News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Why the government took home prices out of its main infla... by dragonwriter on Friday May 27, 2022 @09:42AM (#31529536)
> the really psychotic aspect of this all is that in the long run it will destroy the economy as family formation craters

Starting a family doesn't require owning a home. Vast numbers of people start families without ever owning a home.

Re:Why the government took home prices out of its main infla... by leoedin on Friday May 27, 2022 @09:52AM (#31529640)
The point isn't that you can't start a family without owning a home (obviously that's untrue) but that many people won't want to start a family while living in the relative instability of rented accommodation. That's almost certainly true - I definitely had buying a home as a pre-requisite to starting a family (and I don't regret that decision). There's always going to be some babies, but it's the societal level fertility rate that will drop.

All those people for whom home ownership is just about in reach will delay starting a family. Those living in unsecure shared accomodation won't even consider it. It's pretty clear that fertility rates have fallen significantly in all western countries over the past decade.

Re:Why the government took home prices out of its main infla... by bell-cot on Friday May 27, 2022 @10:31AM (#31530086)
I think this is far more situational. ~20 years ago, the passably well-to-do apartment complex I was living in was (in some sections) absolutely crawling with children. Many of the units had sliding glass doors opening onto nice courtyards, it was a block or two off the main roads in a decent residential neighborhood, and there was a city park half a block away. If your unit fronted on one of those courtyards, you either liked the "all day, every day" noises of kids playing (and shrieking a fair amount), or else you moved.

OTOH, that apartment complex was designed and built ~1965 or so, when having kids was far more the American social norm. And their business model seemed carefully tuned to attracting longer-term renters.

Re:Why the government took home prices out of its main infla... by bombcar on Friday May 27, 2022 @11:48AM (#31530984)
> The point isn't that you can't start a family without owning a home (obviously that's untrue) but that many people won't want to start a family while living in the relative instability of rented accommodation.

The amusing part of it is that small children are the most amenable to moving, it's not until they're a bit older and getting into school that moving becomes a real problem for them.

Fertility rates are low enough that it can't be entirely ascribed to housing.

Re:Why the government took home prices out of its main infla... by BlargMcLarg on Friday May 27, 2022 @12:16PM (#31531323)
Most developed countries took a significant hit to fertility rates around 1970-1980 and stayed below replacement rate since then, fluctuating or dropping further down but never recovering well above replacement rate. I can think of a few things happening during those years, but "housing" wouldn't be a global one.
Re:Why the government took home prices out of its main infla... by PowerBar on Sunday May 29, 2022 @10:18PM (#31554903)
> The amusing part of it is that small children are the most amenable to moving, it's not until they're a bit older and getting into school that moving becomes a real problem for them.

Children are expensive. If you can't currently afford to buy a house and decide to have a child, the chances of you gaining enough wealth to afford one in the 4 to 6 years before your child reaches school age is practically nonexistent.

This means having a child while renting basically pushes your home ownership plans back by probably about a decade.

Re:Why the government took home prices out of its main infla... by pyuser583 on Friday May 27, 2022 @08:28PM (#31536469)
It seems weird that “preparation for a child” means owning your own home.

I never would have had kids if I waited that long.

I get that it’s perverse how we place so much of the cost of raising children in parents. At the same time, waiting until you’re “already established” is too much.

You may have had great reasons for doing this. But if this becomes a widely accepted expectation we are going to relying heavily on immigration.

Re:Why the government took home prices out of its main infla... by chii on Friday May 27, 2022 @10:11AM (#31529850)
> won't want to start a family while living in the relative instability of rented accommodation

it should be alleviated by making rental accommodation more stable - such as a longer term contract. What if you had a 30 year contract rental (with built-in, but known ahead of time increases).

Re:Why the government took home prices out of its main infla... by em-bee on Friday May 27, 2022 @10:33AM (#31530111)
in germany and austria time limited renting contracts are illegal. renting is always month to month, but landlords have no rights to evict anyone ever unless they do damage to the property or fail to pay their rent for at least a few months, and they still may have to sue to actually make the eviction stick. the only exception is landlords who only rent out a single home, and they can prove that they now need that home for themselves (or for their kids). these are not common though. most landlords are agencies that manage multiple properties.

so as long as you pay your rent and don't do anything illegal or damaging, you can't be evicted. the worst that can happen is a rise of the rent, but even that is often limited to not go beyond the average market rate for the area.

Re:Why the government took home prices out of its main infla... by ChuckNorris89 on Friday May 27, 2022 @11:39AM (#31530861)
>in germany and austria time limited renting contracts are illegal

No they're not illegal. In Austria you see time limited rental contracts all the time, usually 3 years. It's rare to find unlimited rental nowadays as landlords want to make money.

Re:Why the government took home prices out of its main infla... by em-bee on Friday May 27, 2022 @12:57PM (#31531866)
oh, sorry, i just looked it up. you are right. austria does allow time limited contracts. 3 years is the minimum, however. you can't have shorter time limits. also after the first year the tenant may terminate the contract any time (with 3 months advance notice), the landlord may not. and there is another interesting detail: time-limited contracts must be 25% less than comparable unlimited contracts. this however is rarely enforced unless the tenant notices. (they can get back overpaid rent for up to 10 years).

germany doesn't allow time limited contracts. there are only two exceptions. a time limited contract is allowed if the landlord can claim to need to use the property themselves after the end of the contract (which they can only do if they don't have multiple properties to rent), or if they have plans to tear down or renovate the building.

Re:Why the government took home prices out of its main infla... by ChuckNorris89 on Friday May 27, 2022 @01:03PM (#31531945)
Yeah, but finding a decent place to rent in Germany is the real problem.

It's nearly impossible as everyone is locked into their rental units and will never move.

You basically have to wait for someone to die.

Re:Why the government took home prices out of its main infla... by em-bee on Friday May 27, 2022 @01:30PM (#31532291)
but that's a problem everywhere that doesn't build enough new units to meet the demand. and i don't think it is any easier to buy a place. nor is it any easier to find a place to rent in the US.
Re:Why the government took home prices out of its main infla... by ChuckNorris89 on Friday May 27, 2022 @02:21PM (#31532944)
Sorry but no, it IS much easier to find a place to rent in the US.

In Germany, the scarcity is so high that realtors can afford to ghost you left and right despite you having money and then when you finally get to view an apartment there's like 80+ people viewing it and only the one with the best portfolio (full of your private info that they normally shouldn't be allowed to have) gets it. This madness is nowhere near what it's like in the US.

Re:Why the government took home prices out of its main infla... by carlisle_ on Friday May 27, 2022 @10:18AM (#31529930)
That’s just a mortgage with extra steps…
Re:Why the government took home prices out of its main infla... by chii on Friday May 27, 2022 @10:25AM (#31530019)
not the same - a mortgage require a deposit. Renting will be cheaper, because a deposit is basically a capital cost (that people comparing renting and buying don't take into account).
Re:Why the government took home prices out of its main infla... by lazide on Friday May 27, 2022 @10:50AM (#31530304)
A common problem with rent control (can’t raise rent to match market) in cities is the landlord stops doing maintenance or starts moving in folks who are dangerous or threatening to tenants to get them to leave.
Re:Why the government took home prices out of its main infla... by everybodyknows on Sunday May 29, 2022 @12:45PM (#31550535)
> starts moving in folks who are dangerous or threatening to tenants to get them to leave

Seems a high risk, desperate maneuver. What's the end-game for the landlord? A building full of drug dealers, in perpetuity? Keeping maintenance up to city code could be a burden, and the insurance company might start to get wise.

Re:Why the government took home prices out of its main infla... by lazide on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @11:58AM (#31583823)
Usually the dangerous folks are people on the payroll, and the end game is selling the property to someone else to be turned into something higher end once the normal tenants are out.

Sometimes it’s just to have tenant churn to allow them to get higher rents. Rent control for long periods of time can cause very large disparities between current market rents and what a tenant is paying (thousands/mo). The dangerous folks aren’t usually obvious when first checking out a unit.

At least in NYC, there is a lot of reputed Mafia involvement in real estate.

Re:Why the government took home prices out of its main infla... by lumost on Friday May 27, 2022 @09:52AM (#31529641)
Having started a family recently, there is a strong instinct to move towards more secure foundations. While you may have had a lot of flexibility to scrimp expenses without children, you can't just up and move to cheaper acommodations in a less desirable school district/neighborhood/or longer commute.

Owning a home presents a long-term hedge against financial instability. Due to zoning and other factors, it's often not possible to live in areas which are "good" for children without owning a home. My particular neighborhood in a major city has low cost/quality rentals for college aged folks, reasonable subsidized housing options, and condos. If one were to rent without subsidy for a family, they would likely be pushed into a luxury unit and pay an unreasonable and highly inflationary sum.

Re:Why the government took home prices out of its main infla... by dont__panic on Friday May 27, 2022 @09:52AM (#31529639)
High housing prices == high rental prices == people living in smaller spaces == people deciding to have fewer or no kids because they don't have the space (or money).

Of course, plenty of people start families without solid economic footing. But it's a bit harder to invent space out of thin air than it is to take on debt.

Re:Why the government took home prices out of its main infla... by lupire on Friday May 27, 2022 @12:25PM (#31531425)
How big was the house your grandmother lived in with 5 siblings? Less than 1500sqft

Houses are something like more than double the size they were just 40 years ago, and families are smaller.

Re:Why the government took home prices out of its main infla... by dont__panic on Friday May 27, 2022 @12:38PM (#31531577)
Oh, it's definitely possible to raise a large family with small square footage. My grandparents raised my father in a 3 bedroom house that can't be more than 1500 square feet. And my dad has 6 siblings!

It does depend on what families are willing to put up with, though. I'm not sure many of my millenial peers want to raise 7 kids in a 1500 square foot house. It's important not to ask what's physically possible, but instead what's probable given societal expectations.

Re:Why the government took home prices out of its main infla... by s1artibartfast on Friday May 27, 2022 @12:46PM (#31531696)
Yeah I think you can't ignore the last part about expectations. I think younger Generations are just less willing to compromise on lifestyle to have children. The social institutions that made it much more attractive are crumbling. One obvious one of the churches, and the other is local community. It's one thing to want to have kids when all of your friends are doing it and you live together and can raise them together. Many of these communities are going away
Re:Why the government took home prices out of its main infla... by antifa on Saturday May 28, 2022 @11:21PM (#31546063)
Last time I was shopping for houses 1500sqft homes were rarely more than $5k cheaper than equivalent 2000sqft houses.
Re:Why the government took home prices out of its main infla... by 01100011 on Friday May 27, 2022 @10:31AM (#31530092)
Anecdotal: my wife and I are waiting for a home to start a family. We're not even going to stop contraception until we move in. The second we do, we'll start trying.

Fortunately it looks like a 10% correction is all we need, and, fingers crossed, it looks to be coming.

Re:Why the government took home prices out of its main infla... by dragonwriter on Friday May 27, 2022 @11:52AM (#31531046)
> Anecdotal: my wife and I are waiting for a home to start a family

Sure, some people do that, but there are race and economic class biases to it, and both the races and economic classes biased to it are shrinking as a share of the population.

Re:Why the government took home prices out of its main infla... by ihattendorf on Friday May 27, 2022 @01:16PM (#31532105)
What are you going to do if the 10% correction comes after prices have increased 15%?
Re:Why the government took home prices out of its main infla... by cko on Friday May 27, 2022 @11:25PM (#31537343)
Or there's a 10% correction, only because mortgage rates have increased your interest payment by 10%.
Re:Why the government took home prices out of its main infla... by onlyrealcuzzo on Friday May 27, 2022 @09:55AM (#31529678)
Source?

The VAST majority of non-single parent families in the US still alive today owned a home.

Maybe current trends are different since home ownership rates are low in young people. But family formation rates are also lower than normal.

Re:Why the government took home prices out of its main infla... by dragonwriter on Friday May 27, 2022 @11:50AM (#31531029)
Majority homeownership is a post-1950s thing in the US, corresponding with the beginning of the big drop in the fertility rate; the (temporary) late 1980s surge in homeownership corresponded to the start of the big drop in family formation; the recent drop is from an extremely short term spike and is still above where the late-1980s surge started.

While at any given time homeowners may be more likely than their age-peer contemporaries to start families, aggregate homeownership rates don't show any sign of being a positive contributor to family formation.