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Re:Criticizing Hare language approach for generic data struc... by rowanG077 on Wednesday May 04, 2022 @10:19AM (#31260803)
Because software is generally written so that people use it. Memory unsafe languages have proven it's impossible to write secure software in, even by the best of the best developers. That's why I made the comparison with seatbelts. If you want to drive your car on public roads(deliver production software to users) you are not allowed to use memory unsafe languages(you must use a seatbelt). If you just make software for yourself that you don't release to the public no one will care if you write it in C or whatever.

It has nothing to do with anything you do. It has everything to do with the impact it has on everyone but yourself.

Re:Criticizing Hare language approach for generic data struc... by BaculumMeumEst on Wednesday May 04, 2022 @10:54AM (#31261325)
It’s also massively unsafe to drive in general, so we should probably ban the usage of cars wherever possible.
Re:Criticizing Hare language approach for generic data struc... by rowanG077 on Wednesday May 04, 2022 @11:01AM (#31261440)
Driving also brings great value. Using C over another language "Because you can't tell me what to do" does not. The more apt comparison would be if we had fully self driving cars that are proven to make almost no mistakes. And then still wanting to drive a car yourself on public roads, endangering yourself and others.
Re:Criticizing Hare language approach for generic data struc... by BaculumMeumEst on Wednesday May 04, 2022 @01:07PM (#31263151)
C and C++ still see overwhelming usage in many industries because of the business value they provide in terms of performance and how quickly you can produce software in it. That does not seem likely to change any time soon- game studios are not widely adopting rust, for example, and I don't expect that to change, even though they impact a MASSIVE amount of people.

Hare's value proposition is simplicity- which allows you to better reason about the software you write, for one thing. We are each entitled to our own opinion about how valuable that is.

Re:Criticizing Hare language approach for generic data struc... by ncmncm on Wednesday May 04, 2022 @03:48PM (#31264939)
C and C++ are at diametric opposite ends of the scale of value proposition. Listing them side by side eliminates any credibility your argument might have had.

Hare's "value proposition" of simplicity is, simply, a shuck. Any software effort has essential complexity that your language may help you manage, or chuck you in the deep water to sink or swim. Hare does the latter, and is even self-righteous about it.

Re:Criticizing Hare language approach for generic data struc... by BaculumMeumEst on Wednesday May 04, 2022 @04:28PM (#31265410)
I mentioned performance and game development specifically. I'm sure you're aware that it's common to write C++ that's very close to C while taking advantage of few features of C++. I don't think it's fair to call that the "diametric opposite of C".

Your opinion of Hare's view of simplicity is your opinion. Any software effort has some amount of essential complexity, in my experience many languages and tools quite a bit of incidental complexity that could be avoided.

Re:Criticizing Hare language approach for generic data struc... by ncmncm on Wednesday May 04, 2022 @04:35PM (#31265507)
You can write bad code in any language. (We used to say "you can write FORTRAN code in any language", back when.) C code compiled with a C++ compiler is C, and bad. With the C compiler, you had no choice. You do not get that excuse when you have a C++ compiler.

Avoiding unnecessary complexity is everybody's responsibility. Dumping every last bit of unavoidable complexity onto the programmer where it has been long demonstrated that tooling can take care of much of it is simply irresponsible, and inexcusable.

I do not excuse it.

Re:Criticizing Hare language approach for generic data struc... by staticassertion on Wednesday May 04, 2022 @11:20AM (#31261735)
We license people to drive and have a legal system for dealing with irresponsible drivers.
Re:Criticizing Hare language approach for generic data struc... by BaculumMeumEst on Wednesday May 04, 2022 @11:26AM (#31261828)
Companies have policies for software security. Industries have regulations.
Re:Criticizing Hare language approach for generic data struc... by staticassertion on Wednesday May 04, 2022 @11:47AM (#31262116)
The most common policy will be for SOC2, ISO27001. There's virtually nothing about software security in there, other than scanning for vulnerabilities. Everything else is about controls on infrastructure, threat modeling, that sort of thing.

It's not really relevant.

Besides, none of those have to do with software engineers. Compliance doesn't imply any individual responsibility.

Re:Criticizing Hare language approach for generic data struc... by BaculumMeumEst on Wednesday May 04, 2022 @12:03PM (#31262335)
The most common policy for what? I've worked in defense and there are stringent security requirements for applications and servers, which programs written in manual memory management languages would likely fail. "Some existing policies are bad" is not a convincing argument that hare shouldn't exist.
Re:Criticizing Hare language approach for generic data struc... by staticassertion on Wednesday May 04, 2022 @12:07PM (#31262376)
The most common for companies to have/ be required to have.

> I've worked in defense and there are stringent security requirements for applications and servers.

Like? FEDRAMP? The vast majority of compliance is about threat modeling and access controls.

Re:Criticizing Hare language approach for generic data struc... by BaculumMeumEst on Wednesday May 04, 2022 @12:28PM (#31262661)
> Like? FEDRAMP?

No, STIGs.

> The vast majority of compliance is about threat modeling and access controls.

If compliance doesn't address security, that sounds like a bigger issue than a new hobby language existing.

Re:Criticizing Hare language approach for generic data struc... by staticassertion on Wednesday May 04, 2022 @04:47PM (#31265652)
The issue is that no one is taking responsibility for writing safe software. Compliance / regulation isn't, developers aren't either.
Re:Criticizing Hare language approach for generic data struc... by flyingfences on Wednesday May 04, 2022 @10:50AM (#31261264)
I can assure you, the automotive industry uses more C/C++ than you've ever seen. C is used precisely because it's a mature and verifiable language.
Re:Criticizing Hare language approach for generic data struc... by rowanG077 on Wednesday May 04, 2022 @10:59AM (#31261418)
I'm not sure what your point is. I didn't claim memory unsafe languages aren't used, they obviously are. C is in fact not an easy language to verify. There have gone trillions of dollars into that and it's still not solved. You can't verify C. You might be able to verify a subset of C. But if you are in any position to choose any other language you should run, run, run quickly and far away from C.
Re:Criticizing Hare language approach for generic data struc... by flyingfences on Wednesday May 04, 2022 @11:28AM (#31261856)
My point is that your metaphor about "not [being] allowed to use memory unsafe languages" to build a car is completely backwards -- safety-critical embedded systems use C to avoid the abstractions introduced by higher-level languages.
Re:Criticizing Hare language approach for generic data struc... by rowanG077 on Wednesday May 04, 2022 @11:46AM (#31262105)
It's not backwards. C is used out of necessity not because it's such a great language. Safety-critical embedded systems use C because they have to. Not because it's nice. Claiming they do because C is such a great language to write safety-critical software in is a special kind of Stockholm syndrome.
Re:Criticizing Hare language approach for generic data struc... by ncmncm on Wednesday May 04, 2022 @03:58PM (#31265055)
There is no such language as C/C++. Your statement is meaningless, as stated.