a 'more plant-based diet', which means a reduction in meat consumption. And guess what - if more people would choose to follow this advice given by those organizations listed previously - it would mean fewer animals would have to be killed, which in turn means less cruelty towards animals overall and environmental destruction, i.e. a more vegan planet.
And read the official definition of veganism I posted earlier. It's not dogmatic, but rather promotes pragmatism. It says to avoid exploiting animals when practically possible, which means that it's unavoidable to eat meat when you need it to survive and there are no other foods available.
> The food industry is responsible for the destruction of the environment
Yes agreed. Our food system is not sustainable - that's why it needs to change.
> Because you don't really care about the environment, about animal suffering, or about peoples' lives.
If I don't care about animal suffering or the environment, why have I given up supporting the meat & dairy industry and stopped consuming their products? Doesn't make sense, does it?
> Pfffhahaha. That's just a laughable attempt to try and turn the tables on me.
How am I turning the tables? You called me a fanatic and being part of a cult. I merely explained, based on the official definition of fanatic - your behavior and comments show traits of being a fanatic, someone who isn't able to shift their opinion, even if there is ample evidence to show their opinion is flawed. Your opinion seems to be a) meat industry doesn't destroy the environment, b) animals don't suffer or feel pain.
> It doesn't work because I don't have any ideology
Definition of Ideology: "a manner or the content of thinking characteristic of an individual, group, or culture"
Based on your comments, your ideology seems to be that animals are here to serve us, it's OK to exploit and kill them regardless of consequences. It's OK for them to suffer so we can have our cheese & meat. Tradition trumps logic and critical thinking. Many people have that view about animals - so wouldn't you say you're part of that group - sharing the same content of thinking?
> You only care about one singular subject: meat. Meat meat meat meat meat.
What do you mean? I don't follow. I mentioned several subjects. So for your benefit, let me list them again:
- Protecting the Environment
- Animal rights - not taking their life against their will
- Not supporting an industry that makes factory farm workers suffer from PTSD
> But you are. Because you're a fanatic, a zealot, a follower, a cult member. You don't like it? Get used to it.
So a 'follower' of scientific evidence means I'm part of a cult and I'm a fanatic?
A fanatic usually doesn't change their opinion when presented with evidence. Show me the evidence that:
A) animal factory farming doesn't create environmental damage
B) animals are like plants - i.e. animals don't suffer and that's why it's OK to kill and exploit them.
I used to eat meat when I was a teenager - but then changed my opinion when I saw what damage my eating habits caused.
Sorry to say this, but the term fanatic applies more to your current behavior - as you ignore the evidence.
Please explain how my replies were spitefully unpleasant?
I'm trying to have a meaningful debate.
I presented you with ample evidence - even your own articles you posted and yet you've not answered most of my questions.
Instead you resort to snotty comments like this one.
Meat eaters were also advised to take vitamin D.
Lots of foods are already fortified with these vitamins.
I don't do anything extra other than eating a well balanced plant-based diet. Had my blood-work done recently (48 biomarkers) and it was all good. No deficiencies.
It is simple and definitely worth the effort - because the result will be not destroying our biosphere due to our meat & dairy addiction.