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Re:Microsoft Opens New HQ in Toronto by __turbobrew__ on Tuesday May 17, 2022 @02:08AM (#31406590)
Yea I’m surprised how little Microsoft pays in Vancouver according to levels.fyi.

If an American company paid 80% of American salary to Canadians they would have their pick of Canada’s top talent. This slowly appears to be happening with Meta jobs in Canada.

Canada has the same time zones, a similar culture, is geographically close, the same language, and excellent computer science/engineering programs.

What Canada doesn’t have is a strong venture capital pool, a culture of risk taking, or a domestic market of 330 million people which stifles new businesses.

Re:Microsoft Opens New HQ in Toronto by cryptoz on Tuesday May 17, 2022 @02:11AM (#31406609)
> What Canada doesn’t have is a strong venture capital pool, a culture of risk taking

I tried to raise a ~$300k seed round in Toronto in 2014. Most Canadian investors we met with wanted to see us have something like $10k/month in recurring revenue before considering an investment. We spent a week in SF and left with a $250k offer at a $4M valuation, when we were pre-revenue!

(We declined, and eventually our business failed (acquhired by a team in SF, though....). But still. Wow! What a difference!)

Re:Microsoft Opens New HQ in Toronto by nowherebeen on Tuesday May 17, 2022 @02:54AM (#31406872)
I haven’t seen any other country that tries new things and willing to spent than the US. That includes Europe and Asia. It’s quite disappointing really because the world is so much bigger than the US alone.
Re:Microsoft Opens New HQ in Toronto by ChuckNorris89 on Tuesday May 17, 2022 @03:05AM (#31406945)
>I haven’t seen any other country that tries new things and willing to spent than the US

The US owns the money printer to the world trade currency (USD), and has the military force to defend this unique position, so of course it can afford to outspend everyone else.

Re:Microsoft Opens New HQ in Toronto by TMWNN on Tuesday May 17, 2022 @03:41AM (#31407194)
I wish the legions who, in online discussions of the US dollar (or almost anything US foreign policy/military-related), always bring up how the US dollar/economy's strength is based on the "petrodollar" (you didn't say it, but that's what you were thinking of), how the US goes to war to preserve the dollar's role as a reserve currency, how Russia/China/Saudi Arabia can cause the dollar to crash by using another currency, etc., would actually think about what they're arguing about.

No, kids, if Saudi Arabia suddenly started selling all its oil in Euros or Yen on renminbi, the US would not send the Sixth Fleet off its shore, any more than it did so to force KSA to use the US dollar to price its wares in the first place. Saudis (and Russians, and Chinese, and everyone else) use the US dollar because they find that a) using it is more convenient than another hard currency like the Swiss franc or British pound, and b) no one else wants riyals, rubles, or renminbi.

Re:Microsoft Opens New HQ in Toronto by hahaxdxd123 on Tuesday May 17, 2022 @04:14AM (#31407413)
This is not necessarily some petro-dollar argument. Individuals in other countries and their central banks want to save or hold USD in reserve for a variety of reasons (local currency inflation, exchange rates, etc). They buy dollar denominated bonds. This essentially allows the US massive access to credit which can fund these sorts of ventures.

I can make the same argument without mentioning the military - we benefit from a virtuous cycle of having the most dynamic economy which allows us access to credit to improve it, making it even more dynamic, and we simply pay it back as a lesser share of % GDP later.

Re:Microsoft Opens New HQ in Toronto by lIl-IIIl on Tuesday May 17, 2022 @03:17AM (#31407031)
That may be relevant to the US government, but the investors that would invest in startups don't have access to that printer.
Re:Microsoft Opens New HQ in Toronto by ChuckNorris89 on Tuesday May 17, 2022 @03:21AM (#31407065)
VC firms, investment banks, etc. are all suckling from the same FED teat, and all this cash trickles down into the US tech sector/start-up scene.
Re:Microsoft Opens New HQ in Toronto by refurb on Tuesday May 17, 2022 @06:55AM (#31408599)
Not really. VC are investing institutional money. Institutions in the US are willing to invest in "private-equity venture capital". Hell, even CALPERS does.

It has nothing to do with the federal reserve and everything to do with risk tolerence.

Re:Microsoft Opens New HQ in Toronto by raverbashing on Tuesday May 17, 2022 @03:36AM (#31407154)
No kidding

The Canadian risk/reward curve is weird. They won't look at anything barely promising but will go "all in" once it hits a bit of traction (even if the business model is wonky)

Re:Microsoft Opens New HQ in Toronto by tdudzik on Tuesday May 17, 2022 @05:15AM (#31407834)
So after all they were right and didn't lose ~$300k?
Re:Microsoft Opens New HQ in Toronto by cryptoz on Tuesday May 17, 2022 @05:41AM (#31408050)
I dunno about that. Most of the team was "very Canadian" and didn't want to move to California - the main reason we rejected the SF deal (I was the only one who accepted in full the acquihire, the team did not move in the end). $300k, staying in Canada, would have gone a long way to providing a stronger team cohesion at the time. Maybe we would have succeeded.

Also, we were near completing a $10k/month enterprise deal but didn't have the runway to finish those sales in time. Additionally, we had Government of Canada contracts at $3k/month in the pipeline, which we did eventually complete. Our software was running on millions of phones, we had enterprise pipeline deals, signed government contracts (hard to come by I hear!) and a darn good team.

Hard to say how it would have played out, but, what's clear to me is that it wasn't clear that the $300k would have been lost.

Re:Microsoft Opens New HQ in Toronto by tdudzik on Tuesday May 17, 2022 @06:07AM (#31408248)
Thanks for the context! It actually seems like something worth taking the risk, too bad it didn't played out better
Re:Microsoft Opens New HQ in Toronto by ChuckNorris89 on Tuesday May 17, 2022 @03:03AM (#31406937)
>What Canada doesn’t have is a strong venture capital pool, a culture of risk taking, or a domestic market of 330 million people which stifles new businesses.

Replace Canada with EU and it's the same.

Re:Microsoft Opens New HQ in Toronto by tdrgabi on Tuesday May 17, 2022 @03:52AM (#31407270)
You still have the timezone issue, which is a problem
Re:Microsoft Opens New HQ in Toronto by maccard on Tuesday May 17, 2022 @05:16AM (#31407852)
The timezone issue is as much of a problem as you make it. The difference between the east coast and the UK is 5 hours - the difference between East and West coast is 3 hours. Both of those are very roughly in the ballpark of "half a workday overlapping".
Re:Microsoft Opens New HQ in Toronto by johnebgd on Tuesday May 17, 2022 @06:14AM (#31408291)
That’s a big problem for a 9-5 culture company in the USA.
Re:Microsoft Opens New HQ in Toronto by maccard on Tuesday May 17, 2022 @06:21AM (#31408347)
By that logic they can't even work from east to west coast then.
Re:Microsoft Opens New HQ in Toronto by what_ever on Tuesday May 17, 2022 @06:37PM (#31417100)
I am not sure how your clock works but 9-5 work hours will have 5 hours common between the East and the West coast.
Re:Microsoft Opens New HQ in Toronto by Cthulhu_ on Tuesday May 17, 2022 @08:13AM (#31409334)
It's only a problem if the US and EU sides need to work closely together; most tech companies will have multiple products that can be built independently. IIRC Google Docs is mainly built and maintained in Germany.
Re:Microsoft Opens New HQ in Toronto by substation13 on Tuesday May 17, 2022 @03:52AM (#31407269)
I was going to say UK!
Re:Microsoft Opens New HQ in Toronto by ChuckNorris89 on Tuesday May 17, 2022 @04:19AM (#31407442)
I doubt it, London tech wages, especially in the City, beat everything else in the EU.
Re:Microsoft Opens New HQ in Toronto by mejutoco on Tuesday May 17, 2022 @07:03AM (#31408652)
In my experience London tech wages are not specially high unless they are linked to finance. IMHO Switzerland salaries are the highest in EU (although cost of living there is very high).
Re:Microsoft Opens New HQ in Toronto by maccard on Tuesday May 17, 2022 @05:13AM (#31407820)
And are still lower than most places in the US.
Re:Microsoft Opens New HQ in Toronto by fnord123 on Tuesday May 17, 2022 @05:31AM (#31407971)
I dont have enough karma to reply to my sibling comment:

> Sure, but let's compare apples to apples (UK to EU) as US is unique in being the world leading economy.

EU has a higher GDP than the US and is therefore the world leading economy.

Re:Microsoft Opens New HQ in Toronto by ChuckNorris89 on Tuesday May 17, 2022 @05:40AM (#31408046)
The EU is not a single united market like the US is.

Sure, you can bunch the countries together and get high GDP number but that's not an Apples to apples comparison with the US as every EU country has it's own completely different languages, economy, political and economic agenda, culture, market, legal and tax system, and local issues plus high levels off autonomy from the EU.

The EU is not the United States of Europe therefore cannot compete with the US toe to toe as it's not 300 million people speaking the same language and having the same culture and laws, but 300 million people spread across 27 countries, speaking 24 official languages, with little overlap in laws and culture from end to end, that's why there are no successful software giants that came out of Europe and there's no EU military.

Re:Microsoft Opens New HQ in Toronto by maccard on Tuesday May 17, 2022 @05:58AM (#31408180)
> The EU is not a single united market like the US is

The US is not a single united market. Each state has it's own economy, political and economic agenda, culture, market, legal and taxes, and local issues.

> that's why there are no successful software giants that came out of Europe.

this is just false. There are plenty of succesful european software giants , and there are numerous "unicorns" too; Spotify being the textbook example. There's an absolutely booming video games industry, Fintech and crypto (not my thing but can't argue there's no money in it) have very very solid bases across the EU too.

There's no single reason as to why the US has a stronger software market than the EU, but I would put money on it being "it's where the money already is".

Re:Microsoft Opens New HQ in Toronto by ChuckNorris89 on Tuesday May 17, 2022 @06:40AM (#31408491)
What I took form your reply is that you don't understand the difference between how the US and EU differ economically, culturally and politically and what impact that has on the EU vs US tech sectors, nor are you willing to listen to arguments, yet you insist there's no difference between the US and the EU.

Therefore to end the argument here and save my sanity, I'll stop replying to you. Have a good day sir.

Re:Microsoft Opens New HQ in Toronto by fnord123 on Tuesday May 17, 2022 @06:00AM (#31408195)
> The EU is not a single united market like the US is.

You made the comparison between US and EU, so it's in play. QED.

Re:Microsoft Opens New HQ in Toronto by ChuckNorris89 on Tuesday May 17, 2022 @06:41AM (#31408498)
I compared them to show they're not in the same ballpark. But whatever, you pick what you want to hear.
Re:Microsoft Opens New HQ in Toronto by tpush on Tuesday May 17, 2022 @05:52AM (#31408133)
?? No it's not. The US's GDP is higher than the EU's and per-capita massively so.
Re:Microsoft Opens New HQ in Toronto by fnord123 on Tuesday May 17, 2022 @06:00AM (#31408190)
EU ~16t, US ~15t
Re:Microsoft Opens New HQ in Toronto by ChuckNorris89 on Tuesday May 17, 2022 @05:24AM (#31407902)
Sure, but let's compare apples to apples (UK to EU) as US is unique in being the world leading economy.
Re:Microsoft Opens New HQ in Toronto by throw0101a on Tuesday May 17, 2022 @07:13AM (#31408732)
> Canada has […] the same language

Just don't open an office in the province of Quebec:

* https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/protest-montreal-bil...

* https://montrealgazette.com/news/local-news/breaking-down-th...

Re:Microsoft Opens New HQ in Toronto by 2143 on Tuesday May 17, 2022 @10:17PM (#31418567)
> If an American company paid 80% of American salary to Canadians they would have their pick of Canada’s top talent.

I thought top talent Canadians who want high salaries just moved to the US :)

(Of course, this could be because such high salaries aren't offered in Canada.)