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Re:Twitter plans to comply with Musk’s demands for data by roamerz on Thursday June 09, 2022 @04:16PM (#31686217)
Since when is providing pertinent information to someone performing pre purchase due diligence calling their bluff?
Re:Twitter plans to comply with Musk’s demands for data by ceejayoz on Thursday June 09, 2022 @04:17PM (#31686232)
https://www.cnbc.com/2022/06/06/musk-says-twitter-is-refusin...

> Musk waived due diligence when he agreed to buy Twitter at $54.20 per share in April.

Re:Twitter plans to comply with Musk’s demands for data by roamerz on Thursday June 09, 2022 @04:26PM (#31686348)
If there was false information provided by Twitter (a little irony there) I believe that agreement’s validity would be in question by common sense or in any court of law.
Re:Twitter plans to comply with Musk’s demands for data by ceejayoz on Thursday June 09, 2022 @04:31PM (#31686427)
Unlikely; they're quite careful in their wording. From their latest annual report: https://s22.q4cdn.com/826641620/files/doc_financials/2021/ar...

> We estimate that the average of false or spam accounts during the fourth quarter of 2021 continued to represent fewer than 5% of our mDAU during the quarter. However, this estimate is based on an internal review of a sample of accounts and we apply significant judgment in making this determination. As such, our estimation of false or spam accounts may not accurately represent the actual number of such accounts, and the actual number of false or spam accounts could be higher than we have currently estimated.

Re:Twitter plans to comply with Musk’s demands for data by nhkcode on Friday June 10, 2022 @03:56AM (#31691289)
>the average of false or spam accounts during the fourth quarter of 2021 continued to represent fewer than 5% of our mDAU

Not a native English speaker so maybe I'm just not understanding it correctly. Since mDAU are a subset of DAU, probably a tiny subset of it, wouldn't that statement mean that way way less than 5% of DAU would be bots?

Re:Twitter plans to comply with Musk’s demands for data by Dylan16807 on Friday June 10, 2022 @05:37AM (#31691902)
No. That statement is the fraction of mDAU accounts that are false/spam.

In a situation like this there is a very strong implication that you're talking about the intersection of the sets 'bots' and 'mDAU'. To talk about the raw number of bots vs. the raw number of mDAU would require very explicit wording to override that implication.

Re:Twitter plans to comply with Musk’s demands for data by trs8080 on Thursday June 09, 2022 @04:32PM (#31686437)
There was no false information provided by Twitter /because he waived due diligence/.

> Musk waived due diligence when he moved to buy the company, seemingly to hasten the acceptance of his bid.

> He wrote in a letter to Twitter Chairman Bret Taylor on April 24, "As we discussed, $54.20 has been and will remain my best and final offer, period. This is binary – my offer will either be accepted or I will exit my position."

> Twitter announced the company had accepted his offer the next day.

> But in the weeks that followed, Musk vocally criticized Twitter during media interviews and on Twitter, where he has tens of millions of followers.

Re:Twitter plans to comply with Musk’s demands for data by rurp on Thursday June 09, 2022 @09:55PM (#31689116)
Oh please, all of the principles involved here know that this is kayfabe. The bot issue is a pretense for Elon to try and weasel out of either the price or the entire deal. Both sides are aware that Twitter isn't even providing data that would let Musk verify the monetizable user calculation. The firehose is for posted tweets, while monetizable users mostly read.
Re:Twitter plans to comply with Musk’s demands for data by dragonwriter on Thursday June 09, 2022 @10:09PM (#31689192)
> If there was false information provided by Twitter (a little irony there) I believe that agreement’s validity would be in question by common sense or in any court of law.

By waiving due diligence, Musk has put himself into situation where it is entirely his responsibility to establish the existence of material false information, and no one else's opportunity to help, short of required discovery should he file a lawsuit establishing a legally cognizable claim.

Re:Twitter plans to comply with Musk’s demands for data by dundarious on Thursday June 09, 2022 @10:42PM (#31689377)
No, the standard is Material Adverse Effect, and that would be something like “50% of revenue is fake, they’ve been cooking the books”. https://archive.ph/20220607031236/https://www.bloomberg.com/...
Re:Twitter plans to comply with Musk’s demands for data by Ensorceled on Thursday June 09, 2022 @04:34PM (#31686473)
The SEC filings are not new information, so unless he has new information that show those filings are false, there is nothing to question in a court of law NOR the court of common sense.
Re:Twitter plans to comply with Musk’s demands for data by Dylan16807 on Thursday June 09, 2022 @11:42PM (#31689752)
He might think the bot estimates are wrong, but his opinion seems to have been exactly the same when he made the offer. So that's not a reasonable way to get out of the deal.
Re:Twitter plans to comply with Musk’s demands for data by threeseed on Thursday June 09, 2022 @09:30PM (#31688950)
> If there was false information provided by Twitter

Then pretty sure advertisers who are savvy about these things would've done something about it.

Re:Twitter plans to comply with Musk’s demands for data by andrelaszlo on Thursday June 09, 2022 @04:20PM (#31686277)
I think the "bluff" part of the headline is insinuating that Musk isn't doing due diligence, just stalling, and that perhaps he didn't even want to buy Twitter in the first place.
Re:Twitter plans to comply with Musk’s demands for data by roamerz on Thursday June 09, 2022 @04:27PM (#31686375)
That’s what I read from the title as well.
Re:Twitter plans to comply with Musk’s demands for data by XorNot on Thursday June 09, 2022 @11:26PM (#31689639)
$1 billion down cash to Twitter for pulling out is a lot of money "for teh lulz".
Re:Twitter plans to comply with Musk’s demands for data by tsimionescu on Friday June 10, 2022 @07:58AM (#31692806)
Compared to the $44B he owes them, finding some way to trigger the special clause that only requires him to pay $1B may be great.
Re:Twitter plans to comply with Musk’s demands for data by XorNot on Friday June 10, 2022 @08:37AM (#31693196)
AFAIK the $1 billion is just the "I don't want to do this anymore" clause he signed - if he just pulls out, the same applicable to Twitter if they pull out.

The weirder part is technically Twitter can sue to force the deal to close anyway.

Re:Twitter plans to comply with Musk’s demands for data by tsimionescu on Friday June 10, 2022 @09:03AM (#31693503)
No it's not. It's the "you started this, if you can't pull through on your financing you still have to pay us something for all the turmoil" clause. Musk has already agreed to buy Twitter: only extreme circumstances could lead to him not having to pay the amount he agreed to ($44B).
Re:Twitter plans to comply with Musk’s demands for data by XorNot on Friday June 10, 2022 @09:38PM (#31701183)
I don't think we're disagreeing? Musk doesn't have the money cash in hand, so the default position is "he doesn't have financing". The most he can become personally liable for I believe is the $1 billion fee.
Re:Twitter plans to comply with Musk’s demands for data by tsimionescu on Saturday June 11, 2022 @02:53AM (#31702540)
No, he is liable for the $44B offer he made and signed a contract for. Now, if say Tesla and SpaceX were to go bankrupt tomorrow and he would lose access to these funds, the $1B clause would activate.

Remember that he has already secured the funding, he has filed information about that with the SEC, and he has already signed the contract for paying Twitter's shareholders $44B in exchange for sole ownership of the company. Neither of the parties can pull out now: the deal is done. Only extraordinary circumstances can undo it anymore.

Re:Twitter plans to comply with Musk’s demands for data by snowwrestler on Thursday June 09, 2022 @09:57PM (#31689128)
When the information is not actually pertinent (good luck identifying bots from the firehose data), and the purchase contract has already been signed.
Re:Twitter plans to comply with Musk’s demands for data by jquery on Thursday June 09, 2022 @09:56PM (#31689122)
Elon is bluffing that he has the right to perform due diligence. Twitter has every legal right to ignore him. Instead, they played along, thus "calling his bluff".
Re:Twitter plans to comply with Musk’s demands for data by notyourday on Thursday June 09, 2022 @04:18PM (#31686249)
The vast majority of people playing "experts" have never engaged in any business transaction hence they don't know.
Re:Twitter plans to comply with Musk’s demands for data by Ensorceled on Thursday June 09, 2022 @04:37PM (#31686523)
I think a lot of people understand that "contractually waiving a home inspection" means you can't withdraw from a home purchase because you didn't get a home inspection. Even if you are now claiming, without proof, that the basement leaks.
Re:Twitter plans to comply with Musk’s demands for data by s1artibartfast on Friday June 10, 2022 @01:37AM (#31690455)
You can still withdraw from a home purchase if they seller lied in their disclosure, which is actually quite common.
Re:Twitter plans to comply with Musk’s demands for data by Ensorceled on Friday June 10, 2022 @02:52AM (#31690897)
Sure. But you can't withdraw by pointing to some clause and SHOUTING that they lied, they actually have to have lied and you have to prove it.

You're moving the goal posts on my analogy which is ironic ...

Re:Twitter plans to comply with Musk’s demands for data by MrMan on Thursday June 09, 2022 @09:48PM (#31689070)
why the analogies? its a corporate merger, there is a vast body of practice in this area, we can just speak from experience, no need to make incorrect analogies to other unrelated areas of endeavor
Re:Twitter plans to comply with Musk’s demands for data by gamblor956 on Thursday June 09, 2022 @10:27PM (#31689304)
Correct, and the analogy is apropos.

In a corporate acquisition, the contract is law. And if a party, with billions of dollars, chooses to waive a standard provision, then the choice to waive that provision is held against them when interpreting the parties' understandings of the terms and representations that were included in the contract.

In this case, Musk deliberately waived due diligence to get Twitter to accept his offer. This means, that all representations must be interpreted in the light in which they were not material to the contract and thus not grounds for withdrawing from his obligation to proceed with the purchase.

Re:Twitter plans to comply with Musk’s demands for data by Ensorceled on Friday June 10, 2022 @02:56AM (#31690924)
> why the analogies? its a corporate merger

Because clearly everybody is having hard time understanding this ...

Re:Twitter plans to comply with Musk’s demands for data by farmerstan on Thursday June 09, 2022 @10:42PM (#31689375)
See, you have proven your own ignorance with your example!

When you buy a home, even if you waive all contingencies, including a home inspection, if the seller fails to disclose material problems with the house, the sellers will be liable. This liability extends for years past the close of sale.

So you accidentally gave a perfect counter example as to why you are wrong.

Re:Twitter plans to comply with Musk’s demands for data by fzeroracer on Friday June 10, 2022 @06:37AM (#31692235)
That's exactly the problem and why Musk is going to fail at his bid. You can't just claim someone is lying, you have to prove it.

Musk has zero way of proving Twitter is lying about its bot problems. In fact, their bot case is fairly ironclad because as others have mentioned, they've been reporting on it for years and it's been implicitly assumed to be true, incl. by Musk who mentioned it as part of the reason why he was buying Twitter.

In order to prove Twitter is lying, he would need to prove that the past few years of data is falsified, provide his own data and prove his data is more accurate than Twitter.

Re:Twitter plans to comply with Musk’s demands for data by Ensorceled on Friday June 10, 2022 @10:48AM (#31694983)
I think it's worse than that for Musk.

He has to prove that they are lying AND the real number is a material change to the contract worthy of dismissing the contract.

By publicly stating that he thinks the bot problem is worse than they are saying AND that he is buying the company in part to fix the bot problem AND by waiving due diligence, Musk will have difficulty establishing that whatever new "bot number" he finds is actually a material change to the situation.

Re:Twitter plans to comply with Musk’s demands for data by gamblor956 on Friday June 10, 2022 @03:30AM (#31691172)
When you buy a home, even if you waive all contingencies, including a home inspection, if the seller fails to disclose material problems with the house, the sellers will be liable. This liability extends for years past the close of sale.

You have proven your own ignorance with your example!

The sellers are liable for some things, in some states, because there are laws that say they are liable for some things.

No such laws generally apply to corporate acquisition agreements.

Re:Twitter plans to comply with Musk’s demands for data by farmerstan on Friday June 10, 2022 @05:56AM (#31692005)
And yet there are federal disclosure laws that you must disclose like lead otherwise you are liable. So again you just proved yourself wrong.

And yes, nothing protects a company from not disclosing material information regardless of “due diligence”, including fraud. So give it up.

Re:Twitter plans to comply with Musk’s demands for data by gamblor956 on Friday June 10, 2022 @02:04PM (#31697418)
???

I'm not sure you understood my comment. The point of my comment was that with respect to housing sales, sellers have responsibilities with regards to things not covered by the sales contract because the law says they do. It's so not the point as to whether they are state or federal laws (but on that note, the "federal disclosure laws" specifically only apply to the use of lead-based paint in housing built before 1978, or in other words, to less than 25% of the US housing market).

There are no similar laws that govern corporate acquisitions. If an acquisition agreement does not explicitly (or by incorporation) require a disclosure about "X" , then the lack of disclosure about "X" has absolutely no impact on the resolution of the parties' respective contractual obligations.

Re:Twitter plans to comply with Musk’s demands for data by Ensorceled on Friday June 10, 2022 @08:12AM (#31692960)
There are no “federal you must disclose lead” laws for hostile takeovers.

There are no requirements to disclose anything at all on a hostile take over, that’s why smart people don’t waive due diligence.

Re:Twitter plans to comply with Musk’s demands for data by Ensorceled on Friday June 10, 2022 @02:53AM (#31690907)
> See, you have proven your own ignorance with your example!

Surprise, the basement isn't leaking. You just claimed it was.

This is the problem, you believe Elon is right without proof.

Re:Twitter plans to comply with Musk’s demands for data by KerrAvon on Thursday June 09, 2022 @11:40PM (#31689735)
A home sale is often more complicated than that. In some places, you can buy a house “as-is,” meaning that effectively the seller is largely not on the hook as long as they didn’t egregiously misrepresent the condition of the house.
Re:Twitter plans to comply with Musk’s demands for data by farmerstan on Friday June 10, 2022 @05:24AM (#31691828)
Yes but if they don’t disclose problems they are on the hook for it no matter if they sell it as-is.
Re:Twitter plans to comply with Musk’s demands for data by Ensorceled on Friday June 10, 2022 @09:42AM (#31694073)
That's not what "as-is" means, contractually. There may be certain things that, by regulation, must be disclosed (most commonly lead pipes, asbestos, flood plain) but other than that...

In some places, you can also sell a house as "condemned" and then you have no recourse what-so-ever.

Re:Twitter plans to comply with Musk’s demands for data by camdat on Thursday June 09, 2022 @04:28PM (#31686394)
Honestly I feel its the exact opposite. Anyone whose ever purchased a home or business should rightfully have cringed at the ~35% premium Musk is paying, and doubly so once he waved due diligence.

It seems like the people who are supporting this move assume Elon has some secret plan we're not privy too, but if so why would his actions be so erratic?

Re:Twitter plans to comply with Musk’s demands for data by sudosysgen on Thursday June 09, 2022 @08:12PM (#31688527)
A 35% premium over market price for a public company isn't necessarily cringe worthy.
Re:Twitter plans to comply with Musk’s demands for data by BbzzbB on Thursday June 09, 2022 @10:11PM (#31689211)
I'd call it ordinary. Microsoft offered (IIRC) like a 45% premium for Activision.
Re:Twitter plans to comply with Musk’s demands for data by TheCoelacanth on Friday June 10, 2022 @09:57AM (#31694289)
Yes, the price that gets quoted for stocks is just the point that marginal shares are getting traded at. You have to pay slightly higher than that to acquire even a single share. If you actually want to acquire every single share, you always have to pay a significant premium.
Re:Twitter plans to comply with Musk’s demands for data by topspin on Thursday June 09, 2022 @09:49PM (#31689077)
That's what I'm wondering. Not really. This is particularly transparent spin.

Analyzing the raw feed isn't all that hard for someone with Musk's resources. A fat pipe and a ClickHouse cluster could boil this down pretty efficiently. At least the metadata.

Analyzing tweet content would involve more effort, obviously. But bot operators aren't all that bright and much of their activity will be obvious.

The real question is would any conclusions of such analysis be actionable? Could Musk produce an analysis credible enough in the time available to lead to renegotiation? That is highly dubious.

Re:Twitter plans to comply with Musk’s demands for data by KerrAvon on Thursday June 09, 2022 @11:41PM (#31689745)
The bluff is that the bot issue is of any relevance whatsoever. It’s nonsense.