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Re:Feeling uncomfortable when leaving phone at home shouldn'... by dsr_ on Sunday May 08, 2022 @02:27PM (#31306695)
"Stories set in the Culture in which Things Went Wrong tended to start with humans losing or forgetting or deliberately leaving behind their terminal. It was a conventional opening, the equivalent of straying off the path in the wild woods in one age, or a car breaking down at night on a lonely road in another.

A terminal, in the shape of a ring, button, bracelet or pen or whatever, was your link with everybody and everything else in the Culture. Without a terminal, you were never more than a question or a shout away from almost anything you wanted to know, or almost any help you could possibly need."

--Iain M. Banks, in The Player of Games

Re:Feeling uncomfortable when leaving phone at home shouldn'... by mostlysimilar on Sunday May 08, 2022 @02:38PM (#31306798)
So I had a feeling "without a terminal" was a typo and I wanted to look up the exact quote. I googled the sentence and expected the right quote to be at the top, but all Google gave me was results for helping people with terminal cancer cope with their coming death.

It was only after I appended "Ian M Banks" that I got the result I was looking for. I'm honestly surprised Google failed that search so hard.

Re:Feeling uncomfortable when leaving phone at home shouldn'... by manachar on Sunday May 08, 2022 @02:51PM (#31306929)
Google has become blinded by metrics focused on giving people what an algorithm things most people want.

It's the digital equivalent of going to a restaurant and looking for vegetarian food only to be inundated with gluten-free and other health-fad foods.

I suspect their algorithm is in a bit of a doom loop as it's being trained on people clicking worse and worse results of pages that seem clearly written to game the SEO.

This is not unique to google. Amazon keeps including things I didn't search for because they want to be "helpful".

Indeed, my experience at big box hardware stores is matching this as well. If you go for one simple thing that you know you want, you're presented with an entire aisle of absolute crap that sort of does it but for much more money while the one item you need is out of stock.

Re:Feeling uncomfortable when leaving phone at home shouldn'... by DancesWTurtles on Sunday May 08, 2022 @03:45PM (#31307491)
Little nitpick: "the algorithm" does not even find the things "most people wants"; it finds the things some executive or other decided it was the most convenient to find taking into account the needs of the corporation only. Yes, there is theoretically some way to return, up to some degree, what people would find useful; but the decisions are not made by the people fiddling with the algorithms. Those people have their hands tied and must follow the interests of someone who most of the time knows nothing about algorithms or people or the end product.
Re:Feeling uncomfortable when leaving phone at home shouldn'... by skybrian on Sunday May 08, 2022 @04:20PM (#31307788)
Even a little research would show that Google is far more sophisticated than that in tuning its search engine.
Re:Feeling uncomfortable when leaving phone at home shouldn'... by pizza on Sunday May 08, 2022 @03:37PM (#31307413)
ironic. search engine optimization, rather than minimizing the entropy of search, maximized it..
Re:Feeling uncomfortable when leaving phone at home shouldn'... by cassianoleal on Sunday May 08, 2022 @04:20PM (#31307789)
It's not like the people at Google didn't know about Goodhart's Law. Somehow I don't think SEO was ever meant to improve search results.
Re:Feeling uncomfortable when leaving phone at home shouldn'... by pizza on Sunday May 08, 2022 @05:47PM (#31308418)
Honestly I’m just surprised it’s so profitable to be so spammy that this stuff is persisting. That said, when I see shit results, I hardly ever bother to click on the second page any longer. Perhaps the seo spam taking up the near-but-not-top results are the biggest schmucks of all, since they are probably putting in at least a little money/effort to get there, I would imagine?
Re:Feeling uncomfortable when leaving phone at home shouldn'... by bombcar on Sunday May 08, 2022 @08:00PM (#31309162)
They just want to sell ads. The site loads, the ads load, they get their cut.

Nobody seems to care that the ads are worthless and make nobody any money.

Re:Feeling uncomfortable when leaving phone at home shouldn'... by carom on Sunday May 08, 2022 @02:59PM (#31307028)
Gluten free isn't a health fad. Please learn about celiacs.
Re:Feeling uncomfortable when leaving phone at home shouldn'... by joebob42 on Sunday May 08, 2022 @03:00PM (#31307053)
The set of celiacs is much smaller than the set of people who think eating gluten free food is a good idea.
Re:Feeling uncomfortable when leaving phone at home shouldn'... by ashirviskas on Sunday May 08, 2022 @03:24PM (#31307304)
Afaik unhealthy diet increases gluten sensitivity. I have it and it sucks having your knees and elbows hurt for a week after eating a gluten rich pizza.
Re:Feeling uncomfortable when leaving phone at home shouldn'... by kennywinker on Sunday May 08, 2022 @03:33PM (#31307384)
> Afaik unhealthy diet increases gluten sensitivity

I don't want to argue with your overall point at all, because I assume that whatever this sentence specifically means to you is true for you - but given that there is no actually objective definition of what a healthy diet is - it's hard to agree with the statement in general. I would feel like I was eating unhealthily if I had a can of coke every day, but that doesn't actually mean it's unhealthy. It probably depends on everything else I'm eating, how much I'm burning off, maybe even something as fine-grained as how fast I drink it. You would almost definitely feel unhealthy if you were eating bread every day, but as long as it was whole-wheat and had some good sandwich fixins in it, I'd feel pretty good about that.

Anyway, sorry if I'm being pedantic, but I feel like people toss around things like "healthy diet" as if we're all supposed to know and agree what that means.

Re:Feeling uncomfortable when leaving phone at home shouldn'... by feanaro on Sunday May 08, 2022 @04:30PM (#31307868)
> You would almost definitely feel unhealthy if you were eating bread every day, but as long as it was whole-wheat and had some good sandwich fixins in it, I'd feel pretty good about that.

Eating bread every day is actually pretty common in some cultures and people don't even stop to think it's unhealthy because it's so commonplace, so even that varies.

Re:Feeling uncomfortable when leaving phone at home shouldn'... by kennywinker on Sunday May 08, 2022 @07:54PM (#31309138)
The poster I was replying to said they had a gluten sensitivity, which is why I was saying he would probably find it an unhealthy part of his diet. I did not mean to imply that I think eating bread every day is unhealthy :)
Re:Feeling uncomfortable when leaving phone at home shouldn'... by mechanical_bear on Sunday May 08, 2022 @03:01PM (#31307066)
It is a health fad for most. People with actual diagnosed celiac's disease are rare. Self diagnosed… that is another deal…
Re:Feeling uncomfortable when leaving phone at home shouldn'... by kennywinker on Sunday May 08, 2022 @03:21PM (#31307275)
In addition to celiac disease, which is not actually so rare - only about 3 times as rare as red hair - there is also Wheat Allergy, which is very real and detectable by measuring immune responses - and Non-Celiac Gluten Sensitivity (NCGS).

Most of the "health fad" people you're talking about would probably self-categorize themselves as NCGS, but that doesn't mean that everybody who is NCGS is part of a health fad. Double-blind "challenge" studies where people are unaware if what they are eating contains wheat/gluten have confirmed that for some people this is definitely real and not a made up fad.

I'm not denying the existence of people going gluten free for fad or orthorexia reasons, but be careful when you lump everyone who is gluten free for non-celiac reasons into that category.

Re:Feeling uncomfortable when leaving phone at home shouldn'... by rootusrootus on Sunday May 08, 2022 @03:17PM (#31307236)
I work with a guy who is a real, fully diagnosed celiac sufferer. The gluten-free fad has had serious consequences for him. Some restaurants don't take him seriously, claim gluten-free food when it isn't, and he gets seriously ill when that happens. He doesn't eat out so much any more because it's not worth the risk.
Re:Feeling uncomfortable when leaving phone at home shouldn'... by CrazyStat on Sunday May 08, 2022 @03:20PM (#31307267)
On the other hand, it has greatly increased the availability of pre-packaged gluten-free food options. The consequences aren't all bad.

(I have a sibling with celiac disease).

Re:Feeling uncomfortable when leaving phone at home shouldn'... by MerelyMortal on Sunday May 08, 2022 @03:29PM (#31307344)
Did it increase the actual availability, or just the marketing?

I've noticed things that never had glueten in it, labeled "glueten-free" after the craze a few years ago.

Re:Feeling uncomfortable when leaving phone at home shouldn'... by CrazyStat on Sunday May 08, 2022 @03:47PM (#31307515)
It absolutely increased availability. When my sibling was first diagnosed things like gluten free bread had to be ordered and shipped and were extremely expensive. Now they're available in many (mostly up-market) grocery stores, and while still expensive have come down in price a lot.
Re:Feeling uncomfortable when leaving phone at home shouldn'... by Xylakant on Sunday May 08, 2022 @04:13PM (#31307722)
I’m currently on vacation and the hotel breakfast buffet has a gluten free bread option. Granted, it’s prepackaged toast, but I’d say it’s better than hungry.
Re:Feeling uncomfortable when leaving phone at home shouldn'... by marvin on Sunday May 08, 2022 @08:35PM (#31309325)
A close friend of mine with celiac disease says it was a whole different world after 2014 or so. Like being on an alien planet and being in a familiar place.
Re:Feeling uncomfortable when leaving phone at home shouldn'... by kennywinker on Sunday May 08, 2022 @03:51PM (#31307544)
There are plenty of foods that have never had gluten-containing ingredients, but have always been made in factories or contexts where they come into contact with gluten. Celiacs, and people with NCGS who have strong reactions, when given the option will usually avoid anything that hasn't been actively tested and confirmed gluten free. For things like a bag of rice, or produce, there isn't an option with that label for re-assurance, and then it's a gamble... the odds of a bag of rice containing gluten may be low, but with such big consequences it's still a gamble. So the proliferation of the GF label is useful. There have also been a ton of new products launched that are gluten free, so it's definitely not just a labeling thing.
Re:Feeling uncomfortable when leaving phone at home shouldn'... by tleilaxu on Sunday May 08, 2022 @03:01PM (#31307060)
It can be both…
Re:Feeling uncomfortable when leaving phone at home shouldn'... by resfirestar on Sunday May 08, 2022 @03:07PM (#31307132)
(I misunderstood your comment initially so corrected this sentence) The problem is that the sentence is typo'd so searching for the exact quote (not keywords) doesn't work correctly. For the record the actual quote is:

>With a terminal, you were never more than a question or a shout away from almost anything you wanted to know, or almost any help you could possibly need

When you Google that in quotes you get actual results from Google Books and Goodreads, while Bing/DuckDuckGo only returns an archive from a random blog that quotes it halfway down the page, and the new hot search engine Brave finds nothing. I agree it's a little disappointing that one mistaken word throws Google so far off the trail.

Re:Feeling uncomfortable when leaving phone at home shouldn'... by Falkon1313 on Tuesday May 10, 2022 @02:54AM (#31324285)
For me on duckduckgo, the first two results are this thread and the fourth is the story itself.

>There were (true) stories of people falling off cliffs and the terminal relaying their scream in time for a Hub unit to switch to that terminal's camera, realise what was happening and displace a drone to catch the faller in mid-air; there were other stories about terminals recording the severing of their owner's head from their body in an accident, and summoning a medical drone in time to save the brain, leaving the de-bodied person with no more a problem than finding ways to pass the months it took to grow a new body.

>A terminal was safety.

>So Gurgeh took his on the longer walks.

Our cell phones might sometimes be pretty useful devices, but they're not quite capable of that sort of thing yet.

Still, you can walk around and explore without using it, while still having it along in a pocket just in case you do the modern equivalent of fall off a cliff or get decapitated. Just better hope you have cell service and your battery is charged up if you do.

I got a smartphone 10 years ago after a trip where I got lost in an unfamiliar city at night. I did manage to navigate my way around by sense of direction and spotting buildings and river, and was just a little late to the party I was going to. But I thought something with maps would be more useful than a flip-phone if I ever got lost while traveling again.

A few years later, exploring randomly in the mountains a couple of states away with my wife, we pulled into a small town late one evening and got out our phones to look for a place to eat and a place to stay. No service, for either of us. So we just wandered around the town with our eyes open and asked people. Found a great restaurant and a nice quiet little bed and breakfast. Once again serendipity beat the cell phone.

What is more concerning is that kids who've grown up with them their entire lives just might not be able to handle that sort of thing. They might just freak out as much as if they had fallen off a cliff or something.

Re:Feeling uncomfortable when leaving phone at home shouldn'... by solveit on Sunday May 08, 2022 @03:29PM (#31307346)
> I agree it's a little disappointing that one mistaken word throws Google so far off the trail.

But can you imagine the aggravation if Google chooses to do the opposite and 'helpfully' 'corrects' your quotes for you? Actually I am not sure I have to imagine...

Re:Feeling uncomfortable when leaving phone at home shouldn'... by resfirestar on Sunday May 08, 2022 @03:55PM (#31307575)
Definitely hands off my quote searches, but one might hope that if you took out the quotation marks it would be able to pick up the correct quote. In fact it can if you change around certain words in the first sentence (Stories set in the Culture...). I think what's going on is that "without a terminal..." is not such a well known quote and has some pretty broadly applicable keywords (terminal...question...help), while combining the more unique set of keywords from "stories set in the culture...", which is a more well known quote, is more likely to lead the search engine to the quote even if you're missing one of the keywords in it due to a typo.
Re:Feeling uncomfortable when leaving phone at home shouldn'... by belltaco on Sunday May 08, 2022 @02:53PM (#31306964)
Google has become borderline unusable for finding something that's not popular that's more than a month or year old. Multiple times I have spent more than 5 to 10 minutes trying to find something I have read a few years or even a few months ago and it's next to impossible to find it, even with time gating the results Google just keeps returning popular search results over specificity. The long tail is just ignored in their current algo.
Re:Feeling uncomfortable when leaving phone at home shouldn'... by spullara on Sunday May 08, 2022 @03:02PM (#31307076)
People are constantly saying these things about google and when I search for:

"Stories set in the Culture in which Things Went Wrong tended to start with humans losing or forgetting or deliberately leaving behind their terminal"

I get the exact answer as a snippet at the top of the search. I am beginning to think everyone that has bad search results has some kind of malware installed on their computer since their searches always work for me.

Re:Feeling uncomfortable when leaving phone at home shouldn'... by tyrfing on Sunday May 08, 2022 @03:25PM (#31307316)
It fails if you search for the incorrect quote; the last sentence should start "With" and not "Without". Checking competitors, Bing fails to find any variation of the quote, Yandex returns 5 results if you remove the incorrect word and quote it, but returns garbage otherwise. Considering the single-digit number of results for an apparently very obscure quote, and that it was incorrect, this does seem reasonable.

I'm starting to think that standards are simply rising over time. 10 years ago, would anyone complain that an incorrect quote from a 30-year-old book didn't return results?

Re:Feeling uncomfortable when leaving phone at home shouldn'... by spullara on Sunday May 08, 2022 @05:13PM (#31308197)
Trying this:

Without a terminal, you were never more than a question or a shout away from almost anything you wanted to know

It suggests results that don't include terminal (but of course that is a critical word for this quote), selecting must include terminal, gives the quote as the top results.

Re:Feeling uncomfortable when leaving phone at home shouldn'... by tyrfing on Sunday May 08, 2022 @06:06PM (#31308535)
Fascinating. Quoting individual words like "terminal" or "shout" also works as a nudge for both Google and Yandex, but not for Bing.

And since our written observations modify the behavior, an update: quoting the whole sentence now returns a single result - this page.

Re:Feeling uncomfortable when leaving phone at home shouldn'... by tomilola39 on Sunday May 08, 2022 @03:16PM (#31307227)
Parent likely searched without hard quotes; leading to the bad results.
Re:Feeling uncomfortable when leaving phone at home shouldn'... by shiftpgdn on Sunday May 08, 2022 @02:46PM (#31306889)
Google is optimized around showing ads, not returning relevant search results.
Re:Feeling uncomfortable when leaving phone at home shouldn'... by ChuckMcM on Sunday May 08, 2022 @03:13PM (#31307198)
Not surprised. The way I see it, Google is trying so hard to monetize search that they have left behind any pretense of information retrieval.
Re:Feeling uncomfortable when leaving phone at home shouldn'... by whimsicalism on Sunday May 08, 2022 @02:57PM (#31307010)
..but it was a typo, yeah?
Re:Feeling uncomfortable when leaving phone at home shouldn'... by dsr_ on Sunday May 08, 2022 @03:01PM (#31307057)
Yes, it should be "With a terminal".
Re:Feeling uncomfortable when leaving phone at home shouldn'... by RealityVoid on Sunday May 08, 2022 @02:37PM (#31306787)
First thing I thought about as well. I really think The Culture is very special in its ability to "feel" the future.