> When people have different standards, they need to communicate and work together to solve problems in a mutually acceptable way.

I agree! I don't mean to imply that the "relaxed" standard is better than the "tidy" standard. But my point is that the husband was not being hypocritical. He was not expecting his wife to keep the house to the "tidy" standard while himself only meeting the "relaxed" standard (which is what rhacker implicitly accused).

> This is a sexist assumption which denies the woman individual agency.

Yes, I made a generalization. I've never met the man or the woman involved, so I don't know their specific circumstances. It would have been more accurate for me to say something like "it's probably coming from an expectation of femininity that she's internalized", or "many women in the US today internalize an expectation of femininity that prioritizes tidiness". Obviously not every woman is tidy and not every man is relaxed, but there's a definite trend towards women being tidier than men, and that trend comes from internalized gender norms.

This kind of generalization is very common in discussions about gender on the Internet. For example, rhacker's parent comment made a similar generalization, as did your comment about "rich middle-aged white men" a few days ago. [1] I don't think my generalization was any worse than those; I just flipped the genders by making a generalization about women instead of a generalization about men.

I think there's a deeper discussion here about "if personal preferences arise from internalized gender norms, does that mean the preferences are invalid?" You seemed to interpret my comment as saying that her preference for tidiness was somehow invalid because it came from internalized femininity. I didn't intend that; I think that personal preferences arising from internalized femininity (_and internalized masculinity_) are perfectly valid.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30977147&p=3#30979367

I've never heard of men complaining about their female partners being untidy with household things except in the case where they simply do nothing (and that's rare), is that common where you are.

My father did all the washing up in our house growing up, and mum did most of the cooking, but he never once annotated me for leaving dirty dishes whilst my mother regularly would complain.

Almost every married woman I know fits the stereotype of being more houseproud than their husbands (I'm in the UK).

You call it sexist, but it seems to reflect a genuine sex-based divide.

Anecdotal evidence as it is, I'd like to vouch for the fact that I am usually the "mother" in this scenario. Dirty dishes being left out drives me nuts, especially if it's overnight. When I wake up and come out of the bedroom to a clean house, I'm relaxed. Waking up to a house with dishes still around from the night before can set a baseline stressed (need to do this still) mood for a hefty chunk of my day.

On the other end, my girlfriend doesn't seem to mind at all. She does when it gets very messy, but the minor ones don't bother her like it does me. The author's mindset regarding dishes in the above article does remind a bit of her as well.

I'm the one who is fine with a few dishes left overnight while my wife dislikes it but not enough to clean them herself (normally dish washing is my responsibility). We found a decent compromise by putting in a bigger, deeper sink when we remodeled our kitchen. Now a couple of glasses and bowls left overnight aren't really even visible until you are standing directly over the sink.

My anxiety manifests in similar ways. I "do the dishes" (or whatever annoying task it is that tweaks my anxiety in the morning) before I wind down for the night. I take control of my own happiness.

I finished work around two hours before my ex. I'd get home, clean the house to my standards, declutter and only then be able to relax after work when the space was in order.

They'd get home from work later, and to relax immediately discard laptop, jacket, shoes, mail around the house, get changed and leave work clothes on the floor, start making a snack and leave plates in the kitchen before I was about to make dinner.

We contributed equally towards costs of living, so there was no 'breadwinner' power imbalance, just a fundamentally different expectation of how our living space should be used. I never found a way to reconcile this.

> I never found a way to reconcile this.

I guess one sane way is to hire someone to tidy up the house on a daily basis and share the cost.

I am have found that since I started working from home due to covid, a neat house is much more important to me. It makes me anxious being in a house all day that is a mess. And I have become the one who bugs my wife to please pick up after herself more.

I wonder if women traditionally spending more time at home is the cause of this gender difference.

My guess is there is a "feng shui" side to cleanliness, tripping over clothes or having a sink full of dishes is more likely to affect you if you are in contact with it more often.

But also i think there is a biological reason. Mothers notice dangers to young children more, as on an evolutionary time scale they were responsible for protecting a child from birth, when the child is most vulnerable.

Keeping things clean stops any nasty avoidable accidents.

I have the same theory on women having been selected for caring about their environment.

I see that as an argument for choosing traditional gender roles because it seems to me that one of the main causes of conflict in 50/50 relationships are these arguments about chores, tidiness, etc.

Splitting chores 50/50 seems like asking for trouble given that men and women have evolved differently in this regard - he ends up feeling that she's endlessly nagging him, she ends up feeling that she has to manage him like a child.

Seems like the traditional breadwinner/homemaker setup would be a solution to this problem.

In my relationship it's the other way around so there goes your theory.

> I've never heard of men complaining about their female partners being untidy with household things

Know him? Of course I know him. He's me.

> it seems to reflect a genuine sex-based divide.

You seem to have an extraordinarily limited and homogenous social circle.

Well let me be a data point to the contrary for you.

Wow. I never considered this before:

Explaining certain kinds of behavior as the result of society-wide (patriarchaic) conditioning may be sexist itself, because it denies the womans individual agancy.

It is generally rude in Western cultures to assume that someone is being controlled by something outside of their own volition, ie, to imply that they have less than full agency. This is most likely borne out of the Enlightenment era and its emphasis on the ideal of individuals carving out their own destinies as the highest moral pursuit.

I personally think we will have to contend with the present and future of neuroscience research that investigates the distinction between which wills are truly free and which are conditioned on past experiences.

All that to say, however, that 'sexist is as sexist does'. If such language as in GP is used to denigrate the position of the woman in this disagreement by casting her as a nuisance to be managed externally, then that is sexist, because she is no longer afforded a voice in the discussion but is instead reduced to an object to be manipulated, the primary reason for this being her gender.

But I wouldn't recommend trying to close an argument by saying "Hey honey, I think you've been brainwashed by patriarchy. Don't you think we should try to challenge established hygiene and gender norms with this dirty glass standing as act of protest?"

You can point out / criticize trends and large-scale causes without stereotyping people or turning a trend into inescapable destiny.

In general by explaining behavior by societal trends you're removing agency. To say women are making their choices because of the way they're influenced is to say women cannot make independent choices without being swayed by outside influences. It's kind of a paradoxical thing

What human being on the planet can make choices without being swayed by outside influences?