News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Coinbase Announces 18% Layoffs by hftthrowaway22 on Tuesday June 14, 2022 @08:27AM (#31738249)
It’s been pretty interesting watching YC backed Coinbase get absolutely crushed by FTX, which has a higher % of crypto trading volume despite having less than 10% of the headcount.

Crypto is a zero sum game, and the old Paul Graham essays and other tired VC dogmas really only work in positive sum games. FTX was founded by traders which is valuable when the ultimate purpose of the crypto industry is to separate uninformed people from their money.

Re:Coinbase Announces 18% Layoffs by greatpostman on Tuesday June 14, 2022 @08:32AM (#31738320)
Yeah. FTX people clearly know a lot more about market making and how exchanges work. Makes coinbase look like amateurs. Coinbase hired their CPO with a 650 million dollar pay package. They should have spent that money on 2 - 5 million a year hft programmers and traders
Re:Coinbase Announces 18% Layoffs by xhrpost on Tuesday June 14, 2022 @08:55AM (#31738661)
Re:Coinbase Announces 18% Layoffs by ethanbond on Tuesday June 14, 2022 @08:36AM (#31738376)
What do you make of Sam Bankman-Fried describing his business as a literal Ponzi scheme on Odd Lots podcast?

The commentary isn’t necessary to see the insanity but here’s fastest way to get to the relevant content: https://youtu.be/C6nAxiym9oc

Edit: To clarify, though not sure how much a mitigation this is, yes SBF is describing much of the underlying activity he takes commission on as a Ponzi scheme. Sure, he’s not operating the Ponzi itself, just keeping it operational and profiting from its continued operation. Mea culpa.

Re:Coinbase Announces 18% Layoffs by greatpostman on Tuesday June 14, 2022 @08:39AM (#31738430)
I listened to that, he even predicted the Luna crash in that interview. When that guy talks, it’s very clear he understands markets. Very different approach to Bryan Armstrong, who’s more of a Bitcoin “believer”. I think the blatant description of a ponzi scheme was a rare window into an insiders thoughts.
Re:Coinbase Announces 18% Layoffs by bko on Tuesday June 14, 2022 @08:55AM (#31738663)
What FTX does is introduce financial products that could potentially put downward pressure on a lot of these scam coins. To be fair, he also introduces products that allow people to play around w/ crazy amount of leverage, but it could theoretically be done without as much counterparty risk and interconnections that caused the 2008 financial crisis.
Re:Coinbase Announces 18% Layoffs by bushbaba on Tuesday June 14, 2022 @09:41AM (#31739323)
lots of exchanges provide crazy amounts of leverage. Kucoin lets you have a margin loan that's 10x your capital. I'm not sure this is unique to FTX.

The exchange itself doesn't need 1000s of people. Coinbase went on a hiring spree in 2021, but it didn't seem to have a clear strategy for all that headcount.

Re:Coinbase Announces 18% Layoffs by graeme on Tuesday June 14, 2022 @08:48AM (#31738576)
He described defi yields as a literal ponzi. Sam Bankman Fried’s business is charging commissions to people in the ponzi and trading against them and he does a good job of that.

As an aside, for those who like names as destiny, SBF’s is epic

I.e. Bernie Madoff made off with their money

Nuke Goldstein of Celsius nuked depositors money

You get:

Scam-Bankman Fried

Or also Sam Bank-Man Fried (if they go bust)

This sort of naming thing is more common than you’d think in frauds anyway and if you are placing your money with someone who could chuckle to themselves “hehe I made-off with their money” it is a material risk

Re:Coinbase Announces 18% Layoffs by lordgrenville on Tuesday June 14, 2022 @09:43AM (#31739383)
Re:Coinbase Announces 18% Layoffs by bko on Tuesday June 14, 2022 @08:57AM (#31738705)
I want an exchange to be neutral. I don't want them to pick and choose the products I'm allowed to trade. Outright fraud should be avoided, but if someone wants to buy a shitcoin, they should be allowed to do so.
Re:Coinbase Announces 18% Layoffs by Melting_Harps on Tuesday June 14, 2022 @09:06AM (#31738823)
> I want an exchange to be neutral. I don't want them to pick and choose the products I'm allowed to trade. Outright fraud should be avoided, but if someone wants to buy a shitcoin, they should be allowed to do so.

BTC-e was the closest thing to that, and the FBI shut them down outside of their jurisdiction (RU).

To this day they were the only exchange trying to make people whole after the seizure, everyone else just exit scammed or has had their funds tied up in an asset seizure (MT gox via the Japanese Government).

Re:Coinbase Announces 18% Layoffs by carnitine on Tuesday June 14, 2022 @08:55AM (#31738666)
He’s not describing his business at all, but yield farming, which is performed using decentralised applications.
Re:Coinbase Announces 18% Layoffs by wickoff on Tuesday June 14, 2022 @09:59AM (#31739609)
He is pointing out that it is in fact a ponzi and explaining the mechanism. There are no regulations against letting people trade this type of ponzi so his company isn't doing anything illegal. I think the problem here is that people outside crypto take it more seriously than insiders.
Re:Coinbase Announces 18% Layoffs by ethanbond on Tuesday June 14, 2022 @10:10AM (#31739771)
I think people outside of crypto take it seriously because it’s getting to the scale where it will start negatively impacting non-participants or unknowing participants.
Re:Coinbase Announces 18% Layoffs by rvz on Tuesday June 14, 2022 @08:51AM (#31738604)
> What do you make of Sam Bankman-Fried describing his business as a literal Ponzi scheme

Strawman. He described DeFi yield farming as a ponzi scheme. [0] Not his own business.

Nice try though and thanks for playing.

[0] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-04-25/sam-bankm...

Re:Coinbase Announces 18% Layoffs by ethanbond on Tuesday June 14, 2022 @10:07AM (#31739727)
No need for the snark, thank you for the clarification though!
Re:Coinbase Announces 18% Layoffs by ikt on Tuesday June 14, 2022 @08:56AM (#31738671)
HN is about as informed on crypto as some random off the street I've found.

I actually wouldn't mind if mods here removed non-technical crypto discussions.

Re:Coinbase Announces 18% Layoffs by puranjay on Tuesday June 14, 2022 @09:39AM (#31739302)
yeah SBF doesn't believe in crypto. He might pay some lip service but he doesn't hold any position extensively.
Re:Coinbase Announces 18% Layoffs by Tarrosion on Tuesday June 14, 2022 @08:53AM (#31738639)
With the caveat that I'm approximately as crypto-skeptical as they come, (a) the interview snippet in that video sounds like SBF describing how a hypothetical could work, not his actual business - though it's hard to tell with all the interruptions from the host yelling "Ponzi!"; (b) the interview snippet in the video doesn't even obviously sound like a Ponzi scheme, but more like an exploration of collective actions and collective beliefs, which is...not unrelated to how regular money works?
Re:Coinbase Announces 18% Layoffs by dvt on Tuesday June 14, 2022 @10:10AM (#31739772)
> his business as a literal Ponzi scheme

Imagine being this uninformed and wanting to seriously have a conversation about crypto and the underlying fundamentals. We get it, you hate crypto. Why even bother at this point?

Re:Coinbase Announces 18% Layoffs by paulgb on Tuesday June 14, 2022 @10:34AM (#31740150)
Matt Levine is pretty informed IMHO, and he interpreted SBF's explanation of yield farming as describing a Ponzi scheme.

> I think of myself as like a fairly cynical person. And that was so much more cynical than how I would've described farming. You're just like, well, I'm in the Ponzi business and it's pretty good.

Re:Coinbase Announces 18% Layoffs by dvt on Tuesday June 14, 2022 @05:57PM (#31746564)
Yes, yield farming is a ponzi (though technically it's the greater fool theory). SBF's company (FTX) is certainly not a ponzi.
Re:Coinbase Announces 18% Layoffs by FabHK on Tuesday June 14, 2022 @09:17AM (#31738992)
FTX's CEO SBF also doesn't believe in crypto, as far as I can say, but just sees it as a means to make some money for philanthropy (effective altruism). That might make him less prone to succumb to the hype and over-invest.
Re:Coinbase Announces 18% Layoffs by joezydeco on Tuesday June 14, 2022 @08:46AM (#31738538)
Coinbase have always been amateurs. Were you here 9 years ago when they melted down the first time? That was fun. That was also when I decided the fix was in and I got out of crypto.
Re:Coinbase Announces 18% Layoffs by PheonixPharts on Tuesday June 14, 2022 @09:37AM (#31739261)
<insert startup name> has always been amateurs.

In this era of cheap money it's been maddening to see how absurdly incompetent companies can be and still push forward with no consequences.

I've seen teams of people working on credit scoring with no understanding of expected default. They literally just throw data at XGBoost, and couldn't understand why they couldn't find a way to profit off a group of people with a 30% default rate when the upper bound of interest they could charge was 25%.

This pattern is repeated all over startup land (I've also never met a company that knew how to model churn correctly, this is an essential business metric and yet again people throw XGBoost at it), but cheap money means that doing anything is rewarded with more money so every idea seems like a good one.

Crypto companies will be the first to go, but hard times are coming for anyone working at a company that doesn't have a profit.

Re:Coinbase Announces 18% Layoffs by danuker on Tuesday June 14, 2022 @08:44AM (#31738512)
There is also a lot less regulation in the Bahamas.
Re:Coinbase Announces 18% Layoffs by alephnan on Tuesday June 14, 2022 @09:07AM (#31738837)
I think for a while they were hiring Node.js developers to develop these trading systems
Re:Coinbase Announces 18% Layoffs by bko on Tuesday June 14, 2022 @08:53AM (#31738630)
I agree and am in general a big fan of FTX and the guys that work there. The CEO, Sam Bankman-Fried one of these HFT guys from Jane Street and his net worth shot up from 0 to $24 billion in just a few years. He kept things super lean and focused. But in the last few months it looks like he's hired a PR team and is all over the place: podcasts, obviously planted news stories, etc. He even hired a head of fashion and luxury partnerships and even has an ad out in Vogue.

I get that he may be looking forward to spending his wealth, but I feel if he doesn't keep focused his company will decay and he'll get sucked up into celebrity BS.

https://markets.businessinsider.com/news/currencies/ftx-bloc...

Re:Coinbase Announces 18% Layoffs by xiphias2 on Tuesday June 14, 2022 @09:31AM (#31739171)
Why is being a celebrity BS? After a few tens of millions (or maybe $100M) dollars money doesn't matter at all, it's all about status, and money is just a tool to achieve it.
Re:Coinbase Announces 18% Layoffs by bko on Tuesday June 14, 2022 @09:51AM (#31739516)
Sure, for some people. But I was hoping the Sam Bankman-Fried had higher aspirations like building a product and team he could be proud of. I don't think celebrity status is good for you. It's very unnatural to be surrounded by yes men and people that just want to use for your money or status.
Re:Coinbase Announces 18% Layoffs by JumpCrisscross on Tuesday June 14, 2022 @11:06AM (#31740579)
> was hoping the Sam Bankman-Fried had higher aspirations like building a product and team he could be proud of

This is Armstrong. It’s why he’s failing. Bankman-Fried recognises crypto for what it is. It’s not somewhere to do things to be proud of. It’s a place to make money while it lasts.

Re:Coinbase Announces 18% Layoffs by adamsmith143 on Tuesday June 14, 2022 @10:33AM (#31740121)
>I get that he may be looking forward to spending his wealth

On Philanthropy maybe. He's pretty dedicated to the EA movement and has explicitly said he intends to give everything away.

Re:Coinbase Announces 18% Layoffs by puranjay on Tuesday June 14, 2022 @09:39AM (#31739290)
Alameda is the single scariest entity in crypto. They're absolutely brutal. I exit every trade once it becomes apparent that Alameda is in.

If I was a VC firm, however, I would back anything SBF was doing. He's a genius when it comes to making money.

Re:Coinbase Announces 18% Layoffs by vamsipk on Tuesday June 14, 2022 @10:10PM (#31748357)
Not sure I understand your comment. If they are so good why would you exit the trade?
Re:Coinbase Announces 18% Layoffs by shippintoboston on Tuesday June 14, 2022 @09:44AM (#31739388)
Sorry, what does SBF stand for?
Re:Coinbase Announces 18% Layoffs by arthurcolle on Tuesday June 14, 2022 @10:18AM (#31739899)
Sam Bankman-Fried, guy who started FTX and Alameda Research
Re:Coinbase Announces 18% Layoffs by puranjay on Tuesday June 14, 2022 @10:19AM (#31739904)
Sam Bankman-Fried - the founder of Alameda
Re:Coinbase Announces 18% Layoffs by grey-area on Tuesday June 14, 2022 @08:34AM (#31738342)
FTX is also going to feel a lot of pain when the crypto market crash completes. None of these companies are IMO sustainable without mass interest in cryptocurrencies, which is rapidly fading as people realise they're not going to get rich quick.
Re:Coinbase Announces 18% Layoffs by kolbe on Tuesday June 14, 2022 @11:15AM (#31740698)
This is the case for most market makers in whatever markets they're in. A crash usually produces a huge trading windfall, and then the subsequent "recession" leaves people with little money to invest/gamble with. FTX's traders are veterans of the industry, and they understand the need to be lean when order flow is light, and the need to make as much as possible when it's hot. Coinbase just watched the best two years of trading pass in front of their eyes, and failed to monetize it even to 10% of its potential. If they're lucky, they will get another opportunity to do things right in 5 years. But the trading graveyard is filled with people/companies like Coinbase who did really well for a year because they lucked into a good position, but who should have done 10x better. But then the real players see the opportunity, and run the Coinbases of the world off.
Re:Coinbase Announces 18% Layoffs by codebolt on Tuesday June 14, 2022 @08:41AM (#31738464)
FTX is in deep with Tether. I expect they'll pull some tricks out of their collective hats to avoid a complete collapse.
Re:Coinbase Announces 18% Layoffs by quickthrower2 on Tuesday June 14, 2022 @09:31AM (#31739170)
Pulling tricks needs a new sucker pipeline. But sucker pipelines will dry up as old suckers get burned and money is generally drying up due to interest rates.
Re:Coinbase Announces 18% Layoffs by codebolt on Tuesday June 14, 2022 @11:04PM (#31748662)
Don't need new suckers if you're running the largest money counterfeiting operation in human history.
Re:Coinbase Announces 18% Layoffs by janmo on Tuesday June 14, 2022 @08:32AM (#31738326)
FTX's success is a bit questionable. They are the biggest buyer of USDT/Tether and shady things are probably going on there.
Re:Coinbase Announces 18% Layoffs by gruez on Tuesday June 14, 2022 @08:42AM (#31738469)
Does that say much? They're the biggest buyer because USDT is the biggest stablecoin.
Re:Coinbase Announces 18% Layoffs by rglullis on Tuesday June 14, 2022 @09:04AM (#31738795)
Isn't that reversing the logic? If FTX bought more USDC than USDT, the scales would've changed.

Also, the fact that FTX has never called out Tether or at least pushed for a proper audit is indicative that they are more likely to be in the scam than merely buying from them because they believe to be solid.

Re:Coinbase Announces 18% Layoffs by graeme on Tuesday June 14, 2022 @08:51AM (#31738609)
Your logic is backwards. They don’t buy more Tether than other stables. (Well they do but that wasn’t the point)

The point is they are Tether’s largest customer. They buy more Tether than anyone else.

Re:Coinbase Announces 18% Layoffs by gruez on Tuesday June 14, 2022 @09:04AM (#31738794)
I still don't see what the problem is. Their customers want USDT. They buy USDT so their customers can access it. Looking around on their site, it looks like they support USD alongside USDT, so it's not like they're strongarming their customers into using USDT. Calling that shady is like calling a stock broker shady because they're the largest buyers of [insert shady/overhyped company here].
Re:Coinbase Announces 18% Layoffs by colinmhayes on Tuesday June 14, 2022 @10:41AM (#31740234)
They are tethers largest customer because they're the largest exchange and tether is the largest stablecoin. Stablecoins in general were created because offshore exchanges had trouble dealing with traditional banks since the whole point of being offshore is not following US regulations.
Re:Coinbase Announces 18% Layoffs by symlinkk on Tuesday June 14, 2022 @08:36AM (#31738382)
I have never heard of FTX until reading your comment just now. Is it really crushing Coinbase?
Re:Coinbase Announces 18% Layoffs by vdddv on Tuesday June 14, 2022 @08:49AM (#31738584)
crushing might be a bit too far, but they are certainly ahead of Coinbase in volume with lower opex https://coinmarketcap.com/rankings/exchanges/
Re:Coinbase Announces 18% Layoffs by avinassh on Tuesday June 14, 2022 @09:13AM (#31738941)
I had no idea that Binance is so far ahead. Why do most people use it? Some trust factor?
Re:Coinbase Announces 18% Layoffs by gnrlst on Tuesday June 14, 2022 @09:21AM (#31739043)
It has the most pairs available, historically aggressive referral scheme, BNB and BSC also helped a lot. not sure about the trust factor
Re:Coinbase Announces 18% Layoffs by pcthrowaway on Tuesday June 14, 2022 @01:34PM (#31742966)
It also has very low trading fees (~0.1% per trade)
Re:Coinbase Announces 18% Layoffs by rvz on Tuesday June 14, 2022 @08:46AM (#31738541)
Those who have too much head count and hire aggressively, also fire aggressively.

I'm guessing FTX kept their head count low, so not impacted as hard as Coinbase is.

Re:Coinbase Announces 18% Layoffs by trompetenaccoun on Tuesday June 14, 2022 @08:50AM (#31738595)
Crushing in terms of their promotion army heavily shilling it on social media - yes. In terms of users no.
Re:Coinbase Announces 18% Layoffs by avinassh on Tuesday June 14, 2022 @09:11AM (#31738889)
Same here until I saw the Larry David's commercial - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BH5-rSxilxo
Re:Coinbase Announces 18% Layoffs by elif on Tuesday June 14, 2022 @09:27AM (#31739106)
If Coinbase allowed you to pay in fake dollars I'm sure they would get more volume too.
Re:Coinbase Announces 18% Layoffs by golergka on Tuesday June 14, 2022 @08:38AM (#31738419)
> Crypto is a zero sum game

How come? The same network effects that work for social networks work here, as more people and businesses use crypto, it's value proposition raises quadratically.

Re:Coinbase Announces 18% Layoffs by Nextgrid on Tuesday June 14, 2022 @08:51AM (#31738615)
Nobody's using crypto for its intended purpose - its value proposition when it comes to payments is just as dubious as it ever was. The vast majority of the attention for crypto has been for its speculative aspect.
Re:Coinbase Announces 18% Layoffs by cdiddy2 on Tuesday June 14, 2022 @09:50AM (#31739489)
There are tons of people using it for its apolitical and censorship resistant nature. Afghanistan/Ukraine/Lebanon/Argentina/Venezuela/Nigeria/Turkey/Belarus/Mexico to name a few countries where it is very relevant and useful

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-60715707

https://www.financialinclusion.tech/

Re:Coinbase Announces 18% Layoffs by lokar on Tuesday June 14, 2022 @10:21AM (#31739943)
What percentage range (total value, transactions, etc) would you say counts as "tons"?
Re:Coinbase Announces 18% Layoffs by cdiddy2 on Tuesday June 14, 2022 @12:39PM (#31742010)
Its really hard to get a good gauge on that. There is a lot of data but its all very piecemeal and hard to aggregate. Could spend a week trying to get an idea of it and still not be sure. Here is my couple minute version though.

For 2020 in Mexico alone from Bitso: "Frida Vargas, head of business sevelopment at Bitso, told CoinDesk the company processed about $1.2 billion in remittances between the U.S. to Mexico in 2020. “Our main users are remittance companies, who use crypto technology to improve and make the remittance sending and collecting process easier,” she said."[1]

In Argentina: "Cryptocurrency penetration was at 12% in Argentina, vs. 29% credit card penetration, indicating impressive crypto uptake in that country"[2]

"There is high interest in receiving crypto remittances in various LatAm markets, such as Peru (33%), Argentina (19%), Mexico (15%), and Brazil (8%)"[2]

There is also chainalysis[3] data for small transfers in LatAm showing 1.5M monthly transfers at a total value of 300M monthly volume. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FPCfq-LWUAEctzT?format=jpg&name=...

[1] https://www.yahoo.com/video/mexican-remittances-continent-la... [2] https://americasmi.com/pdfs_landings/220211_The_cryptocurren... [3] Page 42: https://go.chainalysis.com/rs/503-FAP-074/images/Geography-o...

Re:Coinbase Announces 18% Layoffs by spookthesunset on Tuesday June 14, 2022 @02:55PM (#31744233)
I'd guess it is around 1%? Maybe less? Certainly not more than 5%
Re:Coinbase Announces 18% Layoffs by bobkazamakis on Tuesday June 14, 2022 @01:06PM (#31742506)
>There are tons of people using it for its apolitical and censorship resistant nature.

bahahaha. the story never changes but bitcoin is always the proletariat fighting against the powers that be. Don't worry, El Salvador is accepting it as legal tender!

Re:Coinbase Announces 18% Layoffs by smt88 on Tuesday June 14, 2022 @09:10AM (#31738885)
Also if the "purpose" of something is payments and that thing is an investment for you, then you're betting on a deflationary future which means that thing will be less useful as a payment.
Re:Coinbase Announces 18% Layoffs by saint_angels on Tuesday June 14, 2022 @09:21AM (#31739045)
I'm receiving part of my salary in USDT, and find it valuable. Traditional banking system doesn't work well for everyone.
Re:Coinbase Announces 18% Layoffs by renonce on Tuesday June 14, 2022 @11:17AM (#31740745)
That is the case with stablecoins. Stablecoins are the most boring thing in crypto and few people really use it for payments.
Re:Coinbase Announces 18% Layoffs by Cederfjard on Tuesday June 14, 2022 @01:08PM (#31742531)
What do you use the USDT for? Any type of spending?
Re:Coinbase Announces 18% Layoffs by saint_angels on Tuesday June 14, 2022 @02:52PM (#31744186)
I use it to receive money from another country and exchange for USD in a local exchange point. It may sound like a boring case, but if you find yourself in a foreign country without working bank cards, it might save your ass
Re:Coinbase Announces 18% Layoffs by hansonkd13 on Tuesday June 14, 2022 @08:53AM (#31738634)
The main value proposition is to sell to the next person for more than you paid. Everything else about banking the unbanked or other vague goals about being better than fiat are to convince the next bag holder.
Re:Coinbase Announces 18% Layoffs by danuker on Tuesday June 14, 2022 @08:57AM (#31738690)
> The main value proposition is to sell to the next person for more than you paid.

I agree. But I genuinely believe "bagholders" will be better off compared to saving in their own national currency - provided they manage their risk correctly.

This is because national currencies keep inflating, so even a decreasing demand might maintain the same price, given the supply inflation difference.

Since the pandemic, BTC has acted like the S&P500 with 4x leverage, but no margin calls (loss limited to what you invested).

Re:Coinbase Announces 18% Layoffs by cyphar on Tuesday June 14, 2022 @09:30AM (#31739156)
Re:Coinbase Announces 18% Layoffs by danuker on Tuesday June 14, 2022 @11:02AM (#31740527)
This has held for over a century in the case of gold, since the USD kept readjusting its peg and eventually suspending convertibility.

https://www.macrotrends.net/1333/historical-gold-prices-100-...

Re:Coinbase Announces 18% Layoffs by cyphar on Tuesday June 14, 2022 @05:45PM (#31746466)
So what you're saying with that example is that even with the backing of many governments that have a vested interest in doing anything to stop the bubble from bursting (something Bitcoin doesn't have), the greater fool theory ultimately was correct in that eventually the bubble burst? (I don't agree that the USD-Gold peg was an example of greater fool theory, just an example of how pegging your currency to gold as a sovereign government with a central bank is not a reasonable way of doing monetary policy. The gold standard is an outlier in the human history of monetary policy, the only reason it's so notable to us today is because it was in use during the development of modern economics.)

Cryptocurrencies do not produce anything and any actual transactions done using them (as opposed to speculative trading) are a rounding error even after more than a decade. There is no mechanism for them to be anything other than a complicated greater fool scam because ultimately the only way you can make money from them is if you can sell them to someone else for more money than you bought them for -- which is what a greater fool scam is.

Re:Coinbase Announces 18% Layoffs by minsc_and_boo on Tuesday June 14, 2022 @11:11AM (#31740646)
USD dropped the gold standard almost a century ago. How is your comment relevant to the greater fool theory and crypto today?
Re:Coinbase Announces 18% Layoffs by automatic6131 on Tuesday June 14, 2022 @10:05AM (#31739686)
>This is because national currencies keep inflating Now consider the (dominating) 2nd order effect that the price of the "bag" was inflated by leverage and speculation.

Definitely worse than most national currencies outside of select countries.

Re:Coinbase Announces 18% Layoffs by danuker on Tuesday June 14, 2022 @11:07AM (#31740590)
Speculation is healthy in a market. For example, futures contracts let farmers hedge themselves against bad weather.

But I think leverage is insane with the volatility of the cryptocurrency market.

Re:Coinbase Announces 18% Layoffs by SantalBlush on Tuesday June 14, 2022 @11:33AM (#31741003)
The inflation rate in bitcoin over the last 6 months has eclipsed the inflation of $USD. Anyone who got paid in $BTC these past few months lost more than 50% of their earnings. Nobody is interested in that.
Re:Coinbase Announces 18% Layoffs by rchaud on Tuesday June 14, 2022 @09:22AM (#31739051)
The added value you're referring to accrues almost entirely to the exchanges.

People and businesses are not buying crypto to spend on things. They are buying it to trade it back and forth. No value is being created except for the fees exchanges can charge for processing transactions, which is a markup on the fees already charged by miners.

A large percentage of Americans were onboarded to investing via brokerages in the 70s-00s. Did that make day trading any less zero-sum than before?

Re:Coinbase Announces 18% Layoffs by danuker on Tuesday June 14, 2022 @08:52AM (#31738622)
I don't use it for payments due to regulatory headaches. But the supply-side economics is not to ignore.

It is advantageous to Bitcoin. US M2 money supply grew 8.04% in the past year [0], while Bitcoin's grew ~1.75% [1].

Yes, demand has its 80% ups and downs, but each crash was to a level higher than the previous.

[0] - https://ycharts.com/indicators/us_m2_money_supply_yoy

[1] - https://charts.woobull.com/bitcoin-inflation/

Re:Coinbase Announces 18% Layoffs by thaway2839 on Tuesday June 14, 2022 @10:24AM (#31739977)
And that makes it a horrible currency. It makes it highly deflationary which absolutely stunts the working of an economy because no one wants to spend anymore.

Good currencies are not stores of value. They are means of exchange. And crypto is a horrible means of exchange.

It may have some use as a store of value (i.e. digital gold), but it's not clear to me why I would store my value in digital gold, which will require people to altruistically spend money on energy after 2040 or so when no more Bitcoins are generated for miners (in practice much earlier as each mined BTC gets increasingly expensive), to maintain the blockchain, as opposed to investing in real gold, which can literally sit under my mattress and not require a network of planet burning computers for it to not vanish.

Re:Coinbase Announces 18% Layoffs by engineeringwoke on Tuesday June 14, 2022 @11:52AM (#31741245)
It's funny that you believe the nation states' excuses for de-basing their currency. People just use fiat because it is dominant and has a legal system attached. They de-base because they can.

The fact that they thought M2 and its equivalents across the world could rise faster than inflation in perpetuity is just silly in retrospect. They're the same thing in the long run. It was used to get around the lack of ability to enact fiscal policy and to make old people rich, and you bought it, hook line and sinker.

Re:Coinbase Announces 18% Layoffs by danuker on Tuesday June 14, 2022 @04:31PM (#31745638)
> because no one wants to spend anymore

Computing prices have been going down in the past half-century. Yet it's full of computers around us now. And the biggest companies are computing-related. I wonder why.

Re:Coinbase Announces 18% Layoffs by FabHK on Tuesday June 14, 2022 @08:56AM (#31738675)
Gains from trading are zero sum - whatever anyone takes out (when selling), someone must put in (by buying). More specifically, it is a negative sum game, since exchanges and miners want their cut.

So, the assertion that crypto as a whole is zero sum hinges on the assumption that for the vast majority of people, the utility of crypto comes from capital gains (buying and selling for a higher price), rather than, say, the utility of buying drugs or paying off ransomware.

Re:Coinbase Announces 18% Layoffs by peyton on Tuesday June 14, 2022 @09:42AM (#31739347)
No. If I buy Monero on an exchange, I pay only the marginal buyer’s price. The ability to transact privately may, however, be worth much more to me than that price.
Re:Coinbase Announces 18% Layoffs by minsc_and_boo on Tuesday June 14, 2022 @11:18AM (#31740756)
Monero and its ability to transact privately is only valuable if you're participating in criminal activity, which is not the vast majority of people.

You may say that, no, hypothetically you are a privacy-enthusiast and like monero as a hobby money, but in reality most rational actors on Monero as evading taxes and using DNMs.

(I would also argue that Monero is the only crypto that is more currency than any other crypto today bc of this, but it's not a selling point IMO)

Re:Coinbase Announces 18% Layoffs by lawn on Tuesday June 14, 2022 @12:04PM (#31741402)
It absolutely is not only for criminals.

A simple example: you go to a store and buy something with BTC. All good so far.

But the store owner can see on the public blockchain that the wallet you paid with contains a lot of Bitcoin, and that you were in fact a crypto multi-millionaire. And he and his buddies will now target you in a nightly visit where they'll torture you and your family until you give them your coins.

Or another example: you're the business owner but the customer pays with tainted bitcoins, coming from child trafficking. Now your Coinbase account will be frozen if you send the coins there, or you'll be unable to use them in other ways because they're tainted.

The ability to transact privately is for your personal safety and to be able to transact with other people without being branded a terrorist or pedophile and have to deal with those false accusations.

Re:Coinbase Announces 18% Layoffs by minsc_and_boo on Tuesday June 14, 2022 @01:06PM (#31742507)
>You may say that, no, hypothetically you are a privacy-enthusiast and like monero as a hobby money, but in reality most rational actors on Monero as evading taxes and using DNMs.

Again, your hypotheticals diverge from the reality.

Re:Coinbase Announces 18% Layoffs by wahnfrieden on Tuesday June 14, 2022 @08:45AM (#31738529)
bc there’s not much current use beyond speculative trading on future utility
Re:Coinbase Announces 18% Layoffs by garethrowlands on Tuesday June 14, 2022 @09:00AM (#31738740)
speculative trading on future price, not utility
Re:Coinbase Announces 18% Layoffs by wahnfrieden on Tuesday June 14, 2022 @11:09AM (#31740624)
also correct but not what I’m saying, thanks for the input