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Re:Primer: Statistical Armour by dragontamer on Friday April 15, 2022 @11:57AM (#31041701)
You can't stop a Javelin. Its too sophisticated. If a Javelin is launched your tank is dead.

> and of course RPG has no top-attack (unless you're firing from a building, which as we've seen is tricky to get it to arm in time)

These tanks were planning to assault Kyiv. The assumption was that cheaper RPGs (such as the AT4) would be used against these tanks. The AT4 isn't designed to be used vs main-battle-tanks (AT4 has penetration of 450mm), the frontal-armor is too thick (500mm to 700mm effective frontal armor, depending on the tank, depending on the angle the attack hits from... Largely due to geometry, not physical thickness). But the "cope-cage" might be strong enough to deflect an attack against the turret (especially if the AT4 is "top down", because it was fired from an urban building).

There's many, many, many weapons of war. There are many different types of "anti-armor" weapons.

The Russians also know that the turret has the critical weakpoint of the tank: the autoloader. If the autoloader is hit, the entire tank's munitions blow up simultaneously (aka: cooks off), and everyone inside the tank dies. Protecting the turret with a "cope cage" (even if ineffective vs Javelins) to try and mitigate damage from other RPGs (AT4, RPG7, Panzerfaust 3) just makes sense.

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Javelins are the most expensive man-portable anti-tank weapon. There's relatively few of them (yes, I know USA sent thousands of Javelins, but we also sent far more simpler anti-tank weapons as well). Javelins are $170,000 per shot, and the AT4 is $1500.

The other man-portable weapon discussed, NLAWs, are like $40,000, much cheaper than a Javelin but still an incredibly sophisticated and expensive weapon.

Media ignores the cheap stuff (AT4, RPG7) because they're not really interesting. But those are probably the workhorses and the more common weapon in the battlefield.

Re:Primer: Statistical Armour by blamazon on Friday April 15, 2022 @12:23PM (#31042081)
Also in use in Ukraine presently are the Stugna-P, a domestically produced antitank weapon [1] as well as the German Panzerfaust 3 [2]. In the footage available online, the infantry are carrying a surprising quantity of all these types of weapons - It's a quirky group of antitank weapons from a bunch of different countries. There are videos circulating in Ukraine on how to use the more foreign systems. [3] [4]

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skif_(anti-tank_guided_missile...

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panzerfaust_3

[3] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQThjNgoQRY

[4] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LUDrLFrfr_s

Re:Primer: Statistical Armour by dragontamer on Friday April 15, 2022 @12:32PM (#31042198)
Stugna-P, Javelin, and NLAW all kinda have the same properties. They're large, bulky, and filled with a LOT of explosives. They also have a guidance system: laser for Stugna-P, some kind of computer for NLAW/Javelin, so these weapons can be shot at 1000 meters to 5000 meters and still hit their targets consistently.

But since they're larger / heavier / more expensive, they are the primary-weapon of the soldier (or squad, in the case of Stugna-P). If you're equipped with one of these, your job is to kill tanks.

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Panzerfaust, AT4, RPG7 are variants of the same concept. They're more of a "sidearm" than anything. You don't really want to be facing down a tank with one. They are manually aimed and therefore only effective at 100m to 300m (depending on how good your aim is).

Because they're smaller warheads (84-caliber for the AT4, yes its a pun/joke), they're less effective at penetrating armor. So you really want to use them vs lighter vehicles, such as IFVs instead of proper tanks. If you need to use it against a tank, you should aim for a weak point, like shooting from above, or hitting the side/rear armor.

So your snipers / riflemen / machine gunners have a job, that's the 50-cal, or machine-gun. But what if they come across an enemy vehicle? Well, the AT4 / Panzerfaust are light enough to carry _WITH_ your other weapons. Its better than nothing, and light enough to be a secondary weapon.

Alternatively, maybe you're in an environment where hitting the weak top-armor is possible (ex: Urban / high-rise building in Kyiv). Giving many, many cheap AT4 weapons out to the crowd of defenders will effectively kill even main-battle-tanks, if they are attacked at the proper angles / from their weakpoints.

Re:Primer: Statistical Armour by chrisseaton on Friday April 15, 2022 @12:52PM (#31042501)
> Stugna-P, Javelin, and NLAW all kinda have the same properties. They're large, bulky, and filled with a LOT of explosives.

This is a very common mis-conception. These weapons don't have a lot of explosive. They instead rely on very precise application of a little explosive, through an EFP design.

If you see a Javelin or NLAW hit an inert target, it's very modest. If you see a big explosion in a demo it's because they've filled it with fuel!

Re:Primer: Statistical Armour by dragontamer on Friday April 15, 2022 @01:02PM (#31042622)
The AT4 is 15 lbs weapon.

Javelin is a 50 lbs weapon. Sure, some of that weight is computer and night-vision. But most of that weight difference is explosives (I assume the 2nd tandem charge in particular).

NLAW is 28lbs, somewhere in-between.

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Tandem charges (dual-explosives: first explosion disables reactive armor, second explosion penetrates the tank) basically means carrying 2x warheads with every warhead... its weight and heavy.

Each of those Javelin explosions you see is __TWO__ explosions, timed carefully to defeat Russian reactive armor. Its a sophisticated weapon for sure, but you still have to physically carry all those extra explosives somewhere.

Re:Primer: Statistical Armour by chrisseaton on Friday April 15, 2022 @01:13PM (#31042769)
> Javelin is a 50 lbs weapon. Sure, some of that weight is computer and night-vision. But most of that weight difference is explosives (I assume the 2nd tandem charge in particular).

No most of it is the motor. The entire warhead of Javelin weight just 8.4 kg. That's the entire warhead - not just the explosive. An EFP contains a lot of 'inert' metal that gets formed into a projectile.

(Can we not use pounds in a technical military discussion, lol.)

Re:Primer: Statistical Armour by dragontamer on Friday April 15, 2022 @01:21PM (#31042869)
> The entire warhead of Javelin weight just 8.4 kg. That's the entire warhead - not just the explosive.

And the entire AT4 weapon (including the sling, the barrel, warhead... everything) is 6.7kg.

Javelin is a big boy. Reaching the limits of what people can carry effectively, especially if you need a 2nd or 3rd shot to do your job.

EDIT: I think RPG7 is like 3kg for the rocket AND explosives, 8.5kg for the entire weapon.

EDIT2: So yeah, you can carry 3x AT4 for the same weight as 1x Javelin.

Re:Primer: Statistical Armour by agapon on Friday April 15, 2022 @02:43PM (#31044069)
> The entire warhead of Javelin weight just 8.4 kg. That's the entire warhead - not just the explosive.

"just"

Re:Primer: Statistical Armour by PeterisP on Friday April 15, 2022 @12:49PM (#31042463)
I think that out of all the weapons only the javelin strikes from the top of the tank while flying over it, everything else is a direct fire missile that will hit the tank from the side.

So a 'cage device' on top of the turret seems to be intended solely for Javelins, since every other weapon simply won't strike from that direction.

Re:Primer: Statistical Armour by praptak on Friday April 15, 2022 @01:16PM (#31042819)
NLAW also strikes from the top, just not exactly like the Javelin.

The latter does that by having a steep trajectory. The NLAW just flies horizontally over the tank, then fires down vertically. It also has the other mode where it just hits directly head on.

Re:Primer: Statistical Armour by dragontamer on Friday April 15, 2022 @12:50PM (#31042480)
> everything else is a direct fire missile that will hit the tank from the side

Kyiv has skyscrapers. A dumb RPG (AT4 or RPG7) fired from the 5th story of a building will hit from the top down... onto the weaker top-armor of a tank.

NLAWs are also top-attack weapons btw.

Re:Primer: Statistical Armour by abra0 on Friday April 15, 2022 @04:37PM (#31045516)
Javelin rockets are $80k-$100k a piece, $170k figure is the launcher and the rocket together. Unlike NLAW the launcher is reusable (and even useful on its own because the targeting unit is detachable and has thermal vision)
Re:Primer: Statistical Armour by xarope on Friday April 15, 2022 @07:54PM (#31047442)
That's a good point. Just like the best tool to use is the one you have at the time, mobile infantry would be more than likely to have AT4s only. I vaguely remember a section of 9-12 men would carry only two AT4 equivalents, and we were supposed to use both against the same target.

Once the tanks get bogged down, then anti-tank platoons would be deployed with the heavier gear.

Re:Primer: Statistical Armour by chrisseaton on Friday April 15, 2022 @12:04PM (#31041786)
I wonder who started calling them 'Javelin cages'?
Re:Primer: Statistical Armour by frickinLasers on Saturday April 16, 2022 @03:36PM (#31055397)
nitpick--The AT4 is a recoil-less round with the propelling charge in the launch tube--not a Rocket-Propelled Grenade. I imaging firing one from inside a building would be a regrettable decision.
Re:Primer: Statistical Armour by chipsa on Saturday April 16, 2022 @03:58PM (#31055586)
Nit: RPG didn't stand for rocket propelled grenade. It's a Russian acronym: Ruchnoy Protivotankovy Granatomyot.