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Re:Would 1950s Living Standards Save Us? by thunderbird120 on Friday June 17, 2022 @10:16AM (#31778534)
People keep posting things like this and I legitimately do not understand how anyone can think that this is an actual option. No major politician is ever going to run on the platform of "I will intentionally make us poorer". Anyone who actually tries that will quickly find themselves out of office. Even in a dictatorship that's a great way to get yourself coup'd. These posts come across as unbelievably naive and out of touch. For example:

>Quite a few of us, not most but at least a sizeable portion, are willing to make these concessions.

I think this author either has a seriously different idea of what "sizeable portion" means or is vastly overestimating how many people support this kind of policy to begin with and would continue supporting this policy once they actually saw what it affected their standard of living. It's all well and good until people find out that they can no longer have lots of nice things which they previously took for granted.

>It means more people growing food on smaller plots.

No, that takes MORE energy, not less. If your concern is about too much energy usage then decreasing the efficiency of energy use by reducing economies of scale is insane.

Re:Would 1950s Living Standards Save Us? by dredmorbius on Friday June 17, 2022 @06:23PM (#31785188)
No major politician is ever going to run on the platform of "I will intentionally make us poorer".

Is the issue here that the premise is false (that a 1950s standard of living will be necessary), or that the tools for getting there from here are insufficient to the task (liberal democratic polity).

In the more general case, if you've got a problem, a necessary destination, and standard set of tools used to solve problems, if the tools don't suit the destination is the problem the tools or the destination?

I ask as it seems that often the problem seems to be the tools, but discussion hinges on the destination. This strikes me as odd.

I'll note that the article isn't even premised on how we get to a 1950s standard of living, but if that's a viable goal or target. Departing immediately from that question to the viability of getting to it, before considering the target's sufficiency or suitability, seems ... premature.

Re:Would 1950s Living Standards Save Us? by candiodari on Saturday June 18, 2022 @08:00PM (#31794898)
I think there's even a problem of expectations. What would it accomplish if we did that? Because there wouldn't be a reduction of climate forcing if we did this, it would be a (slower) increase. It wouldn't cool the planet, it would merely slow the increase.

Since we definitely want that to happen, we need other options than the options currently discussed.

If I look at this I always come back to the same point: humanity will need to take control of earth's climate. And while limiting CO2 (and, more importantly, methane) emissions will be a component of that, it's not going to be the only one or even the most important.

Re:Would 1950s Living Standards Save Us? by defterGoose on Friday June 17, 2022 @02:23PM (#31782271)
Factory farming is incredibly petroleum intensive. Subsistence farming is much less impactful if your efficiency metric is "number of tomatoes per ton of CO2 emitted".
Re:Would 1950s Living Standards Save Us? by marssaxman on Friday June 17, 2022 @02:59PM (#31782744)
> People keep posting things like this and I legitimately do not understand how anyone can think that this is an actual option.

When the alternative appears to be the collapse of civilization and the possible extinction of humanity, how can it NOT be an option?

Re:Would 1950s Living Standards Save Us? by mdp2021 on Friday June 17, 2022 @03:09PM (#31782890)
> how can it not be an option

Because there is no central government, no central decisor. It's a game theory context of actors spread all over.

Re:Would 1950s Living Standards Save Us? by fulafel on Saturday June 18, 2022 @08:30AM (#31789247)
We have lots of experience in the cat herding of international collective action. Often the results aren't perfect but still good enough. Nuclear nonprofileration, UN security council resolutions, enacting US/western industry preferred trade policies everywhere (eg IPR legislation), COVID response, water rights... As long as you have a good majority the rest of the countries can be mostly carrot-and-sticked to join the ranks.
Re:Would 1950s Living Standards Save Us? by marssaxman on Friday June 17, 2022 @04:23PM (#31783786)
What is your position, then - simply fatalism? You don't seem to be disagreeing with the author's premises, or his conclusions.

Even if the situation does turn out to be hopeless, that point of view does not seem to offer anything useful. Better to try and fail, at least!

Re:Would 1950s Living Standards Save Us? by AnimalMuppet on Friday June 17, 2022 @07:46PM (#31785928)
"Your solution doesn't work" != "I have a solution that works". I don't have to have a solution that works to be able to point out that your solution doesn't work.

Also, "I don't know of a solution that works" != fatalism.

If the problem is important enough to solve, it's important enough to not waste time trying a solution that won't work.

Re:Would 1950s Living Standards Save Us? by netsharc on Friday June 17, 2022 @05:07PM (#31784389)
I'm not the above commenter, but I subscribe to the fatalism... even with a deadly disease that could (for a small sub-percent of "could") kill you within 2 weeks, people got into denial as one of the excuses why they shouldn't follow what society wanted them to do.
Re:Would 1950s Living Standards Save Us? by mdp2021 on Saturday June 18, 2022 @08:21AM (#31789193)
> Better to try

Who is supposed to «try», and what?

The issue can only be resolved (in terms of political intervention) by a sound, sensible plan acceptable by enough parts.

You want to fix the problem, you have to facilitate that somebody formulates a proposal that enough governments will be available to subscribe to.

No, the fear of annihilation is factually not enough to convince a policymaker - first, guts to head, because of ethology, and second, because of game theory. "Ethology" being a well-dressed encapsulation for "that's how it is - see and evaluate", and "game theory" implying that for a player not to grab the loot a number of reassurances must be in place.

Re:Would 1950s Living Standards Save Us? by sentirism on Friday June 17, 2022 @11:01AM (#31779214)
How this would also work in the real world is that you need to go back to a 1950s living standard to save the planet.

Me? My current living standard is essential to saving the planet so it would be a mistake for me to join you.

Re:Would 1950s Living Standards Save Us? by baggy_trough on Friday June 17, 2022 @01:57PM (#31781895)
That is not the only option. For example, we could expand nuclear power greatly, akin to France, to make electricity cheaper.
Re:Would 1950s Living Standards Save Us? by dTal on Friday June 17, 2022 @03:44PM (#31783308)
I'd love to know how your current living standard is essential to saving the planet.
Re:Would 1950s Living Standards Save Us? by AnimalMuppet on Friday June 17, 2022 @06:58PM (#31785540)
I believe that was sarcasm. The point is that, in the real world, big shots will continue to jet off to Davos, and expect the rest of us to adopt a 1950s lifestyle.

And, given how we saw quarantines and masking play out, I suspect sentirism is right.