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Re:I'm a fucking webmaster (2016) by SkipperCat on Monday May 09, 2022 @08:04AM (#31313103)
Back in the early 2000's, I taught "computers" to a bunch of kids in DC. I first started off with how a computer work; IO, CPU, storage and their eyes glazed over.

I quickly ditched that topic and went right to building a web page. Taught them a few HTML tags and they instantly became "webmasters". They were so thrilled. They could create blinking text, could make all the fonts pink. All just by moving around some simple text in NotePad.

Most importantly, they were creating things that they thought were only able to be created by "scientists". I loved how it boosted their own self worth.

I've stopped teaching a long time ago. Not sure if there's still tools out there where a 13 year old kid with no technical experience can immediately get gratification with something so simple on a computer. Maybe it is a time gone by.

Re:I'm a fucking webmaster (2016) by LecroJS on Monday May 09, 2022 @10:48AM (#31314719)
I tutor kids in my free time from ages 4 up to college. I find that Processing/p5.js is a great tool for teaching younger kids how to use their imagination through the vessel of built-in functions + tweaking arguments to instantly see their input on the canvas in the form of bright, flashy colors/shapes. It requires a much more hands on approach and can really only be done well in 1 on 1 settings. While I wish there was a way for me to be less of a navigator in terms of the amount of code that goes on the screen, I have come to find that kids are generally exceptional at pattern recognition. Even my student that is 4 (although he’s a smart kid) is capable of writing his own scripts now without much guidance in his logic/syntax. I had my own start with micro worlds as a kid, and played with netlogo in a college class. That made me a staunch supporter of kids getting into code through agent/turtle based environments
Re:I'm a fucking webmaster (2016) by JacobThreeThree on Monday May 09, 2022 @01:28PM (#31317060)
I agree, Processing/p5.js is great for beginner programming.
Re:I'm a fucking webmaster (2016) by sirl1on on Monday May 09, 2022 @09:54AM (#31314010)
> Not sure if there's still tools out there where a 13 year old kid with no technical experience can immediately get gratification with something so simple on a computer.

Lego MindStorms! There's a lab at my local university filled with Lego and basic robot sensors/actuators. Schools and other community clubs can book one-time or regular workshops.

What fascinates me the most is the adaptability to the students' abilities. Young students can do "block based programming", telling the robot what to do with very simple command blocks that connect to each other. With rising profession, advanced blocks can be made available that are more powerful, resembling software control structures. New sensors can be used and robots are built by the students themselves instead of prebuilt. At some point, you can ditch the graphical block based programming and show the generated Java code and introduce the students to basic software development.

Re:I'm a fucking webmaster (2016) by 0_____0 on Monday May 09, 2022 @10:10AM (#31314191)
My first experience of programming was walking up to an Apple II in grade school (this was in the 2000s, those were some old machines) and punching in code listing from a book. The machines didn't do anything when you powered them on, just waited for you to enter code or commands. It was so simple, and it just begged you to start writing programs.

Now people talk about getting their kids started with programming, and end up talking about raspberry pis and Linux distros and whatnot. Granted the tools now are so much more powerful, and a determined kid can write a best selling iPhone app, but there's something wonderful about a machine that shows up to you as a blank slate, awaiting instruction.

Re:I'm a fucking webmaster (2016) by piva00 on Tuesday May 10, 2022 @04:30AM (#31324815)
Same way I got interested in programming, except instead of an Apple II (which was prohibitively expensive and rare in Brazil with import substitution in the 90s) I had access to my dad's Gradiente MSX and manuals for BASIC.

When you boot up a MSX it was the same: a straight command line waiting for inputs, learning to command that was quite magical for 8 year-old me and my intro to programming in general.

Re:I'm a fucking webmaster (2016) by shagie on Monday May 09, 2022 @10:23AM (#31314363)
> The machines didn't do anything when you powered them on, just waited for you to enter code or commands.

I am reminded of the old Kids React videos (which themselves are now nearly a decade old)... Kids React to Technology (an old Apple ][+) https://youtu.be/PF7EpEnglgk

Re:I'm a fucking webmaster (2016) by edenlinger on Tuesday May 10, 2022 @11:34AM (#31328361)
Similar story but newer hardware. I was given a machine built with left over parts from the IT company my did did sales for. Booted right to the CLI. I was given a giant red hat manual and told to have fun. It was awesome.
Re:I'm a fucking webmaster (2016) by rchaud on Monday May 09, 2022 @12:14PM (#31315984)
At some point in 2013 I watched Lecture 1 of Harvard CS50 because everybody said that was the best starting point for people interested in web dev, product development, tech in general.

I just wanted to make a website to start off with, just a bunch of linked pages. I already knew a tiny bit of HTML from college, but that was years ago and I wanted to know what had changed. So you can imagine my confusion watching that CS50 lecture as it was seemingly covering everything EXCEPT the stuff non-technical end users are familiar with: websites, apps and games.

Yes, yes, I now know that CS isn't about coding but about underlying fundamentals. But that doesn't change the reality that CS50 online has been viewed many, many more times than people who've sat in a CS class, and those people likely had similarly simple goals as I did.

Long story short however, I took a video course on webdev and learned far more in terms of immediately applicable skills. Again, I wasn't trying to get hired at FAANG. I just wanted to get to the level of 'webmaster', where I knew just enough to handle markup, hosting, SSL and CRUD functions. Learning by doing has been far more rewarding than following online courses.

Re:I'm a fucking webmaster (2016) by extra88 on Monday May 09, 2022 @12:36PM (#31316328)
> I watched Lecture 1 of Harvard CS50 because everybody said that was the best starting point for people interested in web dev, product development, tech in general.

That was not good advice. CS50 is an excellent, introductory, survey CS course but it's still a CS course.

Re:I'm a fucking webmaster (2016) by rchaud on Monday May 09, 2022 @04:57PM (#31319638)
Most advice aimed at absolute beginners is bad, because the questions are bad. E.g. "what's the best programming language?"

You and I may know that the question is a bad one, but beginners don't know that. And when they ask, they aren't told to rephrase the question as "What would I like to build?" Someone will just say "well I know Javascript and...." and it goes from there.

Re:I'm a fucking webmaster (2016) by bryanlarsen on Monday May 09, 2022 @09:46AM (#31313925)
> Not sure if there's still tools out there where a 13 year old kid with no technical experience can immediately get gratification with something so simple on a computer.

I can't answer that for a 13 year old, but I can for an 8 year old. Minecraft. The elaborate stuff my daughter built at that age is way more gratifying than anything I could have built as an 8 year old.

Re:I'm a fucking webmaster (2016) by Steltek on Monday May 09, 2022 @10:08AM (#31314164)
My then-5yo built rollercoasters single handed. I helped embellish it with trigger driven fireworks and other stuff for some combo quality time and screen time. Minecraft is such a perfect game for little kids and it works "offline" pretty well.
Re:I'm a fucking webmaster (2016) by multiplegeorges on Monday May 09, 2022 @11:07AM (#31315034)
Glitch (https://glitch.com) is the closest thing I can think of right now.
Re:I'm a fucking webmaster (2016) by fartcannon on Monday May 09, 2022 @08:18AM (#31313188)
You can still just use HTML.
Re:I'm a fucking webmaster (2016) by jerf on Monday May 09, 2022 @09:10AM (#31313576)
This does indeed work fine. The major problem is still finding somewhere to host it, and incurring the still non-trivial risks thereto, since among the many things students want to do with free web space, hosting warez and other things that will get you in trouble quickly is still pretty far up the list. Plus someone has to pay for a domain name or something.

If you can get a modern text editor that can use SSH or something to mount a remote directory you can easily have an HTML party like it's 1999. That's easier than ever. But the surrounding issues are worse than they were in 1999, unfortunately.

Re:I'm a fucking webmaster (2016) by eli on Monday May 09, 2022 @09:20AM (#31313661)
It's never been easier to host a webpage than it is today. You can host 100s of student sites on a $5/month VPS. The free tier of AWS/GCP/etc are extremely capable. There are free services like Wix and Glitch that let you build a webpage and then mess with the HTML, no domain name needed.

The problem of warez is certainly no worse than it was 30 years ago, and there are much better tools to address it. A simple storage quota probably goes a long way.

Re:I'm a fucking webmaster (2016) by sph on Monday May 09, 2022 @10:14AM (#31314249)
Signing up to and using AWS or GCP is orders of magnitude more complex than those old free hosting services where you got an FTP username and a password. In fact you could upload directly from Frontpage IIRC, but I could never get it to work.

It's simpler for us software engineers, less simple for the snot-nosed webmaster wannabes we were.

Re:I'm a fucking webmaster (2016) by 411111111111111 on Monday May 09, 2022 @10:47AM (#31314710)
Thank goodness you don't need to do any of that then.

If all you want is to host static html, then any free hosting service will suffice. I.e. let them create a GitHub account and show them git add / git commit / git push and you're done.

Re:I'm a fucking webmaster (2016) by fartcannon on Monday May 09, 2022 @12:33PM (#31316261)
If you can use git, you can run a webserver. It's all just right there waiting for you.
Re:I'm a fucking webmaster (2016) by eli on Monday May 09, 2022 @10:55AM (#31314847)
That's because someone did the work of setting up a server for you, configuring the services, and issuing FTP credentials. That part is now a whole lot cheaper and easier and more secure.

It doesn't get much easier than signing up for e.g. Glitch.

Re:I'm a fucking webmaster (2016) by fartcannon on Monday May 09, 2022 @12:31PM (#31316238)
Setting up a server is so unbelievably simple that anyone capable of writing software shouldn't blink at the task. The fact that there's a lot of blinking strikes me as profoundly funny.
Re:I'm a fucking webmaster (2016) by WaffleIronMaker on Monday May 09, 2022 @08:49PM (#31321958)
I mean, it isn't?

Even the simple matter of port forwarding assumes you have access to the router you're using, and that's a major barrier for a lot of people.

I run the programming club at my high school (I'm a high schooler), and we use Github pages to host all of our stuff for this very reason.

I've used some old laptops to run servers within the network, but my school doesn't want us hosting anything public, and running everything through a free tunneling service like localtunnel is possible, but it scales so much better when students can just follow some friendly instructions to host a static site themselves.

It's not hard for the people with the privileges of (1) having a budget > $0 and (2) not having the adults tell you 'no' every time you want to try learn something.

Am I missing something? Even hosting static content on a server seems like a layer of complexity that is frequently unnecessary for basic use-cases.

Re:I'm a fucking webmaster (2016) by fartcannon on Monday May 09, 2022 @10:02PM (#31322527)
You just, as you say, follow friendly instructions. It's as easy as reading a page of a manual.
Re:I'm a fucking webmaster (2016) by eli on Monday May 09, 2022 @08:59PM (#31322038)
In 1999? I mean, I did it, but I didn't think it was easy. Every single step was harder then than it is now.
Re:I'm a fucking webmaster (2016) by limograf on Monday May 09, 2022 @11:19AM (#31315253)
Here's what we do with beginner developers who have never coded before: - build pages in Codepen so they can see everything build as they go, fork from templates, and share/riff off each other - export from Codepen to a folder so they can see that static sites are just text files in a folder and nothing mysterious -- at this point I also introduce an editor like VSCode - drag and drop that folder onto Github and deploy to Netlify

You can do this in an hour with brand new coders. https://syllabus.codeyourfuture.io/fundamentals/week-1/sessi...

Re:I'm a fucking webmaster (2016) by mrlemke on Monday May 09, 2022 @10:16AM (#31314271)
Huh? Just use neocities.org. Even has a built-in editor on the site.
Re:I'm a fucking webmaster (2016) by sph on Monday May 09, 2022 @10:18AM (#31314286)
HN knows neocities, everybody used to know Geocities once. How's one supposed to sign up there if it's so niche it's not known outside of the tech circles?
Re:I'm a fucking webmaster (2016) by fartcannon on Monday May 09, 2022 @12:34PM (#31316278)
Tell people outside of tech circles.
Re:I'm a fucking webmaster (2016) by vsareto on Monday May 09, 2022 @10:40AM (#31314603)
Maybe teach using local html and files and save hosting for the end.
Re:I'm a fucking webmaster (2016) by fartcannon on Monday May 09, 2022 @12:46PM (#31316451)
You can even just run a full sever right on your home computer and share the webpages over LAN. It's far more valuable to learn how google/Amazon/microsoft do it, than to learn how google/Amazon/microsoft want you to do it, anyways.
Re:I'm a fucking webmaster (2016) by sporedro on Monday May 09, 2022 @09:49AM (#31313947)
I think there’s quite a lot of options for static webpages now though. Would GitHub pages not be perfect for this?
Re:I'm a fucking webmaster (2016) by fartcannon on Monday May 09, 2022 @10:04PM (#31322538)
Yeah github pages is basically GeoCities with a little extra data farming by Microsoft. Works fine, if you don't mind that.
Re:I'm a fucking webmaster (2016) by schwartzworld on Tuesday May 10, 2022 @06:00AM (#31325282)
Netlify has drag and drop deploys now. Can't get simpler than dragging a folder onto a webpage
Re:I'm a fucking webmaster (2016) by laptop-man on Monday May 09, 2022 @09:16AM (#31313632)
netlify for free static hosting. dirt simple no cc decent free teir
Re:I'm a fucking webmaster (2016) by diamondo25 on Monday May 09, 2022 @09:07AM (#31313545)
At least the doctype is simple nowadays. The XHTML one was horrendous.
Re:I'm a fucking webmaster (2016) by laristine on Monday May 09, 2022 @09:17AM (#31313643)
Horrendous yes, but it was necessary, because without it we wouldn't have had the nice doctype HTML5 today. It addressed a lot of problems found in the early html and paved way for standardization and a path forward.
Re:I'm a fucking webmaster (2016) by mathieuh on Monday May 09, 2022 @09:22AM (#31313690)
When I was in primary school, at around 10- or 11-years-old there was a popular website that gave you a homepage and had challenges for doing things like making the header a certain size or having images and so on, I remember thinking it was really cool

I think it was called Grid<something> or <Something>grid, I just had a look but couldn't find it

Think it was somehow linked to schools, this was in the UK around 2005

Re:I'm a fucking webmaster (2016) by salawat on Tuesday May 10, 2022 @08:35PM (#31334480)
Man, I loved the whole process of learning about IRQ's address spaces, I/O, North and South bridge, DMA...

I didn't know a lick of programming, but just knowing how to trace the 0's and 1's through the hardware greatly boosted my confidence in interacting with the computer.

No matter what program or language got put in front of me, I knew that something on a disk or in memory, or in some storage somewhere was telling the computer to do it.

Then I set out to understand the people who wrote those things and what they set out to do.

Then I realized I probably hated most of you. Because you went out of the way to make having my computer do what I wanted harder.

I'm somewhat reluctant to encourage youngsters down the path. I'm not sure it's the healthiest occupation.

Re:I'm a fucking webmaster (2016) by mch82 on Monday May 09, 2022 @10:45AM (#31314685)
Checkout Firefox Developer Edition, https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/developer/

Create an HTML file and open it up in the browser without a web server (though some advanced stuff will need a web server running). The developer tools built into the browser can be used to interact with the page and see how changing HTML, CSS, or JavaScript affects it.

Web console can be used to experiment with JavaScript, https://firefox-source-docs.mozilla.org/devtools-user/web_co...

Re:I'm a fucking webmaster (2016) by Snowworm on Monday May 09, 2022 @11:19AM (#31315254)
It doesn't even need to be developer edition. That is more geared towards extension development rather than web page development.
Re:I'm a fucking webmaster (2016) by mattwad on Monday May 09, 2022 @09:59AM (#31314062)
I took a summer class in C++ in middle school and ditched programming for probably 5 years before coming back when i learned I could make games with my TI calculator :)