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Re:In Defense of Bitcoin Maximalism by seibelj on Friday April 01, 2022 @09:48AM (#30878023)
Putting a significant amount of money into something that the vast majority of "intelligent" people say is a scam (as you do), is reward for taking risk. No different than an investor looking at small cap stocks to pick winners and throwing a lot of money in. It seems you are criticizing the concept of investing.
Re:In Defense of Bitcoin Maximalism by astoor on Friday April 01, 2022 @10:14AM (#30878266)
Something is only a sound investment if you know all sides are bound by rule of law. If you were to put money into a shell game at the local unlicenced market, then that would not be classed as a sound investment (even if you did know how to "beat the system" there's a good chance an accomplice would mug you for your winnings after you walked away). Or if you received a cold call from someone claiming to be a stockbroker with "insider knowledge" encouraging you to buy shares that they "know" are about become very valuable, that would not be classed as a sound investment.

With cryptocurrency it is the same. The combination of zero consumer protection and anonymity is the perfect breeding ground for fraud. If you were being charitable, you could call converting fiat money into cryptocurrency a gamble, but certainly not a sound investment. The only people who will try to convince you otherwise are those set to gain from the fraud.

Re:In Defense of Bitcoin Maximalism by smeej on Friday April 01, 2022 @11:34AM (#30879237)
I don't think it's "rule of law" here, but information parity.

How you become sure you have as much information about the subject as the person you're dealing with (i.e., whether that's because it is required by law and you expect to have some recourse if it's violated, or because you are confident that you've had access to the relevant information for some other reason) isn't really important.

Re:In Defense of Bitcoin Maximalism by headmelted on Friday April 01, 2022 @10:00AM (#30878149)
I don’t know that this is a good analogy.

They’re both inherently high risk, but the value derives from different things. With small caps, it’s the idea that one or more may grow to produce outsize returns in the future, whereas the other is hoping someone will come along later with more money to take you out of your position.

(The small caps for the most part aren’t attracting money based on popularity or memes, so are closer to high-risk investing than gambling on speculative assets).

Re:In Defense of Bitcoin Maximalism by giraffe_lady on Friday April 01, 2022 @10:07AM (#30878201)
I don't think that's what they're claiming at all. The "no different than" is doing the work here but I don't think it's warranted.

An investor in that situation has to (presumably, and I'm ignorant so maybe not) do work in doing research, having enough domain and industry knowledge to evaluate what a "winner" looks like in a given industry, understand how valuations are formed and what can make them wrong, etc etc.

Some of that is done by crypto people sure, but the difference between a big success and losing your money there seems a lot more luck-based than in normal investing.

People have been making the argument that investing is gambling for decades at this point, and I don't think that's completely wrong but it is very hard to draw the line. I am comfortable putting crypto trading on the gambling side of that line, and most forms of professional investing probably on the non-gambling side.

They are possibly a lot closer than I think they are, but I don't think that speaks well for either activity!

Re:In Defense of Bitcoin Maximalism by SketchySeaBeast on Friday April 01, 2022 @09:57AM (#30878117)
So it's cool if you take part in a pyramid scheme because you're taking on risk?
Re:In Defense of Bitcoin Maximalism by seibelj on Friday April 01, 2022 @09:59AM (#30878131)
I don't think crypto is a pyramid scheme and your statement is an opinion not a fact.
Re:In Defense of Bitcoin Maximalism by ALittleLight on Friday April 01, 2022 @10:07AM (#30878205)
Literally the only way you can profit with crypto is if people keep buying in at higher prices. It's the perfect instantiation of a pyramid scheme.
Re:In Defense of Bitcoin Maximalism by bluepnume on Friday April 01, 2022 @10:23AM (#30878347)
Literally the only way you can profit with real estate is if people keep buying in at higher prices. It's the perfect instantiation of a pyramid scheme.

Literally the only way you can profit with stocks is if people keep buying in at higher prices. It's the perfect instantiation of a pyramid scheme.

Re:In Defense of Bitcoin Maximalism by Sebb767 on Friday April 01, 2022 @10:31AM (#30878410)
> Literally the only way you can profit with real estate is if people keep buying in at higher prices. It's the perfect instantiation of a pyramid scheme.

Except, of course, if you live in it, rent it out or use it as businesses asset. Good luck doing that with crypto.

> Literally the only way you can profit with stocks is if people keep buying in at higher prices. It's the perfect instantiation of a pyramid scheme.

Except, of course, that you as a shareholder can influence the direction of the company and earn dividends. Good luck doing that with crypto.

Re:In Defense of Bitcoin Maximalism by bluepnume on Friday April 01, 2022 @12:45PM (#30880279)
What does that have to do with the original point?

- Real estate has real-world use cases

- Stocks have real-world use cases

- Bitcoin has real-world use cases

It's meaningless to describe any of these as pyramid schemes because "to profit you must be able to sell at a higher price to someone else". That's true of buying or selling anything.

Re:In Defense of Bitcoin Maximalism by bitxbitxbitcoin on Friday April 01, 2022 @10:36AM (#30878459)
Actually you can rent out crypto (to short sellers).
Re:In Defense of Bitcoin Maximalism by aaaaaaaaata on Saturday April 02, 2022 @09:00AM (#30887902)
Or by staking for loans, other transactions.
Re:In Defense of Bitcoin Maximalism by lanstin on Friday April 01, 2022 @01:01PM (#30880496)
A nice example of how the winners in the gold rush aren’t the suckers but the people selling stuff to the suckers.
Re:In Defense of Bitcoin Maximalism by kragen on Friday April 01, 2022 @10:33AM (#30878437)
You can live in real estate and get dividends from stocks. Cryptocurrencies are more similar to commodities: gold, wheat, coal. (You can consume wheat and coal, yes, but that consumes them and then you don't have them anymore; that's not profit.)
Re:In Defense of Bitcoin Maximalism by not_kurt_godel on Friday April 01, 2022 @11:12AM (#30878944)
Yes, except gold, wheat, and coal have inherent value as physical items whereas crypto does not.
Re:In Defense of Bitcoin Maximalism by uncletammy on Friday April 01, 2022 @11:41AM (#30879349)
You see no value in having a currency that can't be inflated on a whim by your government? As in, the printing of money that reduces the purchasing power of the money sitting in your bank account. Really?
Re:In Defense of Bitcoin Maximalism by NoblePublius on Monday April 04, 2022 @12:24PM (#30908495)
There is some value in having assets immune to inflationary money printing; indeed there are countless examples of such assets available for purchase such as stocks and real estate. My question remains: why is risk of permanently losing your money worth the alleged benefits of crypto? I am willing to accept 2% fees from Amex built into my purchases because such purchases are insured against fraud and deceptive business practice. Crypto provides none of that but it does provide a substantial non-zero risk of permanently losing access to your money because you forgot your password or lost your coke storage.
Re:In Defense of Bitcoin Maximalism by kragen on Wednesday April 13, 2022 @11:16PM (#31023072)
Stocks and real estate also pose a risk of permanently losing your money; for example, the company might go bankrupt, the real estate might be expropriated via adverse possession, or the government might freeze trade in the market until after you die, as has happened in a large number of cases since the Russian invasion of Ukraine. Even without government freezes, Ukrainian refugees whose savings were invested in Ukrainian real estate cannot spend them now (they are illiquid) and may lose them.

I recommend not storing your password with your coke.

Re:In Defense of Bitcoin Maximalism by not_kurt_godel on Friday April 01, 2022 @11:51AM (#30879483)
Bitcoin is not and never can be currency.
Re:In Defense of Bitcoin Maximalism by aaaaaaaaata on Saturday April 02, 2022 @09:01AM (#30887909)
It's a currency now, for dozens of nations and hundreds of millions of humans.

I'm afraid your comment doesn't make much sense.

Re:In Defense of Bitcoin Maximalism by bluepnume on Friday April 01, 2022 @12:37PM (#30880160)
That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.
Re:In Defense of Bitcoin Maximalism by not_kurt_godel on Friday April 01, 2022 @02:26PM (#30881631)
What is the max number of transactions per second that Bitcoin can support?
Re:In Defense of Bitcoin Maximalism by randomhodler84 on Friday April 01, 2022 @06:05PM (#30883803)
Lightning scales infinitely.

There are people using Bitcoin as a currency, via lightning, right now. More join all the time. The network expands.

It is a currency, is used as a currency, as sats. It is also a long term store of value as Bitcoin. You can ignore reality as much as your like, but the world has moved on from your 2017 era complaints.

Re:In Defense of Bitcoin Maximalism by not_kurt_godel on Friday April 01, 2022 @09:24PM (#30885058)
Ah yes, Lightning, the system where you have to establish an escrow fund between you and anyone you wish to pay. Sounds wildly practical.
Re:In Defense of Bitcoin Maximalism by randomhodler84 on Friday April 01, 2022 @10:25PM (#30885367)
that’s not how it works. You establish a channel with a network peer, spend some to add incoming liquidity to your channel, and reach the rest of the network. Send and receive payments. Yes the limitation is the liquidity and balance in your channels, but as far as routing goes we are all only a few hops away for each other.

It is wildly practical today, and there are several good custodial solutions if you do not wish to run a node yourself. Please give it a try!

Re:In Defense of Bitcoin Maximalism by not_kurt_godel on Saturday April 02, 2022 @01:04AM (#30885962)
A currency that requires you to run and a node and does not allow you to perform a transaction unless you have staked more currency than you are currently spending is not viable.
Re:In Defense of Bitcoin Maximalism by kragen on Friday April 01, 2022 @05:36PM (#30883559)
Especially when it's an assertion about the definition of a word.
Re:In Defense of Bitcoin Maximalism by kragen on Friday April 01, 2022 @11:26AM (#30879117)
Commodity traders couldn't care less, and the vast majority of the use of gold is purely commerce, unrelated to its inherent value for plating electrical contacts or coating mirrors.
Re:In Defense of Bitcoin Maximalism by vageli on Friday April 01, 2022 @10:25AM (#30878366)
> Literally the only way you can profit with crypto is if people keep buying in at higher prices. It's the perfect instantiation of a pyramid scheme.

How does that differ from other commodities trading? The only way to profit in the futures market is to buy low and sell high, too, for instance.

Re:In Defense of Bitcoin Maximalism by ALittleLight on Friday April 01, 2022 @12:53PM (#30880388)
Commodities are eventually consumed or used. Traders don't buy wheat futures for the joy of collecting wheat futures, they buy them because eventually some business wants to buy and use the actual wheat.

The "and use" phrase is what differentiates commodities from cryptocurrency.

Re:In Defense of Bitcoin Maximalism by vageli on Monday April 04, 2022 @11:34AM (#30907847)
Sure corporations use futures to ensure stable prices but there are also traders that specifically just trade futures without any hope for receiving the underlying commodity.
Re:In Defense of Bitcoin Maximalism by JumpCrisscross on Friday April 01, 2022 @10:40AM (#30878491)
> differ from other commodities trading

It doesn’t. Trading is zero sum. It supports the extraction, processing and delivery of useful things, however, which is positive sum.

Re:In Defense of Bitcoin Maximalism by someguydave on Friday April 01, 2022 @11:29AM (#30879172)
Trading is only zero sum at an instant in time and space. Moving or holding commodities can change the sum of the trade.
Re:In Defense of Bitcoin Maximalism by JumpCrisscross on Friday April 01, 2022 @11:37AM (#30879275)
> Trading is only zero sum at an instant in time and space. Moving or holding commodities can change the sum of the trade.

Trading between financial participants is, cetiris paribus, always zero sum. Irrespective of the timeline.

Buyer's gains are the seller's opportunity cost; buyer's losses were avoided by the seller. (Paribus violation is when parties have different funding costs.)

Moving commodities around isn't trading per se; it's logistics. Again, value adding.

Re:In Defense of Bitcoin Maximalism by someguydave on Friday April 01, 2022 @11:48AM (#30879446)
>Trading between financial participants is, cetiris paribus, always zero sum.

Only if you consider the trade in the quantity of the goods traded, and not in a prevailing unit of accounting.

Re:In Defense of Bitcoin Maximalism by JumpCrisscross on Friday April 01, 2022 @11:50AM (#30879463)
> Only if you consider the trade in the quantity of the goods traded, and not in a prevailing unit of accounting

Nope, this is microeconomics. If you and I have the same funding costs and we trade a commodity derivative, any gain you have is a gain I gave up. Any loss you have is one I avoided.

This is true irrespective of the unit of account of point in time at which one measures it; it's an identity. The only

Re:In Defense of Bitcoin Maximalism by someguydave on Wednesday April 06, 2022 @09:11AM (#30931567)
You are carefully defining the word “trading” to meet a narrow academic category which excludes many cases normal people consider integral to “trading”.

Someone who buys wheat, holds it and sells it the next day is definitely not “trading”, he merely engages in a series of discrete trades? Daft.

Re:In Defense of Bitcoin Maximalism by SketchySeaBeast on Friday April 01, 2022 @10:03AM (#30878176)
> Putting a significant amount of money into something that the vast majority of "intelligent" people say is a scam (as you do), is reward for taking risk.

I don't think this is any more a fact than my statement. I'm merely trying to point out that you seem to be saying it's ok to invest in what people perceive as a scam (my example was pyramid schemes) because it's an investment.

Re:In Defense of Bitcoin Maximalism by ip26 on Friday April 01, 2022 @09:58AM (#30878122)
No, they are just describing the well known mentality of "easy come, easy go".