Agreed. I have nothing but bad experiences taking cars to the dealership for repair, and normally choose to avoid them for everything except for recalls. However, when buying an EV, I want to know that the manufacturer has repair facilities nearby since third-party EV mechanics are almost non-existent at this point.

If Ford is deliberately bypassing their dealerships for sales, then I would expect the repair service provided by dealerships to be even worse than normal, since they have no motivation to make you a repeat customer. And if not the dealership, where will I have the truck serviced?

I'm under the impression that the service part of the dealership _is_ the profitable part -- the car sales are more-or-less break-even after the monthly sales bonus incentives, which is why the dealer does the two-part "let me check with the guy in the back" and then "now that you've agreed to a price, you can talk to the guy in the back who will play 'good cop', explain things in plain english, and then try to upsell you on auto insurance, prepaid repair plans, and financing" to try to extract a little more profit out of a sale.

> I'm under the impression that the service part of the dealership _is_ the profitable part

If you drive a Ford, sure, it needs a lot of service. Which is why I stopped buying Ford. Toyota and Honda don’t need much service, and I don’t see how they are money makers for the dealer. And when you move to EV, you need even less service than before since the is no ICE to maintain.

I have a 19 year old Ford Focus that has been great. It's not much on creature comforts but it starts and runs like new. I've had two Hondas of the same vintage with dead transmissions.

It’s a shame those early 2000s automatic transmissions were junk. I’ve owned a few of them myself and it’s part of the territory. They got a lot better around 2012 but the damage was done.

> Toyota and Honda don’t need much service, and I don’t see how they are money makers for the dealer

Well first off, people like buy that marketing stuff hook line and sinker, so they make more on the sale. Second, pretty much any vehicle that rolls on earths surface is going to need stuff serviced in proportion to how close it is to the ground. For cars this means the dealer can make plenty of money selling brake pads, wheel bearings, suspension bushings, tie rods, and other wear items like that (and the labor to swap them out).

The thing about Toyota and Honda though is they create loyal customers who keep coming back. My buddy has a Toyota with 250k miles on it. And that’s considered normal wear and tear. Good luck trying to get a Ford past 120k. Ever had to deal with a Ford dealership? It’s like visiting hell for a day.

It's all in the perceptions.

Pretty much everything made in the last 30yr lasts as long as you're willing to keep doing the normal scheduled maintenance and keep feeding it wear parts. The average Toyota buyer is a lot more willing and financially capable of doing that than the kind of person who rolls negative equity on an Altima into a Dodge Journey.

I used to be responsible for a fleet of delivery vans. I would have no qualms about buying Ford.

You’re talking about the difference between commercial and commuter use. We both know that they are not the same at all, and have different manufacturing environments, parts, builds, and specs. Clearly, this discussion is not about commercial vehicles.

Go look at the list of most reliable cars. Toyota and Honda are always listed as number one and two. Ford isn’t ever discussed as "reliable". I think this goes way beyond perception. Yes, commercial vehicles by Ford are probably reliable, but we are talking about regular commuter cars, and when it comes to that class, Toyota and Honda lead.

Wow, I was not expecting Ford transit vans to be above-average reliable, but a bit of searching around shows that indeed they are. Not as reliable as a Mercedes Sprinter, but I wonder if the operating costs are lower over the years (they cost roughly the same, which also surprised me) than the Mercedes.

Mercedes is actually quite price competitive.

And commercial vehicles live in a different world where companies actually track TCO and friends.

I think that's just a reflection of how terrible the Euro-vans are in general. in North America they're not held in high regard by anyone other than the highfalutin taxi/airport shuttle/mobility van fleets that buy new and depreciate over the warranty period.

The Transit and the Sprinter (the latter of which has really gone down the tubes since it's '00s peak) might be "good" but that's like being MVP in a junior varsity game. Anyone operating them outside of warranty generally hates them compared to the Ford and Chevy vans they're replacing.

Sigh. This is why we can't have good things. Thank you for saving me some research time on the heads up of the overall Mercedes quality.

It gels with my experience with Mercedes sedans. Until I got to the very top of the line S-series like the 5xx/6xx, the owner experience on recent models was still a step down from what it was like leading up to 2000, mostly with fiddly bit details and robustness/conscientiousness overlooked in those details, and this quality corruption seems to have infected the other product offerings from your description. The core vehicle itself was fine, but I'm not paying the Mercedes premium just to overlook those details.

Maybe I'll stick with my original plan of getting a Toyota Hi-Lux and convert + tow what I want instead of lumping it into an all-in-one large commercial/trade van.

> I think that's just a reflection of how terrible the Euro-vans are in general. in North America they're not held in high regard by anyone other than the highfalutin taxi/airport shuttle/mobility van fleets that buy new and depreciate over the warranty period.

I’m sorry, but this statement is so utterly and totally opposed to the facts, that I’m beginning to think you’re doing PR for Ford. The demand for Euro-Vans in North America is so high, there’s a 1-2 year waiting list. It’s literally the most wanted vehicle in its class.

Oh FFS. Fine, if the fanboys demand it I'll do a personal use comparison.

What do you do in your Accord? You commute in it, or something along those lines, and that's probably about it. How much back seat wear is it getting? You got kids fighting back there? Do you stick your new dryer on the roof or do you pay the $20 for delivery? Your peers probably answer those questions about the same way. Meanwhile, several tax brackets down things are way different. Some single mom's four kids are doing their best impression of UFC in the back of her '09 CVT Altima, no wonder the seat is ripped, the floor contains a dozen types of dried soft drink syrup and the "window lock" switch is worn out by 100k. The differences only get wider as you start considering vehicles that are sold as having a lot of utility (wagons, SUVs, minivans), at the lower price tiers people size these vehicles to be just barely enough for what they want to do. At the high end people are buy way more vehicle than they need.

Let's even remove brand from the equation. How many grand Marquis do you see on the road these days? Probably 2 for every non-cop and non-ex-cop Crown Vic you see. Do you think that is in any way representative of the sales numbers when those things were rolling off the line back in the day? Of course not. Vics out-sold Grand Marquis and Town Cars by a wide margin. But a greater fraction of 'Vic buyers rode them hard and put them away wet with the intention of getting something else around 100-200k. The older, wealthier Grand Marquis buyers did the maintenance on schedule and kept them in good order so they lasted longer.

A key mechanism of "lasting longer" is price. People have different expectations and give different treatment to a car depending on price. So you trade in your Accord or whatever, it's in great shape. It goes on the used car lot for a lot of $$. So that ensures the the statistical next buyer is more well off, expecting it to last longer and therefore more willing to care for it. Meanwhile the guy that buys the Altima from the above example pays pennies for it and is expecting it to go maybe 50k before needing something big at which point he intends to dump it. So he's not gonna fix that window lock switch. He's gonna have no qualms about letting his dog f-up the already torn back seat. He's also gonna skip the transmission fluid changes and air filter and generally neglect the car because there's no reason not to if you intend on dumping it in short order.

You can run the same comparison on '00s Impalas and the Buick equivalent (both generally regarded as supremely reliable cars). The Impalas got beat and thrown away. The Buicks are still around (proportionally).

You don't think Ford, or GM, or whoever, makes reliable models for the same reason you'd never consider buying a house anywhere other than a good school district. It's a self-reinforcing expectation foisted upon you by the kind of people you surround yourself with.

You just did it again, for a second time. All the benefits you describe in the specific models come from Canadian manufacturing, which gives it a higher reliability rating than its US produced counterparts.

> You don't think Ford, or GM, or whoever, makes reliable models for the same reason you'd never consider buying a house anywhere other than a good school district. It's a self-reinforcing expectation foisted upon you by the kind of people you surround yourself with.

Completely wrong and incorrect. I’ve owned and driven Ford. They were not reliable and one model I had was officially recalled 17 times, but had numerous outstanding issues that were never recalled for those problems. Toyota and Honda owners don’t have these kind of concerns.

I will freely admit that Canada makes more reliable Fords (and GM) than the US, and the reliability indices reflect that fact. Back in the day, I knew many people who would only buy Fords and GMs made in Canada for this reason.

Well, my 2000 Expedition went 390k miles.

Service was:

Two alternators, installed by me.

The usual brakes and tires, half installed by me.

Couple of gas caps. (Wtf?)

Two sets of the bes plugs money can buy because that engine was the one with crazy thin threaded areas where the plugs go. Had the dealer techs do those. And I went to a rural dealer, had a great experience.

Water pump, installed by local shop.

I would still be driving that rig, but it had an internal engine component failure that costs more than the thing was worth, so I sold it to a family here for a couple hundred bucks. Husband does his own work, has small shop, can profit on the vehicle.

Was a great vehicle. I got it from a shady dealer who I out dealt for a purchase 3 percent over invoice, and zero back end contract adders. (Took 6 hours, but literally saved me just south of 15k)

I agree with you, all that said. The dealers near me are the worst! That is by far the more common experience.

I have family in the rural part of the State and the dealer there is awesome! Would recommend.

My Ford driving experiences do not agree with you. But, that is all our own experiences too.

One of my favorite Fords was an old 1980 Futura. Box car, 4 cylinder, 4 speed manual trans. That thing got crazy good mileage and was fun to drive. Wonderfully old school black with plaid interior, that old AM radio with center dash speaker, lol. I went 100k in that car. Got it for a song too. Ugly.

Consumer Reports testing consistently rate Asian car brands above American brands in terms of reliability.

https://www.consumerreports.org/car-reliability-owner-satisf...

This is an irrelevant comment. The topic of the conversation taking place is the revenue distribution of dealerships, not the relative reliability of different car manufacturers.

Regardless of manufacturer among well-known cars in the U.S., the economics of a car dealership do not change from one to the next.

They have a long history of this, even when the "American" car is the same as the Asian car except for the name plate. The big brands often fill gaps in their lineup with a car from a smaller Asian company. Other than the name it is the same car built on the same assembly line. There cannot be a difference, yet Consumer reports will rate the American car lower.

It’s possible. This reminds me of the partnership between GM and Suzuki.

And what will you do when Toyota/Honda do the same thing as Ford/Tesla? Looking at things now, it looks like it's how things are going

I’ll second this from a privileged position. I own a late model Land Rover, and if I take it down to the dealer to solve something, they treat me very well and put me in a very nice lounge while I wait. It’s a first class experience. I don’t think I’d get as nice attention from a non-luxury dealer though.

I would rather they pickup my car fix it and return it. To me that is luxury. Forcing me to go to your location and waiting on you is not convenient.

I get that option from both my Lincoln dealer and my Audi dealer, even for scheduled services. And they both leave a loaner with me, not some Uber credits.

That is most certainly also an option, but likely a bit wasteful and much more time consuming if it’s a small issue.

What about a loaner while your car is being fixed?

I feel like any repair at the dealership costs at least 50% more than if you go to another establishment. Does that ring true to anyone else?

> I feel like any repair at the dealership costs at least 50% more than if you go to another establishment.

It’s entirely dependent on the market and region. Sometimes it is cheaper to go to the dealer depending on make and model. It also depends on where you live and the availability of mechanics and parts.

There’s also certain things that are cheaper at a dealership. My father is a mechanic and still brings his truck to the dealership for oil changes because they will change the oil for literally less than his shop can buy the oil for.

Every dealership I’ve ever been to has been like that.

Sometimes they’re even worth using for “normal” repairs because they will sometimes bill by the book even if the actual labor time is higher.

> Sometimes they’re even worth using for “normal” repairs because they will sometimes bill by the book even if the actual labor time is higher.

This is exactly correct. Which is why if you aren’t sure, compare prices with your preferred mechanic first. Where I am, the best independent mechanics and shops charge more than the dealer, for various reasons.

Every shop I’ve seen uses the book times for any standard job.

My experience is that independents are significantly cheaper on a like-for-like basis, are also more willing to do a workable partial or alternate repair, but have worse lounges and often no courtesy car. (So you’re getting something for the extra cost.)

Yeah, it’s worth knowing the details - some shops will charge book time if it’s in their favor but charge clock time if the repair is a pain - and with older cars that have dents and rust and such it can often be a pain.

The closer the person who does the work is to being the person who writes the bill the closer you get to clock time in my experience.

I am lost, what is 'book times'?

The auto manufacturers put out repair guides that list how many hours of a mechanics time a repair should take.

https://www.liveabout.com/the-truth-about-flat-rate-car-repa...

Many mechanics aren’t really directly employees of the shop, and often get paid based on work they get (some even have to “rent” the stall). It can be an interesting industry.

Sounds like Stockholm Syndrome - they made an unreliable car that you need to get serviced all the time, but hey - at least there's free soda and popcorn!

All manufacturers can suffer from poor repair times, not only Tesla. Especially these days.

I waited six months for a brake booster replacement in my Audi SQ5 as it sat in the service center. They did give me a loaner the whole time though...

RS 5 owner (and a few As). Any time my Audi has been in the shop for more than 2 hours I'm offered or given a loaner. Or they pick up my car, at home, drop off a loaner, and then return mine.

Try that with Tesla. Hey, we can give you Uber credits. Hope they're usable in your area, and you didn't have too much to do.

Tesla had very poor repair times even before the supply chain issues, much worse than other makes.

I don't disbelieve you but would still really like details (how much worse than others?)/a citation here.

Um. Dude. That's a non-randomly sampled anecdote that says nothing about average repair times. It is quite literally worse than useless.

Fair point, but if you check the subreddit there are lots of similar anecdotes and the general sentiment of the commenters is that it is a common issue. I understand it isn't empirical data, but I don't know that that data exists outside of Tesla and I wouldn't really trust any data coming from them.

There is virtually none. My brother and my best friend sold cars and jumps around. Now they are at a no haggle Toyota dealership that basically sells at MSRP. It is generally much better for everyone involved. Just make it like a Tesla experience, throw you the keys, if you want it here is the prices. Don't have to deal with BS anywhere.

The "dealership" model needs to be killed off. It's probably just a few dozen moguls that make money off of these dealerships and spend most of their money lobbying.

I think that’s far less true then you think it is.

I don’t love the dealer experience, but they distribute the wealth of the auto industry regionally instead of concentrating it in Dearborn or wherever. Local dealers are always sponsoring little league teams and paying property taxes on relatively valuable real estate in a way that Tesla never will.

I dunno, it’s hard to argue this if you take it as gospel that the economy is at its best when it’s finding efficiency at whatever cost. I don’t feel super strongly, but I do think there’s something to this.

I read a story on Reddit of a guy who was banned from CarMax and couldn't figure out why. He was told it was decided by corporate, and that was that.

https://old.reddit.com/r/carmax/comments/cx82v8/carmax_refus...

Kind of reminds me of stories of folks who need support with Google account issues - sometimes things like that just slip through the cracks. Google might have processes for typical cases, but if a weird corner case arises, it can be impossible to get someone to make an exception to help you.

I wonder if things would go the same way with centralized sales and repair processes ... "hey my new car is having this weird issue" ... "sorry the algorithm says everything is within spec, go away", rather than potentially being able to contact multiple independent dealership service departments until someone is able to reproduce/fix your issue.

That's how Polestar works- online sales with no negotiations, showrooms that are just that- showrooms and service is done at Volvo service places.

Tesla's wait times could be because they are scaling up and part delays.

Well, and becuse they don't have a dealership in every city. You can get a ford serviced anywhere and they have a waiting room for you to wait if needed. Even in rural areas, a very small percentage of the country is not going to be close to a dealer.

if your driving a newer car, theyll handle warrenty work, recalls, service packages that your car came with.

Everyone is having parts Problems, it's the scaling that Tesla still needs to do.

Tesla's wait times are because every part that sits on a shelf for warranty/service/accident repairs is a part that can't go on a vehicle coming off the assembly line, and we all know that Tesla / Elon has a raging hard on for "deliveries, deliveries, deliveries".

"Because they're scaling up". They've been making vehicles for 14 years, how much more time do they get to realize they should have a parts network?

> Tesla's wait times are because every part that sits on a shelf for warranty/service/accident repairs is a part that can't go on a vehicle coming off the assembly line, and we all know that Tesla / Elon has a raging hard on for "deliveries, deliveries, deliveries".

The Soviet Union's automotive industry operated in this exact manner. It's why, when by some miracle you got your hands on a car, sourcing replacement parts was nigh-impossible.

> ... how much more time do they get to realize they should have a parts network?

It took them ~60 years, give or take.