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Re:Tell HN: Amazon.com is limiting purchases of Audio CDs to... by tempnow987 on Tuesday April 26, 2022 @12:15AM (#31163878)
Wasn't this because of rating spiking? They'd buy tons of these, then after rating went up return them to spike ratings on the charts as a form of marketing.

Is hacker news now the place SEO spammers go to get support?

Re:Tell HN: Amazon.com is limiting purchases of Audio CDs to... by Beltalowda on Tuesday April 26, 2022 @01:44AM (#31164339)
> Is hacker news now the place SEO spammers go to get support?

I doubt the OP is a SEO spammer. Buying 4 different CDs in a week is a normal operation for a music aficionado. Back when I regularly bought CDs I would buy maybe 10 or 15 new albums in one go (and then nothing for a while). I think it's a perfectly reasonable and legitimate thing to do.

I understand Amazon's predicament with SEO spammers, but essentially it's a somewhat user-hostile "fix" for their broken rating system. I don't understand why they don't limit the amount of returns, which also makes this type of spam harder. Or maybe rethink the entire "crowd-sourced rating" thing as it keeps being problematic in various ways.

Either way, there are many things you can do better than "fuck you legitimate customer".

Re:Tell HN: Amazon.com is limiting purchases of Audio CDs to... by londons_explore on Tuesday April 26, 2022 @03:19AM (#31164883)
> rethink the entire "crowd-sourced rating" thing

The real fix is to not have a single global rating for a product, but instead have 'personal ratings'. Ie. Every product rating I see is either a rating I have given, or Amazon's best prediction of the rating I would give if I had bought that product.

Such predictions are inherently hard to game, since if you start artificially rating your friends products highly, then the system will show high ratings only for your friends products to you.

Then they can do things like "I see you bought this product thinking it would be 4 stars, but you actually gave it 2 stars. We apologize for getting it wrong this time - have a refund of half the purchase price". That gives the AI team plenty of financial motivation to get the ratings correct.

Re:Tell HN: Amazon.com is limiting purchases of Audio CDs to... by Closi on Tuesday April 26, 2022 @03:44AM (#31165008)
The issue with your proposed model is that it assumes Amazon is a neutral actor who are attempting to accurately predict what you would like.

In reality, Amazon are incentivized to sell you more stuff, so allowing them to calculate ratings through some mysterious black box would introduce perverse incentives (i.e. Amazon is incentivized to sell more higher-margin stuff - would they be more tempted to inflate a product that is actually a '4 star' to a '5 star' to close the deal? Also how can we be sure that their black-box algorithm doesn't generally inflate Fire tablets and deflate iPads? This can happen even if the algorithm is entirely open).

Secondly, would probably reduce trust in the product rating system (as it will be necessarily opaque and hard to understand compared to the existing approach of averaging the reviews).

Amazon won't even fix basic review gaming - not because they can't (otherwise they would have acquired Fakespot) - but presumably because fake reviews help with sales.

Re:Tell HN: Amazon.com is limiting purchases of Audio CDs to... by rgavuliak on Tuesday April 26, 2022 @07:08AM (#31166007)
You say Amazon is incentivized to sell you more stuff, but this case clearly says they care more about objective ratings than about sales :)
Re:Tell HN: Amazon.com is limiting purchases of Audio CDs to... by Closi on Tuesday April 26, 2022 @08:47AM (#31166797)
I don't think that logically follows :)

If Amazon had a ratings black box, they would not be incentivised to be fair with it.

But a simple-to-understand ratings system may help sales more than an untrustworthy-black-box calculated rating (particularly considering reviews are about trust).

Re:Tell HN: Amazon.com is limiting purchases of Audio CDs to... by nisegami on Tuesday April 26, 2022 @08:58AM (#31166911)
I feel like the returns are the problem here.
Re:Tell HN: Amazon.com is limiting purchases of Audio CDs to... by Fnoord on Tuesday April 26, 2022 @04:01PM (#31172445)
In a healthy free market a competitor to Amazon might fix the problem and grab serious marketshare in the process. I have some hope. Not much though, due to the sheer size of the behemoth.
Re:Tell HN: Amazon.com is limiting purchases of Audio CDs to... by izzygonzalez on Tuesday April 26, 2022 @03:44AM (#31165009)
Criticker does the rating prediction thing really well.
Re:Tell HN: Amazon.com is limiting purchases of Audio CDs to... by fmajid on Tuesday April 26, 2022 @04:36AM (#31165269)
Rate-limit the ratings, not the purchases.
Re:Tell HN: Amazon.com is limiting purchases of Audio CDs to... by gpt5 on Tuesday April 26, 2022 @05:06AM (#31165394)
In this case this is about spiking the CD in the top seller charts / search results. Amazon is limiting purchases due to the increased returns from random buyers who buy it and immediately return. They could probably limit the number of returns to 4 instead of purchases, but it might be complicated legally due to their return policy (i.e. they'd need to update the return policy and inform the customer.)
Re:Tell HN: Amazon.com is limiting purchases of Audio CDs to... by swarnie on Tuesday April 26, 2022 @02:00AM (#31164434)
I dont think i know anyone who's bought a cd in the last 15 years, four per week should last most people a life time.
Re:Tell HN: Amazon.com is limiting purchases of Audio CDs to... by caymanjim on Tuesday April 26, 2022 @03:44AM (#31165013)
I buy CDs because I want to own my music, instead of renting low-quality versions from a company that can unilaterally block my access on a whim, degrades quality with watermarks, includes DRM so I can't listen where I want, and forces me to use their shitty software that only works on half my devices. CDs are often cheaper than renting the vendor-locked versions, and it only takes a couple minutes to rip a high-quality version.

That said, I'll pay even more if they offer high-quality downloads on Bandcamp.

Re:Tell HN: Amazon.com is limiting purchases of Audio CDs to... by ac29 on Tuesday April 26, 2022 @06:53PM (#31174164)
There are services that let you buy music as uncompressed, DRM-free downloads. Qobuz comes to mind.

There isnt much reason to buy a physical disc unless you want the disc itself.

Re:Tell HN: Amazon.com is limiting purchases of Audio CDs to... by dTal on Wednesday April 27, 2022 @07:09AM (#31178502)
And why wouldn't you want the disc? Not only is it (as noted) often cheaper, it's also a durable read-only archival-quality backup. Come to think of it, a pressed CD is probably the best ever consumer technology for that so far. What other medium has safely borne nearly a gigabyte across nearly 40 years, and can still be read in the average office?
Re:Tell HN: Amazon.com is limiting purchases of Audio CDs to... by soco on Tuesday April 26, 2022 @05:25AM (#31165475)
Right! I try though to buy the CDs directly from the artists - when I catch them live even better - in the hope more of that money goes in their pockets like that.
Re:Tell HN: Amazon.com is limiting purchases of Audio CDs to... by blacklion on Tuesday April 26, 2022 @04:19AM (#31165171)
> and it only takes a couple minutes to rip a high-quality version.

Which drive do you use? My specially-selected-for-the-task drive (selected 10 year ago, to be honest, and I don't know what I will do when it dies, all modern drives looks to be crap) with firmware tuned for audio grabbing takes ~1.1x to grab CD, so 45 minutes CD will be grabbed in 1h20m (because you need check pass, of course, to have high-quality version!).

Re:Tell HN: Amazon.com is limiting purchases of Audio CDs to... by dsr_ on Tuesday April 26, 2022 @07:20AM (#31166077)
On a well-made, new-out-of-the-box CD, a modern cheap drive should have no problems ripping at 48x with full CDparanoia checking.

It is much more likely that you will be getting a loudness-war mastering problem than a bad copy of the data. That you can only fix with better source data.

Re:Tell HN: Amazon.com is limiting purchases of Audio CDs to... by blacklion on Tuesday May 03, 2022 @03:56PM (#31252790)
It is completely opposite to my experience, Exact Audio Copy with Secure (not Paranoid) mode, with enabled "defeat audio cache" feature grabs modern new CD on proven SATA LiteOn drive slightly faster than realtime, and slim USB attached drive could spent 3-4x time (0.25x) and fail at the end!

And, yes, old Audio CD (new old stock, 10-15 years old) can be grabbed at 6-8x speed. Looks like new Audio CD pressed much worse than old ones.

I don't believe in 48x exact extraction, sorry.

Re:Tell HN: Amazon.com is limiting purchases of Audio CDs to... by ARandomerDude on Tuesday April 26, 2022 @02:09AM (#31164502)
But you can buy more than one pair of Wolverine meat shredder claws despite the fact that you only have two hands.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01N5U14FA

[dead]
Re:Tell HN: Amazon.com is limiting purchases of Audio CDs to... by jraph on Tuesday April 26, 2022 @02:31AM (#31164619)
And then allows you to lose access to your entire collection of Wolverine meat shredders the day you cancel your subscription (or the service goes out of business). Or silently and suddenly lose access to some of them because of some contract issue between the right holder of these shredders and the service provider.

Or prevents you from using your shredders if you lose your internet connection.

> on any device

I still have a table that won't accept DRM-encumbered Wolverine meat shredders and I would rather not put anything DRM-encumbered on those which could anyway. I also have some tables that are not so widespread but accept standard stuff, but the services won't use the standards.

That's why I go out of my way avoiding any subscription-based Wolverine meat shredder providers.

Re:Tell HN: Amazon.com is limiting purchases of Audio CDs to... by orf on Tuesday April 26, 2022 @04:09AM (#31165125)
What a waste of plastic and resources.

> I also have some tables that are not so widespread but accept standard stuff, but the services won't use the standards.

A chromecast audio is cheap, and so are one of the AirPlay equivalent adapters.

Re:Tell HN: Amazon.com is limiting purchases of Audio CDs to... by jraph on Tuesday April 26, 2022 @05:54AM (#31165606)
Well, I was more arguing against subscription-based services than for CDs.

As a matter of fact, I don't really like CDs and I don't have anything reading them at home. I like my local playlist that I can play offline and randomly. CDs are per album, and I often get bored really fast when listening to the same kind of music for more than a few minutes in a row. I also don't like CDs for the physical place they take and yes, the plastic they require.

I just plug in a jack and here you go. That seems far less wasteful than buying a Chromecast or an AirPlay adapter and streaming all day (from the Internet and/or to the adapter).

A Chromecast. Talk about a waste of plastic and resources. Hundreds of CDs probably don't come even close.

Re:Tell HN: Amazon.com is limiting purchases of Audio CDs to... by k12sosse on Tuesday April 26, 2022 @12:18PM (#31169361)
Chromecast with Google TV is the best streaming device I've ever used, and I've tried a whole landfill worth of alternatives.
Re:Tell HN: Amazon.com is limiting purchases of Audio CDs to... by eadmund on Tuesday April 26, 2022 @08:43AM (#31166754)
Streaming services can delete music from your library, but if you have the CD in your house, the only thing you need to worry about is fire and theft — and if you have remote backups, you needn't worry about that either.

Plus FLAC is audibly better than streaming formats, and disk space is cheap enough these days to store an entire library in FLAC.

Re:Tell HN: Amazon.com is limiting purchases of Audio CDs to... by simion314 on Tuesday April 26, 2022 @02:29AM (#31164608)
Maybe you want to buy someone a gift, maybe you never buy books but know someone that loves books and for their birthday you want to gift them a book series, same with CDs, even if that person does not have a CD player I think they can appreciate a CD/DVD with all artwork and stuff that comes with that.
Re:Tell HN: Amazon.com is limiting purchases of Audio CDs to... by Claude_Shannon on Tuesday April 26, 2022 @03:20AM (#31164890)
I do. I buy CD of the albums I like to collect them.
Re:Tell HN: Amazon.com is limiting purchases of Audio CDs to... by dangravell on Wednesday April 27, 2022 @06:00AM (#31178139)
There are lots of people who still purchase CDs. At least four a week is my normal haul from charity shops!
Re:Tell HN: Amazon.com is limiting purchases of Audio CDs to... by bryanrasmussen on Tuesday April 26, 2022 @03:31AM (#31164938)
Looking through the poster's profile https://news.ycombinator.com/submitted?id=erichocean wow, he sure put in the work to let his SEO spam get through! but you caught them anyway, good job!

imagine, all those years, since 2011 https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=erichocean just to be caught out in the end! that's just heartbreaking.

Re:Tell HN: Amazon.com is limiting purchases of Audio CDs to... by notreallyserio on Tuesday April 26, 2022 @12:46AM (#31164011)
Maybe that's the reason, but it happens if you try to buy any five CDs -- including used CDs. I just verified it by adding five different CDs by five different artists to my cart and then clicking "proceed to checkout".
Re:Tell HN: Amazon.com is limiting purchases of Audio CDs to... by erichocean on Tuesday April 26, 2022 @02:36AM (#31164645)
> Wasn't this because of rating spiking?

Interesting idea, but who the hell buys a used Audio CD due to its Amazon bestseller rank? I sure don't.

I can maybe see SEO spamming (or whatever) for something like USB chargers or HDMI cables or something. A commodity item that people simply want cheap products with good ratings, and otherwise don't care.

But not music. Literally no one buys old used Audio CDs because of the Amazon best seller rank. It's not even on the list of considerations.

Re:Tell HN: Amazon.com is limiting purchases of Audio CDs to... by mxmilkiib on Tuesday April 26, 2022 @02:37AM (#31164652)
Why doesn't Amazon just remove ratings from users that return the items rated if they are good ratings?

I'd highly suspect support folk are saying it's an error because they have no idea what is happening so that counts as an 'error', and "it will get fixed" is a guess/hopeful assumption to fob the user off.

Re:Tell HN: Amazon.com is limiting purchases of Audio CDs to... by t0mas88 on Tuesday April 26, 2022 @03:19AM (#31164880)
It's not about Amazon ratings (stars) on the site, it's about album sales numbers for the "top 100" kind of lists. So they can't really take that back after an album has been top seller in a certain week.
Re:Tell HN: Amazon.com is limiting purchases of Audio CDs to... by tempnow987 on Tuesday April 26, 2022 @12:37PM (#31169621)
People review bomb competitors, so you buy a product from a competitor and rate it a zero, say it burst into fire etc (was popular when battery fires were in the news). The popularity spiking is to get folks higher up on charts etc. Away from the top few it's pretty easy to get up (for a few days).
Re:Tell HN: Amazon.com is limiting purchases of Audio CDs to... by erichocean on Tuesday April 26, 2022 @02:49AM (#31164720)
I though that about support too, that's why I posted here.

I'm certain it is unintended, but who knows if anyone in a position to fix it at Amazon is even aware of the issue. The front page of HN is a great way to give it some visibility…

Re:Tell HN: Amazon.com is limiting purchases of Audio CDs to... by nowherebeen on Tuesday April 26, 2022 @01:27AM (#31164256)
How could 1 person buying cds do that? You can only leave 1 review per purchase. That only works if multiple people buy the same cd and even then, it would not hit the limit.
Re:Tell HN: Amazon.com is limiting purchases of Audio CDs to... by Beltalowda on Tuesday April 26, 2022 @01:33AM (#31164280)
You have a "best sellers" category, so I assume they're targetting that(?)

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/bestsellers/music

Re:Tell HN: Amazon.com is limiting purchases of Audio CDs to... by erichocean on Tuesday April 26, 2022 @02:58AM (#31164776)
Literally no one on Earth cares about the current value of the best seller rank of a used CD for some random 80s band.

The whole SEO spammer idea for used music CDs doesn't pass the smell test. There's only a few copies available to buy for most used CDs anyway (if you're lucky), so there's no way to pull off the scam.

Re:Tell HN: Amazon.com is limiting purchases of Audio CDs to... by ars on Tuesday April 26, 2022 @12:41AM (#31163989)
But why is it 4 cd's in total, rather than 4 of one kind?
Re:Tell HN: Amazon.com is limiting purchases of Audio CDs to... by erichocean on Tuesday April 26, 2022 @03:00AM (#31164793)
Well, honestly, most used Audio CDs don't even have four copies to buy. I'm happy if there's one.

The SEO spammer idea sounds good for other products (e.g. USB chargers, HDMI cables, etc.) but used Audio CDs ain't one of them. You can't even pull of the scam because there isn't enough product to do it.

Re:Tell HN: Amazon.com is limiting purchases of Audio CDs to... by blondin on Tuesday April 26, 2022 @12:20AM (#31163903)
i have never considered or heard of this. the more you know...
Re:Tell HN: Amazon.com is limiting purchases of Audio CDs to... by tempnow987 on Tuesday April 26, 2022 @12:23AM (#31163915)
I think it worked because you could buy a lot of CD's each week on behalf of folks who needed the ratings bump, then when the 30 days were up you could return them. So amazon was covering labor and shipping both ways on large quantities of these - stock, then pick and ship, then dealing with the returns and restock etc.

Of course I hope the account would get canceled, but based on other areas these folks seem able to create reasonable numbers of accounts.

Re:Tell HN: Amazon.com is limiting purchases of Audio CDs to... by erichocean on Tuesday April 26, 2022 @02:45AM (#31164698)
The problem is that no one on Earth buys used music CDs due to the Amazon.com best seller ranks. The whole SEO spammer idea is nonsensical in this case, and I highly doubt Amazon is trying to target SEO spammers buying thousands of copies of used Audio CDs. I'm like 99.9% certain it's a mistake.

USB chargers? HDMI cables? Sure, I'd buy your SEO spammer theory that people are messing with the product rankings somehow.

But not used music CDs. You search Amazon for the used CD you already know you want, pray they have even one copy, then buy it. I don't think in 20+ years of buying CDs online, I've ever looked at a best seller rank.

But the real problem with your theory is that there aren't many copies of these things! Certainly not "thousands" as you implied. There's like…two (if you're lucky, a lot of times Amazon doesn't have any 3rd party sellers and you have to check eBay or whatever). I don't see how buying two used CDs, then returning them 30 days later to a 3rd party seller, helps anything with the best seller ranking.

Re:Tell HN: Amazon.com is limiting purchases of Audio CDs to... by tempnow987 on Tuesday April 26, 2022 @12:40PM (#31169652)
Sorry, if this was just used / out of production CD's then I'm probably wrong.

However, this IS an issue in everything from book lists (which predate Amazon actually and happen outside of amazon with bulk book buys) to I thought regular music "sales" which have become easier to manipulate because total unit sales are low (given streaming etc etc).

Re:Tell HN: Amazon.com is limiting purchases of Audio CDs to... by aaron695 on Tuesday April 26, 2022 @01:19AM (#31164214)
> Wasn't this because of rating spiking?

No. It's obviously a bug.

Perhaps related to ratings (There's also chart spiking which is uniquely CDs, which would also have high Amazon returns) . A 40 limit accidently got set to 4 perhaps on Friday. I can't see a customer returning 100% of their CD's lasting long so perhaps it's a limit normally on new customers. Often the same CD has limits around 4.

Or maybe the bug is related to a different limiting mechanism. An engineer set a limit to all CDs not just the one that's in demand perhaps, which they do set for limited stock.

> Is hacker news now the place SEO spammers go to get support?

Why not?

Re:Tell HN: Amazon.com is limiting purchases of Audio CDs to... by sophacles on Tuesday April 26, 2022 @09:52AM (#31167460)
Someone wanting to buy more than 4 CDs is enough for you to call them an SEO spammer?

If I want to buy a 6 disc boxed set, does that qualify me as an SEO spammer too?

wtf is wrong with you?