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Re:Playing with DALL-E 2 by PheonixPharts on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @08:38PM (#31009899)
It's interesting because for me it's the opposite. I feel DALL-E 2 is the clear evidence that we're headed for the next AI-Winter soon.

Don't get me wrong, DALL-E is remarkable. But it's remarkable in almost the exact same way ELIZA was remarkable in 1966, and Markov Chain generative models were in the 1990s. All of these, given the context computational powers at the time, were both miracles and parlor tricks at the same time.

The trouble is that these demos are impressive, but not much has changed in how the world works. I work in AI/ML and every places I've seen the practical applications of these techniques has ranged the equivalent to adding sprinkles on a cake, to completely useless engineering nightmares that would ultimately create more value with their removal.

Yea, a 3.5 billion parameter model is neat, but we know that in 1970 when we couldn't imagine training such a thing. The problem is that we've made essentially no progresses other than showing when you pour incredible human and physical resources into a pot the result looks cool.

But when you do the accounting, and ask yourself "what has really changed with all these fantastic innovations in machine learning" the answer is surprisingly little.

Dall-E 2 is the type of cool that will be figure 12-3 in a undergrad textbook in 20 years. Students will go "oh that's cool" and turn the page.

Re:Playing with DALL-E 2 by rndphs on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @09:36PM (#31010286)
I think the failures of people spouting hype and failing to deliver in ML has absolutely nothing to do with the real and immense progress which is happening in the field concurrently. I don't understand how one can look at GPT-3, DALL-E2, alpha go, alpha fold, etc and think hmmm... this is evidence of an AI winter. A balanced reading of the season imo suggests that we are in the brightest AI summer and there is no sign of even autumn coming. At least on the research side of things.
Re:Playing with DALL-E 2 by 314 on Wednesday April 13, 2022 @01:18AM (#31011440)
The difference between the two views could be summarized in a textbook intro from twenty years ago: here is a list of problems that are not (now) AI. Back then it would have included chess, checkers and other games that were researched for their potential to lead to AI. In the end they all fell to specific methods that did not provide general progress. While the current progress on image related problems is great, if it does not lead to general advances then an AI winter will follow.
Re:Playing with DALL-E 2 by spupe on Wednesday April 13, 2022 @01:52AM (#31011594)
I disagree. If we find a particular architecture is good for Chess, and another for image generation, then so be it. We would still have solved important problems. We are seeing both general and specific approaches improving rapidly. I don't think the AI winter was defined by a failure to reach AGI, but rather that they reached a Plateau and produced nothing of great commercial or even intellectual value for some years, while other computer science fields thrived. I would say the situation is the exact opposite right now.
Re:Playing with DALL-E 2 by nl on Wednesday April 13, 2022 @06:19PM (#31021001)
> Back then it would have included chess, checkers and other games that were researched for their potential to lead to AI.

20 years ago (2002) Deep Blue had beating reigning world chess champion Kasparaov was old news.

Unsolved problems were things like unconstrained speech-to-text, image understanding, open question answering on text etc. Playing video games wasn't a problem that was even being considered.

I was working in an adjacent field at the time, and at that point it was unclear if any of these would ever be solved.

> In the end they all fell to specific methods that did not provide general progress.

In the end they all fell to deep neural networks, with basically all progress being made since the 2014 ImageNet revolution where it was proven possible to train deep networks on GPUs.

Now, all these things are possible with the same NN architecture (Transformers), and in a few cases these are done in the same NN (eg DALL-E 2 both understands images and text. It's possible to extract parts of the trained NN and get human-level performance on both image and text understanding tasks).

> While the current progress on image related problems is great, if it does not lead to general advances then an AI winter will follow.

"current progress on image related problems is great" - it's much more broad than that.

"if it does not lead to general advances" - it has.

Re:Playing with DALL-E 2 by gwern on Wednesday April 13, 2022 @12:45PM (#31016924)
A very telling example, since we now have methods like Player of Games which apply a single general method to solve chess, checkers, ALE, DMLab-30, poker, Scotland Yard... And the diffusion models behind DALL-E apply to generative modeling of pretty much everything, whether audio or text or image or multimodal.
Re:Playing with DALL-E 2 by blinding-streak on Wednesday April 13, 2022 @08:25AM (#31013808)
Crawl, walk, run. You can't go directly from crawl to run. You need the intermediate steps (pun not intended)
Re:Playing with DALL-E 2 by nahuel0x on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @09:02PM (#31010067)
I think you are totally, totally wrong. This is a turning point. Artificial Imagination is just going to revolutionize all content generation, arts and designing. It will expand to video/VR generation and the input prompts probably will came from realtime neurofeedback. And not to mention what fantastic tool will become to explore the humanity collective unconscious and our fundamental nature. In some way is reifying our hive mind.
Re:Playing with DALL-E 2 by pavlov on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @11:12PM (#31010813)
These models look backwards. They mine the past of what human imagination created and produce passable composites that lack individual expression. The more they’re used, the more obvious the technique becomes and soon we’ll be tired of it.
Re:Playing with DALL-E 2 by nahuel0x on Wednesday April 13, 2022 @02:58AM (#31011907)
Did you see the results? And the ones from other models like Midjourney? Many of these images are not just "passable composites" but can easily trick you as creations by human artists of high caliber. And this is only the beginning. Human artists also mine the past of the collective eons of human imagination, unconsciously. We are in many ways products of the past influencing us from the time we are born. GPT-3, DALLE-2 and the likes are not only a marvelous and almost magical novel technique, but they also have very deep philosophical implications about what we are and what is the thing we call "culture" and "language".
Re:Playing with DALL-E 2 by randomsearch on Wednesday April 13, 2022 @03:40AM (#31012108)
Nitpick: human illustrators of high calibre, not artists, which usually implies conceptual art and requires capabilities AI does not yet possess.
Re:Playing with DALL-E 2 by jules on Wednesday April 13, 2022 @04:31AM (#31012376)
The stuff I see in contemporary art museums is only occasionally clearly better than what DALL-E produces. I don't think anyone would bat an eye if you put a selected collection of its images in a museum.
Re:Playing with DALL-E 2 by nahuel0x on Wednesday April 13, 2022 @04:06AM (#31012240)
Not so sure, check this twitter threads with conceptual images generated from abstract prompts: https://twitter.com/nickcammarata/status/1513977172888887302

https://twitter.com/nickcammarata/status/1511861061988892675

And as said before, this is only the beginning.

Re:Playing with DALL-E 2 by ravi-delia on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @11:21PM (#31010861)
My guess is that human creativity is mostly just technical skill + taste + random noise. DALL-E has the first one, and we could probably approximate the last one, so the middle is the only one that needs work. It feels like that's a similar issue to how GPT often ends up trailing off. Maybe some kind of improved attention would work? Or an improved version of the sampling trick?
Re:Playing with DALL-E 2 by mlyle on Wednesday April 13, 2022 @01:49AM (#31011584)
Human curation is where you get the taste from.

As far as something to play with to get interesting ideas, and to take a first few cuts at implementing them, DALL-E is great. Then let's bring the human's technical skill and ability at curation into the mix.

Re:Playing with DALL-E 2 by gfodor on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @11:52PM (#31011050)
This was obviously the case for previous models. DALL-E 2 seems different - I’ve seen a few outputs that seem like genuinely novel creative artistic works.
Re:Playing with DALL-E 2 by jazzyjackson on Wednesday April 13, 2022 @01:47AM (#31011574)
"Originality is the art of hiding your source"

Harry Roolaart

Re:Playing with DALL-E 2 by dgb23 on Wednesday April 13, 2022 @03:22AM (#31012017)
They are quite obviously similar to artistic work because they copy, mix and match stuff that artists have done.
Re:Playing with DALL-E 2 by gfodor on Wednesday April 13, 2022 @10:43AM (#31015244)
When I say genuinely novel I mean genuinely novel. A trained artist can take a prompt from a person and integrate all they know from art and make something that fundamentally advances both. DALL-E appears capable of this form of creativity.
Re:Playing with DALL-E 2 by stickfigure on Wednesday April 13, 2022 @12:37AM (#31011229)
ELIZA and markov chain generators were curiosities without practical application.

DALL-E 2 is useful now. It's easy to imagine it replacing 99designs, Getty Images, and most of the digital art services on fiverr. I can't imagine what is going to happen in the world of print-on-demand tshirts.

And of course porn... what a market.

Re:Playing with DALL-E 2 by kingcharles on Wednesday April 13, 2022 @12:57AM (#31011334)
Magazines and newspapers are regularly paying thousands of dollars for a single abstract illustration for an article. DALL-E 2 is going to replace a huge proportion of that. Not only the cost saving, but you can get an image minutes before you go to press.
Re:Playing with DALL-E 2 by dx034 on Wednesday April 13, 2022 @05:20AM (#31012624)
And what if the image is mostly comprised of an existing artwork with copyright? Not sure I'd take that legal risk as a newspaper.
Re:Playing with DALL-E 2 by stickfigure on Wednesday April 13, 2022 @11:30AM (#31015857)
Then it will be rejected by the person using DALL-E, or someone else in the publishing chain? Maybe an automated reverse image search AI?

I don't think anyone (yet) imagines all the humans at the NYT will be replaced by GPTX+DALL-E. We still have editors even though humans author the articles.

Re:Playing with DALL-E 2 by dx034 on Thursday April 14, 2022 @02:44AM (#31024027)
Does that exist? Can you determine how mcuch of a DALL-E picture is identical to copyrighted material? And what's the threshold anyway for copyright to apply? I'm not sure that's a process with set rules yet.
Re:Playing with DALL-E 2 by whywhywhywhy on Wednesday April 13, 2022 @06:07AM (#31012899)
Until it can deal with a round of feedback without completely changing the imagine then illustrators have nothing to worry about.
Re:Playing with DALL-E 2 by mkl on Wednesday April 13, 2022 @08:03AM (#31013649)
It can already do that to some extent. You can erase bits you don't like and give it a new description to fill them in with.
Re:Playing with DALL-E 2 by chimprich on Wednesday April 13, 2022 @08:05AM (#31013667)
> DALL-E 2 is useful now.

If you look closely at most of the images, they don't look quite right. There are usually artefacts, or slight misunderstandings of the brief etc. Its about 80% of the way there, but I think that last 20% is going to be a lot more difficult.

I'm sure there are some cool applications for this - maybe if you need a quick and cheap image for your newsletter, personal website or an experimental game for example.

For a serious commercial application I would think it would be easier and safer to pay someone.

Re:Playing with DALL-E 2 by stickfigure on Wednesday April 13, 2022 @11:23AM (#31015762)
> I'm sure there are some cool applications for this - maybe if you need a quick and cheap image for your newsletter, personal website or an experimental game for example.

I think this understates the market. For every New York Times article, there are millions of newsletters, analyst reports, tshirts, websites, logos, etc. Many of them are abstract eye candy and don't need photorealism.

Actually, even the high-budget articles often have pretty abstract art. I read this Wired article yesterday, and all the illustrations could easily have been generated:

https://www.wired.com/story/tracers-in-the-dark-welcome-to-v...

Re:Playing with DALL-E 2 by speleding on Wednesday April 13, 2022 @05:00AM (#31012515)
Indeed, you can just wait for someone to try this on porn. (Yeah, I'll admit I'm curious to see what happens... for science!)
Re:Playing with DALL-E 2 by nl on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @08:49PM (#31009973)
20 years ago we couldn't imagine doing visual search that worked in any way.

Now we can do that in a model that runs locally on your phone. This is a pretty big deal.

Re:Playing with DALL-E 2 by timClicks on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @10:58PM (#31010735)
Agree that we haven't really progressed past curve fitting. I'm hopeful that we'll see a resurgence in symbolic AI, rather than watching the whole domain freeze up for a few decades.
Re:Playing with DALL-E 2 by IshKebab on Wednesday April 13, 2022 @04:37AM (#31012402)
Has symbolic AI ever produced anything that really demonstrates that it's the right approach? As far as I know DNNs are still way better at symbolic problems than symbolic AI.

And calling it "curve fitting" is just disingenuous. There's quite a lot of evidence that "curve fitting" will scale for at least a few more orders of magnitude. Who knows, maybe the human brain is just "curve fitting".

Re:Playing with DALL-E 2 by nl on Wednesday April 13, 2022 @06:35PM (#31021154)
> Has symbolic AI ever produced anything that really demonstrates that it's the right approach?

No it hasn't. And the problems are clear - it's impossible to express anything in the rigid hierarchies that symbolic AI requires.

Representing "Britain" in geographic, language, political and economic hierarchies does not allow a model to do any reasoning about what "British sense of humour" means.

"Softer" structures that represent concepts as a "blob" in a multi-dimensional space is clearly a better approach (aka embeddings, and the even better representations that more complex models use are even better).

Representing "Britian" as blob in a multidimensional space that is adjacent to concepts like "satire" and "surreal" as well as people like "John Cleese" lets a model reason about what "British sense of humour" means without being specifically trained.

As GPT-J[1] says when prompted with "A good example of the British sense of humour":

A good example of the British sense of humour is found in George Orwell’s novel, The Lion and the Unicorn. It’s a satire on socialism that is much more sophisticated than anything in contemporary Leftist intellectual thought. It was written during the war, in 1944. The story opens with a visit to a pub in a fictional village in England. The pub is named the Unicorn, but Orwell (or George, as he calls himself) has decided to call it the Lion. He explains:

“The Lion is a pub, just like any other pub, where people drink in the evenings, and talk about their daily business and their hobbies and where they exchange ideas, views, points of view. But the difference is that nobody in the Lion ever argues about anything. They just sit there, saying nothing, drinking nothing, not even beer. People can come to the Lion and buy beer, and leave the Lion and not buy beer. Beer is freely on sale in the Lion, but nobody ever buys it.

(One should note that George Orwell's "The Lion and the Unicorn" is nothing to do with a pub where no one buys beer. BUT the joke is kind of exactly like a British sense of humour).

[1] https://textsynth.com/playground.html

Re:Playing with DALL-E 2 by visarga on Wednesday April 13, 2022 @12:54AM (#31011320)
The first back-prop paper originates in 1970. Hindsight is 20/20, but back then it was not so clear what will follow, just like we couldn't have hoped to see such a model even a few years ago.

About usefulness - the CLIP part of the model is a ready made zero shot image classifier. It reduces the amount of work needed for simple image classification tasks to just naming the classes. The generative part is good enough for illustrations. It will make an average web designer have the powers of a graphical artist.

Unfortunately the models are restricted and expensive today. I hope to see a real open AI initiative to train such models and share the weights, but can't hope that from OpenAI.

Re:Playing with DALL-E 2 by wyldfire on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @10:46PM (#31010672)
> I work in AI/ML and every places I've seen the practical applications of these techniques has ranged the equivalent to adding sprinkles on a cake, to completely useless engineering nightmares that would ultimately create more value with their removal.

That "count the objects" app that can tell you how many items you have in a photo seems like a very practical application that wasn't possible with traditional CV before ML.

Re:Playing with DALL-E 2 by kristianov on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @10:54PM (#31010710)
It's only good for rough estimates. For accurate inventory you have to hand-count the items just to be sure. RFID tag is a much better technology.
Re:Playing with DALL-E 2 by jazzyjackson on Wednesday April 13, 2022 @02:07AM (#31011664)
"count the objects" is an interesting example to choose, it brings to mind the 1962 analog computer called "numa-rete" , composed of a grid of photocell nuerons (physical circuits) that works in parallel to instantaneously count the objects sitting on its surface.

Not far off from image recognition, save for the background segmentation ;)

machine is briefly described here, I've seen a more thorough breakdown somewhere out there... https://distributedmuseum.illinois.edu/exhibit/biological_co...

Re:Playing with DALL-E 2 by dx034 on Wednesday April 13, 2022 @05:22AM (#31012632)
If that worked well you could skip annual inventory, on which many companies spend huge amounts on. If you could just have a robot with video driving through the aisles of a supermarket to detect the number of items, misplaced items or expired items, that would be a huge value add and lead to less waste. But I doubt we're there yet.
Re:Playing with DALL-E 2 by gfodor on Tuesday April 12, 2022 @09:36PM (#31010287)
AlphaFold