News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Teen mental health is plummeting and social media is a ma... by throwaway787544 on Thursday May 05, 2022 @08:07AM (#31272287)
It's not the only source of the problem, but social media is certainly a big one.

Back in the day you didn't get rape threats from 50 anonymous accounts, or see pictures of you photoshopped sucking dicks, or feel like even more of a loser because you see in 4K detail how everybody else in class is having more fun outside of school. The internet is a threat and embarrassment and envy machine. You feel like you're constantly losing a battle to be relevant and have a good time, and you pathologically monitor feeds of other people's lives to try to stay ahead. When that doesn't work you lose yourself in mindless entertainment to avoid mental stress, also avoiding processing hard emotions.

That's not all new, but it's at a level higher than ever before.

Re:Teen mental health is plummeting and social media is a ma... by roland35 on Thursday May 05, 2022 @09:18AM (#31272920)
The internet was certainly a lot lower stakes and fun in the 90s and early 2000s. We had fun taking over the mic and singing karaoke in Yahoo chatrooms, watching albino black sheep, and playing flash games on kongregator. Even early Facebook was just making funny groups and posting in each other's walls.

None of those activities really had me envying anyone else. I remember the first thing that made me feel worthless and unaccomplished was TED talks!

I agree the problem is that it's hard to separate our online life from our offline life now.

Re:Teen mental health is plummeting and social media is a ma... by Agamus on Thursday May 05, 2022 @12:38PM (#31275545)
And here it is, perhaps the actual issue: TED talks. And everything else, that is, all of the information of the information age, including social media.

Life for kids and everyone is drastically different from what it was just a few decades ago, because we have drastically different access and exposure to information, in general. This has changed the human experience.

I suspect it is because I have not looked hard enough, but I do not see enough about how much this has changed us. We try to pinpoint specific aspects, like social media, but I rarely see discussion about how just the raw exposure and access to information has changed us.

The value of knowledge is decreased, because it is accessible to everyone. This fact changed how people find their place in the world, find meaning and purpose, make social connections, etc. How much did this change us? I believe it has completely altered the human experience. Technology only hits this hard a few times every 1000 or so years. Gunpowder, printing press, electricity, internet. We're in the midst of a big shift now.

Here's an example: consider magic and sleight of hand. Until easily accessible information, the method of 'doing a trick' was arcane knowledge. This was the case for thousands of years. Knowledge was generally obtainable, but you had to go out of your way to get it. No adult believed in magic, but the fuzziness around the knowledge was enough to allow the audience to suspend belief that something wondrous happened.

This aspect of wonder is now rare. To what degree is the lack of access to wonder a root cause of the decline in teen mental health?

For what it is worth, I was that person in 2007 who warned everyone I knew about social media, for the exact reasons we are now discussing.

Re:Teen mental health is plummeting and social media is a ma... by jerome-jh on Thursday May 05, 2022 @05:03PM (#31278386)
A recent experience of me and my daughters: a few months ago we thought of making a submarine. I had the idea to use a lunch box as a water proof container, then began experimenting transmitting power through magnetic coupling. Then I found a video of someone who did the exact same thing (maybe even better) with Lego's: 20M+ views on Youtube. Project stopped straight away. Actually my daughters wanted me to go on but I was demotivated (side note: maybe not the best example I gave my kids).

It is a long time ago I impressed my class at school by programming the "biorhythm" on a Casio pocket calculator. Whatever you do, someone did it better, larger, shinier and posted the video on Youtube.

Of course it is not that gloomy and there is still a lot of fun experiments to be had. Currently we have a photographic trap and try to get pictures of wild animals: it is quite hard and that makes it all the more fun. It is a also a way to know our immediate surroundings better and that cannot be replaced by an online experience.

[edit] In low income households smartphone+subscription take a large share of the free income, yet are felt as necessary. This leaves no money for leisure other then social networks, which are costless.

Re:Teen mental health is plummeting and social media is a ma... by thoughtpeddler on Thursday May 05, 2022 @05:50PM (#31278764)
I love this comment. This is a hugely under-appreciated fact of the now-mature Information Age: that we are oversaturated with all the ... information!

This occurs across a variety of dimensions: too much information about the goings-on of our friends and family, about the world at large, about all the things we're supposed to do to "stay healthy", etc.

Re:Teen mental health is plummeting and social media is a ma... by scotty79 on Thursday May 05, 2022 @02:34PM (#31276949)
> To what degree is the lack of access to wonder a root cause of the decline in teen mental health?

This is grasping at straws. While the expectation is you'll create and maintain curated online presence tied to your real life identity in a world of increasingly economically stratified society.

Re:Teen mental health is plummeting and social media is a ma... by redmen on Thursday May 05, 2022 @02:17PM (#31276766)
Nice. I was that person in 2006 and 11 months
Re:Teen mental health is plummeting and social media is a ma... by bcrl on Wednesday May 11, 2022 @05:08PM (#31345788)
The value of knowledge has not decreased, and I would say that knowledge is more valuable than ever. What has decreased is the quality of much of the information that is widely available. For certain searches or websites people are likely to be driven towards misinformation and sites promoting conspiracy theories. The signal to noise ratio of much information is now more noise than signal.

Click bait is the perfect example of this. You see an ad telling you about a story that sounds interesting, so you click the link. Suddenly you are drawing in to a website with 1 sentence of text per page that you want to read surrounded by crappy ads and pop-ups. You want to know how the story panned out, but are overwhelmed by the garbage. Lesson learned, but how do I teach Google to stop showing me that crap?

Personally, I think this all comes down to the cost of publishing. When a publisher had to shell out real money to print a book by an author, there was an incentive for the publisher to hire editors that did a good job of making sure the books they printed were of value (the same applies to newspapers). When the marginal cost of putting a news story on a website is $0, there's not really any point in hiring an editor anymore.

The same parallel exists in the phone network today. Back in the 1980s when it cost $0.34 per minute to make a long distance call, the people calling you probably thought twice before calling. Today's VoIP networks charging less than a penny a minute have enabled farms of robocallers to harass you with garbage calls. The near zero cost of international calls means that call centers in poor countries can profitably harass the elderly in rich companies with endless new scams.

Again, the same pattern exists with videos. 20 years ago a slickly produced video took time and money to produce. Now any teenager with a phone or laptop can throw a bunch of clips together, add some voice over and hit publish without spending a penny.

The only path I see forward from here is that this entire situation will get worse. Technologies like GPT-3 are amazing, but they come with a cost: it becomes cheaper to write walls of text. People will use it or perhaps are using it to create websites devoid of real content. Search engines that are already having trouble distinguishing between real thoughtful content and the wasteland of content farms will have an even harder time to produce relevant results for search requests.

I hate to say, but we were better off when the cost of people's attention was much greater than $0.

Re:Teen mental health is plummeting and social media is a ma... by oicU00 on Thursday May 05, 2022 @10:22PM (#31280556)
The same was true with religion. There was no wonder, just gospel.

Again we’ve made a truism that we’re doing for the greater good by setting ourselves aside for the hustle. Yet no science gives anyone omniscience; we follow along because what else to do, but the high minded goals we follow along with do not have to be rockets to nowhere.

Notice how all the rich people do little real work to provide material things they need? They externalize the necessary effort required for their survival, despite being mortals who are expected to support themselves, they gossip and babble and produce little that truly supports them.

The public needs to let go of the Protestant work ethic, the mountain man struggle and become a better negotiator. The grind keeps them from imagining in detail for themselves.

Re:Teen mental health is plummeting and social media is a ma... by theclansman on Thursday May 05, 2022 @10:04AM (#31273484)
Yeah same, the internet of early 2000s was a super cozy place for me, I remember everyone at first was like "wow it's so amazing how you can be someone else online," now the internet is just a giant window to your life. I remember my mom telling me to never share any info about me online, now everyone has their entire lives uploaded, full name, face picture, phone number, it's all there.

Funny thing is it didn't actually get any less dangerous, people just decided that if everyone did it then there's no problem.

Re:Teen mental health is plummeting and social media is a ma... by ratww on Thursday May 05, 2022 @10:57AM (#31274186)
That's also how I remember it. It changed when Facebook became popular around me. Myspace, Tumblr, Twitter (my group of friends had it way before Facebook) were all about "nicknames" and random pics as avatars.

But a strange thing happened with people I knew was that after FB's "Real Name Policy". Anyone who kept using a pseudonym was viewed as outdated at best, sometimes a downright weirdo. Only people part of Twitter/Tumbler niche communities kept using fake names.

I also remember around the 2010s a "friend of a friend" bragging about reporting someone using a nickname to Facebook and having Facebook accept the report and force the person to change.

Interestingly, some teens that I know are sort of going back to that. They don't have Facebook, if they have Instagram, it is just random pictures of objects, more like Tumblr was, no interest in being influencers.

Re:Teen mental health is plummeting and social media is a ma... by neuralRiot on Thursday May 05, 2022 @04:37PM (#31278111)
I suggest you to read “The transparency society” from Wun-chul Han
Re:Teen mental health is plummeting and social media is a ma... by pixodaros on Thursday May 05, 2022 @07:17PM (#31279411)
Its a common misperception that "everyone has their entire lives uploaded", because humans are subject to availability bias. I recently spent some time living with young university students in a non-English-speaking European country, and most of them had one social media account (generally locked or pseudonymous) plus text apps. Data brokers are not able to collect and resell anything they please in most civilized countries.

Always remember that the Internet and social media are dominated by people who put an unhealthy amount of time and energy into the Internet and social media. Those people are not real, any more than the old-media commentariat and their taboos are real. Most people are much less visible because they have lives.

Re:Teen mental health is plummeting and social media is a ma... by thawaya3113 on Thursday May 05, 2022 @08:54PM (#31279980)
What do you think they’re doing in text apps? Why do you think Facebook bought WhatsApp

Sure, your WhatsApp conversations are end to end encrypted. Except if you’re in a group conversation. Or if you have the on by default backup turned on.

Re:Teen mental health is plummeting and social media is a ma... by pixodaros on Tuesday May 10, 2022 @08:05PM (#31334219)
IME, mostly one on one chats with people they know IRL. Several of them are very serious about not being photographed without consent and time to prepare.
Re:Teen mental health is plummeting and social media is a ma... by Taylor_OD on Thursday May 05, 2022 @10:51AM (#31274108)
Yeah... But we also saw countless dicks on Chat Roulette and watched terrorists sever heads of journalists on LiveLeak and talked to plenty of perverts on AIM.

It wasnt all peaches and candy.

Re:Teen mental health is plummeting and social media is a ma... by bluefirebrand on Thursday May 05, 2022 @12:01PM (#31275061)
True, there was some crazy shit out there back then, but we were also more in control of our own circumstances.

If you don't want to see dicks on Chatroulette, don't use Chatoroulette. Or use it, but leave when you see a dick.

Some creeper on AIM? Block them. If they keep making new accounts to come back, create a new account and invite your friends to that one.

With bigger social media, the social cost of not being where your peer group is is high. Things are engineered to try and limit your exposure to the crazy stuff but it's still out there and in higher volumes than ever before.

It's also much harder to avoid now if somehow an algorithm decides you should see it. And you can't just create a new account and leave a dead one behind you, or at least it's much harder.

Re:Teen mental health is plummeting and social media is a ma... by thawaya3113 on Thursday May 05, 2022 @08:56PM (#31279991)
Chat roulette was random. Chat roulette was not pushing the dick streams to more people because it was getting the highest engagement.

If you wanted to watch terrorists sever a head you had to at the very least search for it (it was usually more complicated than that). Facebook wouldn’t stuff it in between videos of kittens doing cute stuff while you endlessly scroll your newsfeed.

Re:Teen mental health is plummeting and social media is a ma... by waste_monk on Thursday May 05, 2022 @11:52PM (#31281123)
>If you wanted to watch terrorists sever a head you had to at the very least search for it

Or just happen to stumble onto 4chan during the summer period of each year where it would be flooded with gore and other shock content*. Or be unlucky enough to be on a site which had been targeted by a raid by 4chan or other imageboard users and flood those with shock content.

* to provide historical context for the younger folk here, 4chan would receive a flood of new users every year roughly corresponding to the American summer holiday period, and there would be a noticeable decline in posting quality during that time.

To ensure that only people who fit in with board culture stuck around, the site (or at least /b/ which was where I spent most of my time back in those days) would be flooded with the most offensive content possible to scare away the bulk of the new users. This was rather effective at filtering out people of an emotionally sensitive nature and leaving only the most jaded and persistent to become regular users.

Much like the so-called "Eternal September", the board eventually had a culture change and became more welcoming of new users, and this practice declined. Although that was a long time ago and I think perhaps it may have been more that the introduction of CAPTCHA, rate-limiting, and other anti-spam measures prevented the use of automated image dumping software that was used to flood threads with shock content.

Re:Teen mental health is plummeting and social media is a ma... by heavyset_go on Thursday May 05, 2022 @04:44PM (#31278181)
Everyone remembers the first time they saw Goatse.
Re:Teen mental health is plummeting and social media is a ma... by waste_monk on Thursday May 05, 2022 @11:24PM (#31280959)
Back when I was a fresh-faced youth I recoiled in disgust. Now when I see it I greet it as an old friend, a wistful reminder of a time when the internet was still largely wild and untamed by corporate interest.
Re:Teen mental health is plummeting and social media is a ma... by heavyset_go on Friday May 06, 2022 @03:25PM (#31288811)
I was genuinely sad to find out that the guy died a while back, but then was relieved to find out that it was just a meme and that he's still alive.
Re:Teen mental health is plummeting and social media is a ma... by bonoboTP on Tuesday May 10, 2022 @12:09PM (#31328797)
That was a real rollercoaster story but great happy ending!
Re:Teen mental health is plummeting and social media is a ma... by Rury on Thursday May 05, 2022 @11:11PM (#31280876)
I think you underline the problem. Comparing yourself with others and envying is a source of unhappiness. Social media allows for this, as do TED talks.

But I think another factor is the sheer existence of our ancestors. As more time goes on, the more history there is with more people having achieved great accomplishments. Younger generations will naturally just have more to live up to (with the potential to feel depressed if they don't).

Re:Teen mental health is plummeting and social media is a ma... by marc_io on Friday May 06, 2022 @08:03AM (#31284152)
So we must all change our concept of “greatness”. Perhaps more effort to embrace and value what is considered “less” rather than always trying to level up.
Re:Teen mental health is plummeting and social media is a ma... by cecilpl2 on Thursday May 05, 2022 @11:21AM (#31274495)
When I was a teenager in the late 90s, I had escapes from the social hell of high school. I could go home, invite one or two close friends over, and play video games. I could find a super niche community on IRC and hang with them virtually. I felt like I had somewhere I could belong.

Now, as a teenager you are plugged into that social fabric 24/7. I can't imagine how difficult it must be to find yourself in that hyper-connected social graph.

Re:Teen mental health is plummeting and social media is a ma... by DougN7 on Thursday May 05, 2022 @03:49PM (#31277691)
That’s a great point and it gave me the epiphany that perhaps being always on/connected, i.e. smart phones combined with everything else is actually the cause of change. You can’t just get up and walk away (obviously you can put your phone down, but then you are cut off!)
Re:Teen mental health is plummeting and social media is a ma... by R_VelJohnson on Friday May 06, 2022 @11:41AM (#31286482)
I think about this often. Without smartphones, none of the problems we blame on social media would exist. We've gained a lot from the smartphone form factor (I haven't been lost in 10 years, for example), but whether we've lost more is a really open question, in my view.
Re:Teen mental health is plummeting and social media is a ma... by abnercoimbre on Thursday May 05, 2022 @05:53PM (#31278778)
And being cut off means you lose potentially life-altering opportunities?
Re:Teen mental health is plummeting and social media is a ma... by DougN7 on Saturday May 07, 2022 @01:44PM (#31296779)
Does it though? It’s like the lottery - you pay a lot for that tiny chance.
Re:Teen mental health is plummeting and social media is a ma... by ceedan on Thursday May 05, 2022 @11:36AM (#31274703)
The ability to escape online was really nice. There was a lot more anonymity, privacy and exploration.
Re:Teen mental health is plummeting and social media is a ma... by DougN7 on Thursday May 05, 2022 @03:54PM (#31277740)
I had an epiphany below that it’s not just internet/social media as much as ALWAYS being connected to it via smart phones/tablets. Back in the day you got up and walked away, went outside, watched TV and you were completely away from it. Now we all carry it with is everywhere we go.
Re:Teen mental health is plummeting and social media is a ma... by thawaya3113 on Thursday May 05, 2022 @08:59PM (#31280018)
This is a great point. When logging onto the internet meant no one could make phone calls you spent 30-45 mins on AIM, caught up with your online friends, sometimes worked hard to sound funny and clever, had a great time, and then found something else to do.

But now that kids are connected to each other 100% of the time (being in class in school is also not excuse enough to not be connected) you have to be funny and clever all the time. An off hand comment while distracted by a million other things can lead to havoc in your social and online life.

Re:Teen mental health is plummeting and social media is a ma... by sharemywin on Friday May 06, 2022 @12:06AM (#31281192)
Don't forget the 24/7 of it. No escape from bullies
Re:Teen mental health is plummeting and social media is a ma... by oicU00 on Thursday May 05, 2022 @10:02AM (#31273453)
I wonder what social media discourse would look like if it wasn’t full of ad spam, lamenting inequality, freedom to be oneself without old politicians being mad, and environment concerns for young people.

It’s not social media at all; it’s the reality they live in which happens to include social media. It’s plain truth; the majority don’t give a fuck about their future.