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Re:Twitter set to accept Musk's $43B offer – sources by Miner49er on Monday April 25, 2022 @09:50AM (#31154682)
As another commenter pointed out, it actually doesn't matter too much what the users want, from a business perspective.

Twitter's true customers are its advertisers. It's who pays. And they are even less likely then the normal person to want an "everything that isn't illegal is allowed" approach. Advertisers don't want their ads seen next to hate speech and certain other types of speech.

It's been clear that Reddit and YouTube have been censoring at the behest of advertisers for years, and I don't think Twitter is or will be any different.

Re:Twitter set to accept Musk's $43B offer – sources by CharlesW on Monday April 25, 2022 @09:56AM (#31154781)
> As another commenter pointed out, it actually doesn't matter too much what the users want, from a business perspective. Twitter's true customers are its advertisers.

Users matter the most because if non-toxic users flee the platform, Twitter has no value to advertisers.

Re:Twitter set to accept Musk's $43B offer – sources by dundarious on Monday April 25, 2022 @11:15AM (#31156037)
Sketchy pornographic websites do have advertisers, just extremely low value ones. Twitter wants to maintain a pleasant environment for the medium to high value advertisers, because advertisers are its revenue stream, and primarily it is not an ideological entity, it is a profit seeking one. Ideology is a variable in the equation, but it is primarily and significantly bound by profit seeking.

So first, users are one of the major levers to keep valuable advertisers happy -- not the only one, but also not the only significant one, and they are purely instrumental. Second, Twitter does not want a negative public perception, along the lines of cable news, or much worse, 4chan. The former loses you a subset of a subset of the market and is a constant PR/lobbying headache, the latter loses most medium to high value advertisers altogether and is an existential regulatory threat. In almost no way is the worry that the toxic environment would be a subjectively bad experience for users.

Before Parler was banned from the App store (and before it was re-instated after more moderation was added), its stated policy was roughly to moderate strictly to what's within the bounds of the law, albeit with some significant inconsistencies especially around pornography and nudity. I used it during this time, and it was extremely common to see a lot of seemingly intentionally hateful but legal use of the n-word, etc. P&G, Nestle, etc., don't want to associate their brands with an environment like that. Obviously Apple didn't either.

It's important to always keep these realities in mind for all corporate action. Take Jack Dorsey's bluesky initiative[1], which many viewed in purely ideological or technical terms. My personal opinion is that it was either a way to counter negative PR ("Twitter is a moderated node that's profitable, but technically you can choose another node that's toxic and unprofitable but with less moderation, and good luck with that...", where Twitter gains all the "free speech" PR benefit with none of the significant costs), or a low cost self-soothing action to assuage pangs of guilt for instituting some policies he didn't personally agree with, with the important part that it is designed with a hard constraint to do nothing to negatively affect profits. So it's just an escape hatch for PR or personal angst.

[1] https://twitter.com/jack/status/1204766078468911106

Re:Twitter set to accept Musk's $43B offer – sources by robonerd on Monday April 25, 2022 @12:41PM (#31157366)
> Sketchy pornographic websites do have advertisers, just extremely low value ones.

Somehow other websites with copious amounts of pornographic content, like twitter and reddit, get a pass on this "sketchy" characterization.

Re:Twitter set to accept Musk's $43B offer – sources by dundarious on Monday April 25, 2022 @01:25PM (#31158013)
There are non-sketchy pornographic websites, which is why the adjective pairing "sketchy pornographic" is not redundant.
Re:Twitter set to accept Musk's $43B offer – sources by robonerd on Monday April 25, 2022 @01:48PM (#31158296)
> There are non-sketchy pornographic websites

Maybe, but twitter and reddit are not among them. Both are known for hosting very extreme content.

Re:Twitter set to accept Musk's $43B offer – sources by dundarious on Monday April 25, 2022 @02:20PM (#31158708)
I think we're mostly disagreeing on the meaning of sketchy, but it has many meanings. I'm using it to mean "legally dubious, in the sense of being full of scams, blatantly false promises, malware, etc." (I'm also ignoring issues around copied/pirated content). I'm sure Twitter contains some of the above, but they try to minimize/eliminate it.

But I think this is all a distraction from what I was trying to convey -- my point doesn't depend on getting to the bottom of what is meant by "sketchy". Just define X to be some kind of website that has extremely low value advertisers (scammers, etc.):

> [X] websites do have advertisers, just extremely low value ones. Twitter wants to maintain a pleasant environment for the medium to high value advertisers, [...]

Re:Twitter set to accept Musk's $43B offer – sources by SketchySeaBeast on Monday April 25, 2022 @10:08AM (#31154984)
Do toxic users not need to buy things?
Re:Twitter set to accept Musk's $43B offer – sources by agentdrtran on Monday April 25, 2022 @10:37AM (#31155469)
What are the ads like on 4chan or truth social?
Re:Twitter set to accept Musk's $43B offer – sources by shitlord on Monday April 25, 2022 @04:18PM (#31160029)
I opened /g/ in incognito mode without an ad blocker, and I was actually surprised by the ads. There are no lowest common denominator "horny babes near you" ads or viagra ads. But there are ads for a crypto lottery, ads for a cryptocurrency, ads for a niche forum, etc. These aren't that different from the shitcoin ads on Twitter or reddit.

Then I opened /wg/ and there were anime porn ads.

Re:Twitter set to accept Musk's $43B offer – sources by skrbjc on Monday April 25, 2022 @03:07PM (#31159275)
On 4chan it's mostly ads for other 4chan boards, lol
Re:Twitter set to accept Musk's $43B offer – sources by fundad on Monday April 25, 2022 @01:37PM (#31158155)
lots of Sheep drench
Re:Twitter set to accept Musk's $43B offer – sources by kjkjadksj on Monday April 25, 2022 @07:42PM (#31162296)
Nontoxic users have lower engagement than toxic users. Advertisers want to see average time on site go up and a good way to do that is with rage bait or all the other nonsense they’ve been pumping into these networks for years.
Re:Twitter set to accept Musk's $43B offer – sources by AtreidesTyrant on Monday April 25, 2022 @10:09AM (#31154993)
facebook disagrees with you
Re:Twitter set to accept Musk's $43B offer – sources by citilife on Monday April 25, 2022 @09:57AM (#31154809)
That's simply not true. Think of a slightly different model.

> We don't want our advertisements to be shown next to posts that do X, Y or Z

That's effectively, the same as

> We want to see our advertisements by A, B and C

Just give advertisers different options.

Further, Twitter advertisements aren't much different than billboards. Do you worry about the politics / optics of the drivers or even protesters beneath the the billboards in a city? No, of course not, you just want people to buy your products. Do people care, no.

It's all fake outrage, trust me people will still buy Coke or Pepsi even if someone sees something distasteful while doom scrolling.

In terms of general "toxicity" there's already blocking users, but allow users to "avoid topics" if they need their safe spaces. Then as a business, let users "pay to avoid topics" as it'll require some hand curation -- boom. More money for twitter, more users on the platform, everyone wins.

Re:Twitter set to accept Musk's $43B offer – sources by Cthulhu_ on Monday April 25, 2022 @10:05AM (#31154946)
That only really applies if you believe the advertisers see Twitter as a neatly divided entity, but they don't; they'll see it as a site that does A, B, C, X, Y and Z, all of the above.

And if an advertiser pays a service that, for example, shows terrorist propaganda, then they could be seen as funding and supporting terrorism.

Better to not take the risk. This was another reason why the credit card companies and / or payment providers pulled out (hehe) of Pornhub; they did not verify the age or consent of the people involved, thus were the payment providers complicit in perpetuating this. It would have been morally unjust to keep funneling money into PH if they didn't do anything against them. Not that the payment processors can claim much moral high ground, generally speaking, but you know what I mean.

Re:Twitter set to accept Musk's $43B offer – sources by citilife on Monday April 25, 2022 @10:17AM (#31155147)
> if you believe the advertisers see Twitter as a neatly divided entity, but they don't

This is a PR problem and fixable.

Further, this is an issue with advertisers. As Elon is proposing, have people pay to get verified ($5 / year or something). Further, as I mentioned, you can "pay to avoid topics" (have users label / flag stuff they don't want in their topic, like they do now generally for breaking the rules) and advertisers can select topics to promote on AND topics to not promote next to.

The reality, is Twitter would then get a large segment of revenue outside of advertising AND advertisers would feel more confident -- boosting revenue from both sides.

> This was another reason why the credit card companies and / or payment providers pulled out (hehe) of Pornhub

This is different, the advertisers didn't pull out of Pornhub, payment processors did. Twitter could probably lose half it's advertisers short term, but if they grew the user base they'd make more money long-term. Advertisers buy eyes not virtues. Yes, a bad post next to an ad is somewhat damaging, when your choices are literally: Twitter, Google, Facebook; are you really going to cut one of your 3 choices? Not long-term.

Re:Twitter set to accept Musk's $43B offer – sources by phphphphp on Monday April 25, 2022 @09:59AM (#31154843)
You’re totally naive to how advertising works, just look at how quickly advertisers abandoned YouTube following the wall street journal reporting.

From an advertiser perspective, if Twitter allows nazis, advertisers will be funding the distribution of nazi content — UI framing means nothing.

Re:Twitter set to accept Musk's $43B offer – sources by citilife on Monday April 25, 2022 @10:11AM (#31155027)
Re:Twitter set to accept Musk's $43B offer – sources by phphphphp on Monday April 25, 2022 @10:16AM (#31155131)
You’re proving the point: following abandonment, YouTube took a hard line against the content and advertisers returned.
Re:Twitter set to accept Musk's $43B offer – sources by citilife on Monday April 25, 2022 @10:22AM (#31155219)
> just look at how quickly advertisers abandoned YouTube following the wall street journal reporting.

There's not a chart anywhere I can find that shows advertisers reducing their spending on youtube. I "articles" (potentially paid for advertisments) claiming that was happening; but as far as I'm aware, there's no evidence that it made a material difference.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/289658/youtube-global-ne...

Unfortunately, the data wasn't public during the controversy; so it's not really clear besides anecdotal virtue signaling by companies.

Re:Twitter set to accept Musk's $43B offer – sources by phphphphp on Monday April 25, 2022 @11:06AM (#31155906)
There’s lots of evidence around from people reporting their YouTube revenue falling 80%+. At the time it was colloquially known as the “adpocalypse” so you can find lots of evidence associated with that search term.
Re:Twitter set to accept Musk's $43B offer – sources by CydeWeys on Monday April 25, 2022 @10:05AM (#31154943)
> Just give advertisers different options.

It's hard to explain how much you're understating the difficulty in doing this. It would likely require AGI to do this well. Until then, advertisers buy ads on entire platforms (like a given TV network), and they have to rely on the platform to ensure that the content is advertiser-friendly.

Re:Twitter set to accept Musk's $43B offer – sources by wasmitnetzen on Monday April 25, 2022 @10:03AM (#31154899)
It doesn't matter what the users think. The companies clearly care what kind of content their ads are placed next to.
Re:Twitter set to accept Musk's $43B offer – sources by CydeWeys on Monday April 25, 2022 @10:02AM (#31154891)
> Twitter's true customers are its advertisers. It's who pays. And they are even less likely then the normal person to want an "everything that isn't illegal is allowed" approach. Advertisers don't want their ads seen next to hate speech and certain other types of speech.

Hell, advertisers don't want their ads to be seen next to Elon's current Twitter feed ( https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1517707521343082496 ), let alone what Twitter will look like in a year after everyone starts posting using the owner's timeline as example.

Re:Twitter set to accept Musk's $43B offer – sources by Karawebnetwork on Monday April 25, 2022 @03:18PM (#31159383)
> As another commenter pointed out, it actually doesn't matter too much what the users want, from a business perspective.

Looking back at Tumblr, I'd say that's not a rule.

Re:Twitter set to accept Musk's $43B offer – sources by Miner49er on Monday April 25, 2022 @03:22PM (#31159431)
True, but wasn't the porn ban to appease advertisers to try and actually make Tumblr profitable? Of course it probably failed, but it seems like it may have been a no-win situation.
Re:Twitter set to accept Musk's $43B offer – sources by drcross on Monday April 25, 2022 @10:10AM (#31155018)
> Twitter's true customers are its advertisers.

You're basing your assumption that advertisers will be the main source of revenue in the future.

Re:Twitter set to accept Musk's $43B offer – sources by notreallyserio on Monday April 25, 2022 @10:58AM (#31155779)
It's true. However, if toxic users drive out all the non-toxic users, will those toxic users pay real money for the platform? Will they even remain at all if they can't get the reactions they (seem to) thrive on?
Re:Twitter set to accept Musk's $43B offer – sources by tested23 on Monday April 25, 2022 @09:58AM (#31154822)
Twitter literally has hookers and other sex workers on the platform. If advertisers really cared about brand safety they would have already left.
Re:Twitter set to accept Musk's $43B offer – sources by richardwhiuk on Monday April 25, 2022 @10:05AM (#31154927)
Advertisers care that the market doesn't primarily see that as the point of twitter - i.e. the average user doesn't think that Twitter is primarily about that.
Re:Twitter set to accept Musk's $43B offer – sources by edgyquant on Monday April 25, 2022 @10:05AM (#31154935)
Incorrect, advertisers very much care about brand safety this is like saying mathematicians don’t care about numbers. It’s the foundation of the craft