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Re:The Collison Brothers Built Stripe into a $95B Unicorn by notfromhere on Friday May 27, 2022 @12:10AM (#31525944)
By its nature, you get more value out of an employee than you pay in wages. Otherwise, there would be no point to hiring anyone.
Re:The Collison Brothers Built Stripe into a $95B Unicorn by jollofricepeas on Friday May 27, 2022 @01:14AM (#31526213)
Exactly.

Fundamentally, tech workers don’t seem to understand this point mainly because they are making more money than “everyone else.”

The other reason is that we as humans don’t understand big numbers. Big ape brains can’t understand the gap between $1 million and $1 billion let alone 100 billion.

If software engineers would have banded together a long time ago to get a larger piece of the pie like professional athletes, then….

- Senior engineers would make NFL wages

- And quants would be making NBA/NFL wages

Re:The Collison Brothers Built Stripe into a $95B Unicorn by edanm on Friday May 27, 2022 @01:41AM (#31526351)
> - Senior engineers would make NFL wages

That is an absurd exaggeration, unless by "senior engineers" you are including people who do a lot more than "just" engineering, e.g. build companies, build products, etc.

The reason NFL wages are so high is not just that they bring in a lot of money, it's that the players are to a large extent irreplaceable. If you take the, say, 500 most talented players in the US at a given time, you can't just replace them with the next 500 most talented players and get the same outcome. So each of them commands a very large salary - because the alternatives are worse, and will lead to worse outcomes, which will lead to less money for the team.

And at the top end, the best players are a massive draw that makes teams tons of money.

Compare that to engineers. We are, to a much larger extent, replaceable. If Amazon can't hire the 1000 "best" engineers, going to the next 1000 will probably not noticeably impact their product. I'm not denying that there are talent differentials between engineers - I think it's even more than the commonly cited 10x. But it's still not that big, definitely not bigger than the difference in NFL players (since engineering is not competitive.)

Note that if you stretch the definition of software engineer to include people building and launching brand new products, building huge successful teams, etc, then you're getting into the realm of CTOs, CEOs, founders, etc, which are far less replaceable (I'm a good engineer, but I couldn't have built Stripe). But then we're talking about the people who are adequately compensated for their work.

Re:The Collison Brothers Built Stripe into a $95B Unicorn by xmprt on Friday May 27, 2022 @02:53AM (#31526737)
> If you take the, say, 500 most talented players in the US at a given time, you can't just replace them with the next 500 most talented players and get the same outcome

I genuinely believe that a league made of the 500-1000 rank players would be just as (or at least almost as) entertaining as one with the top 500 players. Relative rank is what matters and it's why NCAA March Madness is so popular despite being made up of relatively low ranked players.

Re:The Collison Brothers Built Stripe into a $95B Unicorn by philwelch on Friday May 27, 2022 @01:59PM (#31532661)
> I genuinely believe that a league made of the 500-1000 rank players would be just as (or at least almost as) entertaining as one with the top 500 players.

This is a popular enough theory that it's been tested multiple times. In the successful cases, the rival league still ended up trying to poach the top players and ended up merging with the other top league. In the less successful cases, the league went out of business.

Re:The Collison Brothers Built Stripe into a $95B Unicorn by edanm on Friday May 27, 2022 @04:31PM (#31534521)
Absolutely. I think it's worth thinking through the difference to software - because it's a competitive field, as you said, the relative rank matters, and therefore getting the best player is important for your team, unless they are for some reason no longer playing. E.g. Michael Jordan was a huge draw when he was playing, and made his team relatively better off (and the league as a whole).

In software, that's not the way it works. Or at least, the competitive business aspect of it is largely out of engineer's hands. Few businesses ultimately succeed because they wrote better code, IMO. Though interestingly, a bunch of startups only get big in the first place by having great code that allows them great speed/flexibility/etc. Stripe itself got big originally because its API was really great, which I'd attribute more to product than to engineers, except in this case it's kind of a merger of the two.

Re:The Collison Brothers Built Stripe into a $95B Unicorn by listenallyall on Saturday May 28, 2022 @01:32PM (#31542135)
The AFL, WFL, USFL, XFL, AAFL, 2nd XFL and 2nd USFL would likely disagree.

"March Madness" is an anomaly, a single-elimination tournament with 48 games in one weekend with a history of upsets and buzzer-beaters. Additionally, college basketball and football in the US benefit greatly from the local and alumni network affinity for the programs, that doesn't exist with, say, minor league baseball or the NBA D-League.

Re:The Collison Brothers Built Stripe into a $95B Unicorn by philwelch on Sunday May 29, 2022 @03:15PM (#31551948)
We also have a third XFL coming soon!

The AFL was actually relatively successful since it forced a merger with the NFL. Meanwhile, at least according to a 30 for 30 documentary, the original USFL had a potentially viable niche as a second-tier spring league for awhile until they made the bizarre decision to switch to the fall football season and try to force an NFL merger.

Re:The Collison Brothers Built Stripe into a $95B Unicorn by xmprt on Sunday May 29, 2022 @05:51PM (#31553235)
I mean that if the NFL didn't exist then the AFL would be popular. A better example would be Japanese Baseball. A lot of those players are great but very few of them ended up transferring to the American leagues, yet the sport is still extremely popular in Japan.
Re:The Collison Brothers Built Stripe into a $95B Unicorn by sumedh on Friday May 27, 2022 @05:25AM (#31527594)
> And at the top end, the best players are a massive draw that makes teams tons of money.

What is so special about them?

Re:The Collison Brothers Built Stripe into a $95B Unicorn by specialist on Friday May 27, 2022 @08:49PM (#31536580)
> The reason NFL wages are so high is...

...because they formed unions.

Re:The Collison Brothers Built Stripe into a $95B Unicorn by edanm on Saturday May 28, 2022 @02:50AM (#31538159)
Doctors also have a union and for the most part aren't making nfl wages.

I don't understand what makes people think that software engineers are so valuable that they'd get wages that are multiples of doctors.

Re:The Collison Brothers Built Stripe into a $95B Unicorn by specialist on Saturday May 28, 2022 @09:12AM (#31540073)
Scarcity is not necessary for leverage. Preventing defectors from collective bargaining is.

The Logic of Collective Action explains the mechanics. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Logic_of_Collective_Action

It's basically game theory, by another name.

Re:The Collison Brothers Built Stripe into a $95B Unicorn by philwelch on Sunday May 29, 2022 @03:12PM (#31551927)
> Scarcity is not necessary for leverage. Preventing defectors from collective bargaining is.

"Preventing defectors from collective bargaining" is also, more or less, the definition of what an economic cartel does.

Re:The Collison Brothers Built Stripe into a $95B Unicorn by notfromhere on Sunday June 12, 2022 @01:14PM (#31716201)
Companies are an economic cartel for capital, but we’ve don’t take their existence as a controversy
Re:The Collison Brothers Built Stripe into a $95B Unicorn by thrixton on Friday May 27, 2022 @08:53AM (#31529022)
I doubt this to be honest.

If you could hire 2 or 5 of the next best engineers for the price of a top pick 'NFL' engineer, you'd be ahead in output in most situations.

The same does not go for the NFL.

Re:The Collison Brothers Built Stripe into a $95B Unicorn by izgzhen on Friday May 27, 2022 @04:12AM (#31527204)
While senior engineers don’t make NFL wages, the executives do (including some former senior engineers). Would it be fair to compare execs to NFL player instead? (While engineers are those work behind the scene to support the game)
Re:The Collison Brothers Built Stripe into a $95B Unicorn by kortilla on Friday May 27, 2022 @01:50AM (#31526389)
You used that employee’s labor in conjunction with a bunch of other things to produce more value than the wages. If the value was in just the work alone and not the work directed at the right things in the right environment, there would be no point in working for Amazon and you could just collect the entire revenue yourself.

This is the main reason it’s completely illogical to expect that an employee receive most of the revenue their labor helped generate.

Re:The Collison Brothers Built Stripe into a $95B Unicorn by tjs8rj on Friday May 27, 2022 @02:25AM (#31526584)
This is the answer and why the labor theory of value tends to fall flat without due consideration to the labor of managers and the cumulative returns of labor.

If your work earns $100k/y in revenue for a company, that doesn't mean your work created it entirely. The continued dividends of organization of the company, customer acquisition, legal apparatus, support of your entire organization made that revenue possible and are entitled to a share of it too. It took a village to make that revenue, unless it didn't, in which case: quit and do it yourself to keep all that money.

This is a self-correcting system that ensures everyone gets paid approximately what they contributed.

Re:The Collison Brothers Built Stripe into a $95B Unicorn by tsimionescu on Friday May 27, 2022 @03:42AM (#31527028)
While you're right that you have to account for the entire organization, not just the engineers (obviously), the gap between what the owners earn compared to all other employees combined is still wildly disproportionate.

It's of course hard to precisely quantify these things, but the worsening gap between worker and owner incomes is quite obviously not proportional to any change in how much value owners add to a corporation compared to workers (if anything, workers' contribution has been increasing, not decreasing, as productivity tools and techniques have been advancing).

Re:The Collison Brothers Built Stripe into a $95B Unicorn by tjs8rj on Friday May 27, 2022 @11:00AM (#31530405)
This same argument also applies to owners. If the org makes $100k in revenue and the owners take $10k of that, why don't you just leave to start your own firm and keep it all?

It's because there ARE contributions from the owner, even a passive owner has what I called "dividends from stored labor": they took on the risk, created a functioning company solving a problem, did the work of organizing the systems/structure that run the thing, and so they are entitled to a piece of the revenue as well (as that revenue couldn't have been earned without their contributions either).

Re:The Collison Brothers Built Stripe into a $95B Unicorn by tsimionescu on Friday May 27, 2022 @11:49AM (#31530999)
No one says that owners are not entitled to a piece of the revenue, obviously they are, and doubly so when they are also doing their own work for the company.

My point was that owners currently get a disproportionately large piece, and that the gap between what owners get vs what workers get has been widening with time. And not only is it widening, but it is doing so while the relative contributions to the business' success are often narrowing (give the huge increases in worker productivity in most domains).

Re:The Collison Brothers Built Stripe into a $95B Unicorn by philwelch on Sunday May 29, 2022 @03:21PM (#31552013)
You're not taking risk premium into account. Owners run the risk of working for several years and getting absolutely nothing in return. Sometimes they put their own money into the company and never get it back.
Re:The Collison Brothers Built Stripe into a $95B Unicorn by kareemsabri on Friday May 27, 2022 @05:23AM (#31527583)
No, on AVERAGE you get more value out of each employee than you pay in wages, if you turn a profit (let's put aside investing in growth / VC funding for simplicity). That's how you stay in business. That does not mean for each employee you are efficiently paying them based on the value created for the business, some may be underpaid and some grossly overpaid.
Re:The Collison Brothers Built Stripe into a $95B Unicorn by philwelch on Friday May 27, 2022 @01:44PM (#31532466)
By its nature, the employee's wages are more valuable to them than the time and effort they are expending on the job. Otherwise, there would be no point to working.

What's happening here is gains from trade. I have a lot of free time and a set of skills, while my employer has a lot of money and the willingness to shoulder the risk that the work they're asking me to do won't be profitable for them in the long run. Both sides get something out of the deal.

Re:The Collison Brothers Built Stripe into a $95B Unicorn by CryptoBanker on Friday May 27, 2022 @02:37PM (#31533158)
On average that is true, but certainly employees who make minimum wage contribute a higher percentage of their salary than someone who earns 6 digits, to the point that the weapon who earns 6 digits may actually come out ahead depending on how many employees there are
Re:The Collison Brothers Built Stripe into a $95B Unicorn by oh_sigh on Friday May 27, 2022 @02:44AM (#31526691)
On average, yes, but any given employee may be a net negative and not really earn their keep.
Re:The Collison Brothers Built Stripe into a $95B Unicorn by rob74 on Friday May 27, 2022 @05:12AM (#31527538)
Well, from what I hear, Amazon has several methods in place to quickly "weed out" these employees (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Amazon#Treatment_...). Gotta make sure that wealth keeps flowing smoothly from the bottom to the top...
Re:The Collison Brothers Built Stripe into a $95B Unicorn by throw123123123 on Sunday May 29, 2022 @03:31PM (#31552094)
At the same time, the proposal has to be better than what others companies offer, or nobody would accept the position.