News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Google cancelled a talk on caste bias by ZeroGravitas on Thursday June 02, 2022 @08:54AM (#31594216)
Is there a Wikipedia list of obscure 'race'-isms? I find reading about other cultures or other time period's biases to be informative and wonder what the common elements might be.

Off the top of my head, issues I can think of where an outsider may be oblivious between the "sides" are:

Indian caste

Japanese Barukumin caste

Protestant/Catholic in Europe

Jewish people in Europe/US/USSR

English Class System, or Southern/Northern

Jim Crow, or North/South or Midwest Vs coastal, WASPs, or Nativism.

Ainu in Hokkaido.

Ukraine vs Russian is topical at the moment.

Re:Google cancelled a talk on caste bias by izacus on Thursday June 02, 2022 @09:07AM (#31594355)
In Europe, you can always reliably find a massive amount of racism against the Romani people (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romani_people).
Re:Google cancelled a talk on caste bias by jeromegv on Thursday June 02, 2022 @09:39AM (#31594716)
Of course your message was followed with people accusing the whole culture of robbing people. It's quite interesting how if you switched any other culture this would be downvoted to hell, but the moment we talk of Romani people, the most strong worded racist comments are just accepted. I guess we still have work to do.
Re:Google cancelled a talk on caste bias by no_time on Monday June 06, 2022 @03:46AM (#31638132)
It's the pattern seeking part of your brain doing it's thing. Negating it with virtue signalling won't make it go away.

Go to police.hu and every time you see someone with the family name Balogh | Góman | Lakatos, you drink. I guarantee you will be dead from alcohol poisioning in an hour or two.

Re:Google cancelled a talk on caste bias by the_only_law on Thursday June 02, 2022 @09:24AM (#31594560)
It’s very blunt and to the point as well, no beating around the bush or wriggling around to try to make yourself look less bad for it like in America.
Re:Google cancelled a talk on caste bias by izacus on Thursday June 02, 2022 @09:45AM (#31594829)
I'm fascinated how such comments actually showed up here down the thread. ^^
Re:Google cancelled a talk on caste bias by throwaway71271 on Thursday June 02, 2022 @10:31AM (#31595352)
the roma i know just want to live in a different way, they dont really want to participate in the system we have built.

they live by another set of rules and values

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romani_society_and_culture https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kris_(Romani_court)

Re:Google cancelled a talk on caste bias by TrackerFF on Thursday June 02, 2022 @09:23AM (#31594534)
Not to be confused with the Romanian people - i.e, people from Romania. (Though some of the Roma people can obviously also be Romanians!).

EDIT: I absolutely condone discrimination, but I think for the people that live in areas with very visible Roma people, it's kind of obvious why.

At best, you'll just see them begging on the streets. At worst, you'll experience getting hounded down by them, getting robbed, or your property looted. Mostly just an issue in larger cities, and it used to be much worse 10 years ago.

We had this one older Roma guy that would have his usual spot, and he'd sit there and beg all day long. Rain, snow, or wind - he'd always sit there. In the end, he became a fixture in the city scenery.

But one particular winter got really bad, and some senior citizen offered him their apartment (rent-free) for a couple of months, as they were away for the winter. He passed away a couple of years later.

Re:Google cancelled a talk on caste bias by tzs on Thursday June 02, 2022 @11:10AM (#31595833)
> I absolutely condone discrimination

Did you mean condemn?

condemn: express complete disapproval of

condone: approve or sanction (something), especially with reluctance

Re:Google cancelled a talk on caste bias by TrackerFF on Thursday June 02, 2022 @11:31AM (#31596116)
I stand corrected - meant condemn.
[dead]
Re:Google cancelled a talk on caste bias by ajsnigrutin on Thursday June 02, 2022 @09:32AM (#31594655)
Yep...

I live in a country with two large-ish gypsy areas, and we have a lot of people who are very loud about their rights and discrimination against them...

...somehow none of those people actually live anywhere near them.

There really is discrimination against them, but on the other hand, the system (police, courts, politics) allows them to do all the shitty stuff they're stereotyped by.

[dead]
Re:Google cancelled a talk on caste bias by monetus on Thursday June 02, 2022 @09:58AM (#31594952)
(From the us) I went to school with a Hungarian who couldn't understand why we were confused about his jokes - they were based around body building so that his arms could become "gypsy killers". He was such a nice guy, it seemed really discordant. This is an anecdote of the kind of cultural exchange we have.
Re:Google cancelled a talk on caste bias by the_only_law on Thursday June 02, 2022 @10:18AM (#31595207)
I knew a similar guy, but he was Spanish and his catchphrase was “Moor killer” which was just really odd to me, given the Reconquista ended a very long time ago, but he says a lot of terms/cultural aspects still exist from then.
Re:Google cancelled a talk on caste bias by tokai on Thursday June 02, 2022 @10:14AM (#31595158)
That's literally how racism against Afro Americans is often excused towards Euros.
Re:Google cancelled a talk on caste bias by baisq on Thursday June 02, 2022 @10:33AM (#31595380)
Yes, I was going to add to that comment that Europeans can't understand the treatment of blacks in America either.
Re:Google cancelled a talk on caste bias by api on Thursday June 02, 2022 @09:02AM (#31594307)
Regional elitism in the USA is definitely a form of soft caste system. If you are from the upper East coast or the West coast you are a member of a higher caste than if you are from the interior, and inside the US there are definitely smaller caste differences.

The South gets it the worst. When I was in college (University of Cincinnati) engineering students from the South were sometimes encouraged to lose their Southern accents because it made them sound "stupid." I heard a few stories about this.

Re:Google cancelled a talk on caste bias by cebert on Thursday June 02, 2022 @09:08AM (#31594370)
I live in the Midwest in Michigan, and I can’t say that I feel like I’ve been treated as a lower caste in the Midwest. We have some wonderful learning institutions, such as the University of Michigan, and a lot of talented and individuals.
Re:Google cancelled a talk on caste bias by seneca on Thursday June 02, 2022 @09:22AM (#31594532)
This is maybe the strongest out-group bias in elite circles in the US currently. I believe that is largely because it is acceptable, or even required, in the current elite ideologies that dominate corporate and academic entities currently. And they hate to have it pointed out.
Re:Google cancelled a talk on caste bias by api on Thursday June 02, 2022 @09:38AM (#31594715)
I've thought for a long time that woke could get actual traction by being more woke and extending the concept of "-isms are not okay" to include American caste and regional elitisms and classism that isn't about race.

A course on recognizing bias against lowland Southerners would be funny but not wrong or inappropriate and you'd see plenty of rich coastal fragility on display.

Classism and regionalism are absolutely huge in this country, especially when those on the receiving end are not in a racial minority.

But what would people do if there were no easily identifiable out groups to stereotype and mock?

Re:Google cancelled a talk on caste bias by floraandfauna on Thursday June 02, 2022 @10:53AM (#31595625)
As someone who grew up in the Deep South but studied and worked on the east coast for many years, I can confirm this to be 100% true.

At a past job, I worked for a company headquartered on the upper east coast, but which had opened a "tech hub" in the mid-sized Southern city where I lived at the time. Some of my co-workers had fairly pronounced Southern accents and people in the home office would regularly laugh and make fun of them during meetings. And after I put in my notice, the tech lead on the project I was on declared, completely unprompted, during a completely unrelated call that "we haven't had any issues with code quality or anything, but Southerners are just slow. That's just how they are. It's the culture." I think that I will regret for the rest of my life not telling him to go eff himself right then and there.

And I wish I could say that that was an exception to my experience elsewhere, but while living on the east coast I heard more offhand comments about "stupid Southerners" than I can count, often followed by an awkward "I mean, not you of course, you're different". Interestingly, many (but not all) of the same people who think it's funny to beat up on the South are also the most likely to make impassioned performative declarations of support for every DEI initiative they come across. The level of cognitive dissonance required to maintain that kind of mindset must be intense.

Re:Google cancelled a talk on caste bias by api on Thursday June 02, 2022 @03:40PM (#31599614)
> The level of cognitive dissonance required to maintain that kind of mindset must be intense.

Holding and advancing multiple deeply contradictory ideas is something humans are very good at.

I've come to believe that most people spend very little time asking if their ideas are reasonable. They just believe what they need to believe to fit into a group. It's more about group membership signaling than anything else.

Primates will choose social connection over food, so it's not surprising that we'll also choose social connection over rationality.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OrNBEhzjg8I

Re:Google cancelled a talk on caste bias by carapace on Thursday June 02, 2022 @12:35PM (#31597072)
For what it's worth, the stereotype of the "stupid Southerner" in America got started due to an absolutely massive hookworm infestation, "an average of 40% of school-aged children were infected with hookworm". The crazy thing is that it has handled a century ago yet the stereotype and prejudice still linger.

> On October 26, 1909, the Rockefeller Sanitary Commission for the Eradication of Hookworm Disease was organized as a result of a gift of US$1 million from John D. Rockefeller, Sr. The five-year program was a remarkable success and a great contribution to the United States' public health, instilling public education, medication, field work and modern government health departments in eleven southern states.[45] The hookworm exhibit was a prominent part of the 1910 Mississippi state fair.

> The commission found that an average of 40% of school-aged children were infected with hookworm.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hookworm_infestation#Eradicati...

Re:Google cancelled a talk on caste bias by mattcwilson on Thursday June 02, 2022 @09:08AM (#31594365)
Re:Google cancelled a talk on caste bias by capitalsigma on Thursday June 02, 2022 @05:28PM (#31600732)
Show me someone in tech with a strong Brooklyn or Boston accent.
Re:Google cancelled a talk on caste bias by rob74 on Thursday June 02, 2022 @09:03AM (#31594318)
The common element is always in-group vs. out-group (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In-group_and_out-group). It doesn't have to be based on race or ethnicity, it can also be e.g. Democrats vs. Republicans in the US, supporters of different football clubs etc. etc.
Re:Google cancelled a talk on caste bias by ZeroGravitas on Thursday June 02, 2022 @09:16AM (#31594463)
I nearly listed football/sport team support but thought it might be too out there a reference for most people. Now I'm wondering how global such sporting based rivalries are, and if they always originally grew from one of the others.
Re:Google cancelled a talk on caste bias by fartcannon on Thursday June 02, 2022 @09:09AM (#31594372)
I don't know if the Indian caste thing should be considered obscure. There are 1.3 billion Indians. By number of people affected it might be one of the more important conversations in the world today.
Re:Google cancelled a talk on caste bias by zen_1 on Thursday June 02, 2022 @09:17AM (#31594475)
I think discussions of "obscurity" are always relative to the audience in question, so while I highly doubt caste discussions would reasonably be considered obscure in India (or within the Indian diaspora), I (a non-Indian) had certainly never heard of casteism abroad until I saw submissions on HN discussing it at Cisco.
Re:Google cancelled a talk on caste bias by PhillyG on Thursday June 02, 2022 @09:50AM (#31594880)
Agreed. "Region specific" might be a better term for what the commenter intended
Re:Google cancelled a talk on caste bias by np_tedious on Thursday June 02, 2022 @09:13AM (#31594420)
It's "obscure" bc it is underappreciated in the US and probably most places outside of India
Re:Google cancelled a talk on caste bias by ZeroGravitas on Thursday June 02, 2022 @09:13AM (#31594430)
I intended 'obscure' in the 'not easily understood' (to outsiders) sense, but probably an unfortunate word choice as it also means 'unknown'.
Re:Google cancelled a talk on caste bias by Karawebnetwork on Thursday June 02, 2022 @09:37AM (#31594703)
Not as much of a day-to-day issue for the newest generations but French Canada vs. English Canada (historically "Lower Canada" vs "Upper Canada", which shouldn't be relevant but some people still use the old labels an excuse for casual 'race'-isms as you call it).

The youngest French Canadians generally speak English. However the oldest generations (50+ or 60+ depending on the region) couldn't and mostly still can't due to the way the system was set up. And since a lot of companies came from either the US or the rest of Canada, they had no hopes in climbing ranks or being competitive as businesspeople. There are some records of French Canadians being sent to unusually harsh missions during the great wars too.

There are casual insults such as calling French Canadian "frogs" and English Canadians "square heads" still in use today.

It is still present even in tech companies where English speakers are sent to client meetings as it is sometimes perceived "rude" to sent someone with a French accent to the front.

These days, it's mostly about not extending the classic "warm Canadian welcome" to the other category. But in some situations, it can get more serious.

(That being said, in 2022 it does not really compare to some of the other examples listed above.)

Re:Google cancelled a talk on caste bias by inglor_cz on Thursday June 02, 2022 @08:55AM (#31594226)
Add "Muslim/Kafir" to the list. And Sunni/Shi'a.
Re:Google cancelled a talk on caste bias by ralmidani on Thursday June 02, 2022 @09:11AM (#31594398)
Bad analogy. A person’s deeply-held belief that a given religion is true, and calling others to that belief, is not the same as saying “you were born of a lower caste and should never be able to escape that.”

Of course, it goes without saying, perceiving you belong to the true faith does not justify violence or discrimination. But faith-based identification is not analogous to a caste system.

Re:Google cancelled a talk on caste bias by alex_smart on Thursday June 02, 2022 @10:20AM (#31595244)
Are we going to lightly dismiss the prosecution of polytheists in many Islamic countries?

>Of course, it goes without saying, perceiving you belong to the true faith does not justify violence or discrimination. But faith-based identification is not analogous to a caste system.

They were clearly talking about faith-based discrimination. Why would you assume that they were talking about faith-based identification, especially given the context?

Re:Google cancelled a talk on caste bias by kergonath on Thursday June 02, 2022 @09:35AM (#31594679)
> list of obscure 'race'-isms

The word you need is “xenophobia” (hate of the others, of those who are different). Race is a limited, artificial concept and by focusing on it we miss the forest for the trees. Xenophobia is as old as humanity and can be based on anything: physical features; ideas, religions, languages, family ties, etc.

Re:Google cancelled a talk on caste bias by HKH2 on Thursday June 02, 2022 @09:48AM (#31594857)
Since when does '-phobia' mean 'hatred'? If I suffer from arachnophobia, do I hate spiders?
Re:Google cancelled a talk on caste bias by olddustytrail on Thursday June 02, 2022 @12:23PM (#31596886)
Since always. It's an extreme dislike ( the opposite of "philia"). "Revulsion" might be a better translation than fear or hatred.
Re:Google cancelled a talk on caste bias by HKH2 on Thursday June 02, 2022 @01:27PM (#31597901)
> Since always.

Is was used like that in Greek? Even the clinical meaning today does not include hatred.

> "Revulsion" might be a better translation than fear or hatred.

Fear does not require disgust. I am scared of snakes but I think they are beautiful animals.

Re:Google cancelled a talk on caste bias by ZeroGravitas on Friday June 03, 2022 @06:21AM (#31606457)
I don't think fears are phobias though? If someone said there's a poisonous snake behind you, then it's not a phobia to move away.

Like many psychological things the line is more "when your response is damaging to yourself and others".

I knew someone with a phobia of stickers on fruit. Just tried to Google what that is called and found this comment from a sufferer:

"I can't have them on my skin and if anyone put one on me without prior warning I would panic and scream. I HATE HATE HATE ones on fruit"

Re:Google cancelled a talk on caste bias by kergonath on Thursday June 02, 2022 @03:12PM (#31599295)
Yeah, it's mostly fear. I blame my lack of coffee at the time and my non-English mother tongue :)

Though the line between fear and hate is quite thin and blurry in human psychology. The arachnophobes I know do, in fact, hate spiders with a passion.

Re:Google cancelled a talk on caste bias by HKH2 on Thursday June 02, 2022 @10:55PM (#31603720)
I was making a comment about the trend in general. Some native speakers also agree with your definition.

> Though the line between fear and hate is quite thin and blurry in human psychology.

In some instances it may be, although the word 'awe' has no sense of hatred in it.

> The arachnophobes I know do, in fact, hate spiders with a passion.

Okay, well how about snakes? I'm afraid of them but I don't think anybody is disgusted by them.

Re:Google cancelled a talk on caste bias by ZeroGravitas on Friday June 03, 2022 @04:30AM (#31605713)
> although the word 'awe' has no sense of hatred in it.

Awful has some meanings that are close

https://www.etymonline.com/word/awful

Re:Google cancelled a talk on caste bias by HKH2 on Friday June 03, 2022 @06:23AM (#31606481)
'awesome' does not.
Re:Google cancelled a talk on caste bias by PhillyG on Thursday June 02, 2022 @09:56AM (#31594936)
"Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering."

Edit: It might be a quote from fiction but there's some truth in there somewhere

Re:Google cancelled a talk on caste bias by HKH2 on Thursday June 02, 2022 @10:22AM (#31595267)
Fear can lead to aggression, but it doesn't have to; you can be avoidant.
Re:Google cancelled a talk on caste bias by pradn on Thursday June 02, 2022 @09:02AM (#31594306)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cagot

A persecuted minority in France.

Re:Google cancelled a talk on caste bias by fmajid on Thursday June 02, 2022 @09:19AM (#31594488)
I’m French and had never heard of this. Very interesting, thanks!
Re:Google cancelled a talk on caste bias by likis on Thursday June 02, 2022 @09:13AM (#31594417)
Re:Google cancelled a talk on caste bias by TrackerFF on Thursday June 02, 2022 @09:32AM (#31594648)
Not sure how the Sámi people are treated in Sweden, Finland, or Russia - but here in Norway there has indeed been a long history of discrimination against the Sámi.

But tbh, it's just half a century ago that pretty much all people from Northern Norway were discriminated against, in the southern parts. Which is why most people moving south were recommended to change accent - fast. More so if you wanted to work in any client/customer-facing job...

Back to the Sámi - unfortunately there are still shitty people out there that feel the need to voice their opinion if they see Sámi people wearing traditional clothing. But it should also be said that there's conflict within the Sámi community, which also comes down to what type Sámi you are (sea/coast Sámi vs hill/raindeer). Most of the real conflicts in any case revolve around land/areal usage.

Re:Google cancelled a talk on caste bias by nyolfen on Thursday June 02, 2022 @04:45PM (#31600286)
> (sea/coast Sámi vs hill/raindeer)

can you speak more to this? i'm totally unfamiliar with the folk taxonomy

Re:Google cancelled a talk on caste bias by TrackerFF on Thursday June 02, 2022 @06:46PM (#31601520)
Sure - traditionally the Sámi people have been divided into two groups: Those that have lived around / near coastlines ("sea Sámi"), and those more inland (typically just "Sámi", or "reindeer Sámi", "hill/mountain Sámi".

In short, the coastal Sámi people have made their living off fishing, farming, and similar activities.

On the other hand, those living inland have mostly made their money off reindeer husbandry. Reindeers will forage over a large area, and in Northern Norway / Sweden / Finland / Russia that includes large tundra and hilly places - so many of Sámi involved in that trade would trek over and live in these areas.

With that said, these days I think only 5%-10% of Sámi have reindeer husbandry as their main profession.

But the vast majority of conflicts between Sámi people and the rest usually comes down to the reindeer. Since the reindeer need a huge area to graze on, it tends to become a problem for companies wanting to develop the area for industry.

Just recently our supreme court decided that a wind farm had been bult in conflict with cultural landscape of local Sámi people. Reindeer husbandry is a cultural heritage activity, and thus protected. The area reindeer graze on, is thus a cultural landscape, and also protected.

The intra-Sámi conflicts, from what I've seen and heard, boils down to either things related to the reindeer industry - or I guess elitism from the "true" Sámi people toward the coastal Sámi people.

Re:Google cancelled a talk on caste bias by boredumb on Thursday June 02, 2022 @09:27AM (#31594592)
Loxism

Dominicans and Haitians

Colombians and.... the rest of Latin america

People are hardwired to perceive outsiders as a threat and usually this originates from good reasoning.

Re:Google cancelled a talk on caste bias by int_19h on Saturday June 04, 2022 @11:08PM (#31627634)
In Russia (and also Ukraine and Belarus), it's more often the Caucasian people these days. And I don't mean the weird American synonym of "white", but actual people from the Caucasus - Chechens, Ossetians, Armenians, Georgians etc.
Re:Google cancelled a talk on caste bias by RicoElectrico on Thursday June 02, 2022 @09:14AM (#31594443)
All the three ethnic groups that comprise Belgium?

English vs French speaking Canadians?

Re:Google cancelled a talk on caste bias by 29athrowaway on Thursday June 02, 2022 @09:17AM (#31594471)
Re:Google cancelled a talk on caste bias by H8crilA on Thursday June 02, 2022 @09:43AM (#31594788)
These are not obscure at all! Especially the last one. See the intercepted phone calls from the security service of Ukraine, the level of Russian racism is beyond what I could imagine prior to Feb 24. It is worse than whatever the Red Army did in WW2, and almost reaching the level that the Nazis showed.

Russian Nazism is very real, leads to rape, murder, forced deportation and torture.

Re:Google cancelled a talk on caste bias by smegsicle on Thursday June 02, 2022 @11:55AM (#31596436)
balkans / other balkans
Re:Google cancelled a talk on caste bias by bzxcvbn on Thursday June 02, 2022 @08:58AM (#31594258)
Lumping in hindu castes, Christian denominations, and Jewish people in what I assume is the beginning-mid 20th century, makes no sense. Yes, it all falls under xenophobia, but the impact are wildly different.
Re:Google cancelled a talk on caste bias by ZeroGravitas on Thursday June 02, 2022 @09:09AM (#31594381)
I'd be intetested to hear how the ones you are familiar with differ, and in what ways you see parallels.
Re:Google cancelled a talk on caste bias by Karawebnetwork on Thursday June 02, 2022 @09:53AM (#31594913)
ZeroGravitas is asking people to come up with a list of situations that fall under xenophobia. I do not see them implying that those issues are related or comparable.