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Re:We can do better than “same, but electric” by krasin on Monday March 28, 2022 @11:25PM (#30838417)
The author does not consider nuclear shipping vessels, while this is the right electric for long routes, such as Trans-Pacific: it allows for good utilization of reactor output, shave delivery times at no additional operational costs and it's nearly free from CO2 emissions (direct or indirect).

China is building a number of new nuclear ships starting with icebreakers but container ships are in the plans: https://www.scmp.com/news/china/diplomacy/article/3155860/ch...

Re:We can do better than “same, but electric” by paxys on Monday March 28, 2022 @11:43PM (#30838515)
There is never going to be a civilian-controlled ship with a nuclear reactor and nuclear fuel floating freely in international waters and docking at random ports. And no country's military is going to escort one around the world transporting consumer junk.

Regardless of cost, which itself makes this whole idea impossible, nuclear-powered container ships are simply not a possibility for this reason (and in fact the link you shared doesn't even mention them).

Re:We can do better than “same, but electric” by arnaudsm on Monday March 28, 2022 @11:55PM (#30838587)
As of today there are 12 civilian nuclear-powered ships in service the world [1], with 2 even dating from the 70s. I guess the tech is mature.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear-powered_icebreaker

Re:We can do better than “same, but electric” by paxys on Monday March 28, 2022 @11:58PM (#30838606)
It isn't about the tech. Ice-breakers are owned and operated directly or indirectly by some military or government agency, and stay in remote areas in a country's own waters.

Do you think any Chinese or Russian-built nuclear container ship is going to be able to dock in the port of Los Angeles or New York (the two busiest in the country)?

Re:We can do better than “same, but electric” by krasin on Tuesday March 29, 2022 @12:06AM (#30838658)
Los Angeles not allowing a nuclear container ship to dock: this is quite likely, but can be either dealt with (for example, by transferring containers to small battery-powered container ships in international waters close to LA for the last leg) or by continuing emitting megatons of CO2 to appease Emotional Greens (as opposed to Rational Greens) in California.

(Edited to remove an incorrect statement - sorry!)

Re:We can do better than “same, but electric” by tschwimmer on Tuesday March 29, 2022 @12:26AM (#30838757)
A container ship can carry up to 24,000 containers. Even if they don't build to the max size, it still takes 1-3 days to unload an average container ship on the shore using the giant container cranes. I can't imagine how long it would take to unload at sea onto smaller vessels but there's pretty much no way it's going to be economical with technology available in the next 20 years.
Re:We can do better than “same, but electric” by krasin on Tuesday March 29, 2022 @12:38AM (#30838821)
I agree that the old way of doing things won't work.

How about hundreds of cargo drones capable of lifting containers to transfer them from one ship to another? Something like this: https://www.cognitiveseeds.com/395-2/

Don't forget - a nuclear-powered ship that's not moving has a lot of free electricity: enough to charge all the drones (likely, bearing supercapacitors, as their flight from one ship to another will be very short)

Re:We can do better than “same, but electric” by cycomanic on Tuesday March 29, 2022 @01:20AM (#30839036)
It's interesting how further up someone accused people of opposing nuclear energy for ideological reasons and then read proposals like this, which are completely removed from reality.

Building drones that can lift containers from cargoships requires electricity/energy storage densities that are so far beyond anything realistic. A container can weigh up to 28 tonnes, there was exactly one helicopter that could carry this kind of load the Mil Mi-12 and that looked really more like a plane. Moreover if we would have those kind of densities why would we even use nuclear ships?

Re:We can do better than “same, but electric” by fennecfoxen on Tuesday March 29, 2022 @01:56AM (#30839268)
> Building drones that can lift containers from cargoships requires electricity/energy storage densities that are so far beyond anything realistic.

Nuclear drones!!1one! Problem SOLVED. Gee I'm smart. ;)

Re:We can do better than “same, but electric” by krasin on Tuesday March 29, 2022 @02:44AM (#30839557)
>It's interesting how further up someone accused people of opposing nuclear energy for ideological reasons and then read proposals like this, which are completely removed from reality.

Let's see. There are two variables here in regards to power subsystem: power and energy capacity. Let's start with the power:

>A container can weigh up to 28 tonnes, there was exactly one helicopter that could carry this kind of load the Mil Mi-12 and that looked really more like a plane.

According to ([1]), we need around 0.28 kW/kg of thrust. Assuming that the drone weights twice more than a container, we need to have a lift of around 84 tonnes-force minimum, and ~100 tonnes-force in reality. That translates to 0.28 * 10^5 kW = 28 MW. This is close to what Mi-12 had (19.2 MW).

LTO batteries from Toshiba ([2]) advertise 3.5 kW/kg of energy density, which gives us 28 MW/3.5 kW/kg = 800 kg of batteries. Reasonable, given that our budget for drone dry weight is 56 tonnes.

Let's consider the energy capacity. To transfer a container from one ship to another standing 200 meters apart moving at 10 km/h, we would need 144 seconds for roundtrip. Let's make it 300 seconds for redundancy.

28 MW * 300 seconds = 2333 kWh. At 84 Wh/kg ([2]), we get 27.8 tonnes of batteries. Not great, but within out weight budget of 56 tonnes.

The gotcha here that I see is the longevity of these batteries (they are rated for 8000 cycles). Do you see any other issues? I mean, basic physics seems to allow for such drones (not saying it's trivial to make).

1. https://store.tmotor.com/goods.php?id=974

2. https://www.electrive.com/2022/01/12/toshiba-presents-new-20...

Re:We can do better than “same, but electric” by adgjlsfhk1 on Tuesday March 29, 2022 @09:11AM (#30842085)
Issue number 1 is cost. At $100 per kwh, each of these drones will cost a quarter million dollars (just for the batteries). Also, since each trip will require recharge, if we assume that the batteries can charge at 500kw (which is really high), it will take about 5 hours to transfer 1 container. That seems pretty much untenable.
Re:We can do better than “same, but electric” by krasin on Tuesday March 29, 2022 @01:18PM (#30845555)
Cost on its own is rarely an issue. The thing that matters is payback time.

If one container move generates $10, and the drone moves 12 containers per hour, 12 hours a day, it will only take 6 months to earn the quarter of million mentioned.

Also, it might actually sound like a very cheap option compared to the ship-to-shore container cranes, which cost $20M-$40M each: https://www.freightcourse.com/port-cranes/

As for recharging: if our power train is 28 MW, why not charging it at the same speed as we discharge it? Why settle on 500 kW, which is really low? For comparison, Tesla supercharger is up to 300 kW, and a car is a much smaller EV.

Re:We can do better than “same, but electric” by adgjlsfhk1 on Tuesday March 29, 2022 @03:18PM (#30847126)
25 MW charging sounds great, but that does restrict you to 4 drones charging at a time per nuclear reactor (comparing to reactors used on carriers), which might be a little bit limiting (not to mention that making a battery that can be charged this quickly without overheating would be a triumph of engineering). Also your example of 12 containers per hour 12 hours a day for 6 months would be 26000 recharges, which is roughly 3x as long as the battery will last given current battery technology. In other words, this workload would require spending somewhere around $1M per year in batteries for a drone that takes roughly 12 minutes to unload a container. For comparison, a port crane, can unload 30 to 50 containers an hour, and will use far less electricity since it is lifting 1/3rd the weight (and isn't hovering).
Re:We can do better than “same, but electric” by krasin on Tuesday March 29, 2022 @03:58PM (#30847594)
Yes, the battery lifespan is the big issue (as pointed out in my original post).

As for charging at 28 MW: might work, given that the battery is physically larger, so there's more space to dissipate heat. I agree that it's not proven by the napkin math that it's doable.

What I really suspect is that if Los Angeles refuses to accept nuclear container ships, Mexico would let them in, and then the regular railway will be used to move them to the US. A much simpler solution. :)

Re:We can do better than “same, but electric” by cycomanic on Friday April 01, 2022 @07:51PM (#30884524)
I know this has been a couple of days ago, but still meant to reply. Regarding your numbers, not that that ~3.5 kW of _power_ density is for 10s when the charge is _at least 50%_. Moving back and forth between two ships is also likely more than 300s, they can't just let the containers drop, they have to be carefully placed. A bigger issue is that you can't just scale the numbers of a 500g battery up to 800kg, I mean just getting the heat away will require significant effort. There is a reason the Tesla battery is ~500kg.

But the biggest issue is is recharge, you can't recharge every 5 min. I mean how many of those drones are you going to employ? I mean a panamax class ship has 5000 containers. So either you need 5000 of those drones (good luck with them managing the off-onloading in 5 min) or some small subfraction, which then need to be recharged. Even if we assume we need to only move 500 containers (and use 500 drones), That means we either need to recharge 500 2333kWh batteries in 300s, how are you going to do that out on the ocean, or more likely you have 5 drones operating which need to work for 100 times as long, which increases you weight by 100. It just doesn't add up.

Re:We can do better than “same, but electric” by imtringued on Tuesday March 29, 2022 @05:58AM (#30840665)
It's one thing to do something completely counter productive like using gasoline powered drones to unload/load your electric ship. It's another to assume that the same capability can even be offered by electric drones.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with port cranes.

Re:We can do better than “same, but electric” by krasin on Tuesday March 29, 2022 @01:20PM (#30845587)
Yes, port cranes are much better, if they can be used. The drones are suggested as a potential alternative to handle "LA does not allow nuclear ships to dock", so that a transfer from a nuclear- to battery-powered container ship happens in the international waters.

As for can be offered: we're talking about moving a container from ship to ship which stand just hundreds meters away. The physics / math works, see my other comment.

Re:We can do better than “same, but electric” by kristjansson on Tuesday March 29, 2022 @01:59AM (#30839291)
That site users an image from the movie Airplane to illustrate their autonomous pilot.
Re:We can do better than “same, but electric” by Balero on Tuesday March 29, 2022 @05:26AM (#30840488)
How much is that going to cost to develop, manufacture, deploy, train, maintain etc? Shipping is a VERY price conscious industry.
Re:We can do better than “same, but electric” by krasin on Tuesday March 29, 2022 @01:23PM (#30845630)
I assume that the majority of the cost would be to design and build nuclear ships. And it's still worth it, as fuel is 50%-60% of operational costs.

As for drones to handle cases of ports which don't allow nuclear ships to dock: this is just a potential workaround. I kind of guess, that they will just focus on other ports first, and then eventually (like, in 5-10 years timeframe) everyone calms down and just allows such ships to dock in LA / NY / other US ports.

Re:We can do better than “same, but electric” by catherd on Tuesday March 29, 2022 @05:49AM (#30840617)
In most forms of bulk goods transport the power unit can be decoupled from the part the goods ride in. Seems possible that might also work for ships.
Re:We can do better than “same, but electric” by krasin on Tuesday March 29, 2022 @01:23PM (#30845636)
Oh, good point!
Re:We can do better than “same, but electric” by creato on Tuesday March 29, 2022 @12:24AM (#30838749)
Hmm, I consider myself a “rational green” in favor of nuclear power, but I’m not sure I think nuclear reactors operated by foreign companies in a highly competitive industry that booms and busts with tight margins is a good idea.
Re:We can do better than “same, but electric” by krasin on Tuesday March 29, 2022 @12:36AM (#30838805)
I share the same feelings. The thing is that these foreign companies won't ask the US for permission. And if it's profitable, they will (eventually) do it.

Yes, such ships will likely have to stay away from the US territorial waters, but there's plenty of routes where this won't be a problem.

As for tight margins: fuel costs represent 50%-60% of overall costs ([1]) and if these expenses are replaced with CapEx (hopefully, benefiting from economy of scale), then the tight operational margins suddenly become amazing, and there's a room for quality.

1. https://www.morethanshipping.com/fuel-costs-ocean-shipping/

Re:We can do better than “same, but electric” by chii on Tuesday March 29, 2022 @02:22AM (#30839449)
> Yes, such ships will likely have to stay away from the US territorial waters

if it turns out that such shipping via nuclear reactors is much more cost efficient (including all currently externalized costs such as emissions), then the US will have no choice but to accept it - or be uncompetitive in the global markets.

Re:We can do better than “same, but electric” by SmellTheGlove on Tuesday March 29, 2022 @01:12AM (#30839005)
I’m with you. It’s why I don’t look forward to autonomous airplanes. I firmly believe airlines would have “acceptable losses” that include passengers if they didn’t have two really hard to replace people sitting in the front.

Maybe I’m too jaded these days.

Re:We can do better than “same, but electric” by renewiltord on Tuesday March 29, 2022 @01:51AM (#30839234)
Fair point but what about a Chinese nucular boat from one Belt and Road port to another
Re:We can do better than “same, but electric” by xbmcuser on Tuesday March 29, 2022 @01:07AM (#30838984)
Why though make batteries the size weight and shape of shipping containers charge them in ports then the ships can replace empty batteries with charged batteries just like they do containers. I think the world would prefer that over a few thousand nuclear powered ships 1 ship wreck away from making the world sea nuclear contaminated. Which if you understand the water cycle would mean the whole world is nuclear contaminated
Re:We can do better than “same, but electric” by Galaxeblaffer on Tuesday March 29, 2022 @01:42AM (#30839172)
I don't think you realize just how big the sea is and how good it is at containing radiation. Heck, we're even figuring out how to mine uranium from seawater, because it's already in there.
Re:We can do better than “same, but electric” by throwaway0a5e on Tuesday March 29, 2022 @09:24AM (#30842215)
The Chinese and Russian ships will dock in their own ports and the ports of poorer countries until the rich westerners get over themselves and realize it's not that bad.
Re:We can do better than “same, but electric” by maxerickson on Tuesday March 29, 2022 @08:48AM (#30841796)
Build them somewhere else then?

I guess if you get the design to where it acts like a giant battery that is nearly impossible to tamper with it could work fine. Of course the political will to even try to do that doesn't exist.

Re:We can do better than “same, but electric” by giraffe_lady on Tuesday March 29, 2022 @09:13AM (#30842110)
The problem isn't building them it's operating them. This is not a technical problem and there can be no technical solution to it.

If you have the access and ability to safely operate a nuclear reactor you also have the access and ability to operate it very unsafely if you choose to. There is no way around this that doesn't also remove your ability to operate it safely.

Re:We can do better than “same, but electric” by maxerickson on Tuesday March 29, 2022 @09:36AM (#30842349)
Your second paragraph is phrased as a fact, but it's an opinion. It's probably true today, but it can't actually be a factual statement, because we don't know what we don't know.
Re:We can do better than “same, but electric” by krasin on Tuesday March 29, 2022 @12:00AM (#30838619)
>There is never going to be a civilian-controlled ship with a nuclear reactor

Not only they exist for decades, but as recently as January 2022, you could have bought tickets for a nuclear ship cruise: https://poseidonexpeditions.com/northpole/north-pole-icebrea...

Also, the nuclear container ship (the old one, but still in service): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sevmorput

The link I shared is about a Chinese nuclear icebreaker that is supposed to lead container ships behind. Then there's no difference in terms of security if there's just one nuclear ship in a caravan or all of them.

As for Chinese specifically planning for nuclear powered container ships, I can offer this speculation: https://www.neimagazine.com/opinion/opinionpropelling-decarb...

Re:We can do better than “same, but electric” by paxys on Tuesday March 29, 2022 @12:05AM (#30838650)
Like I said in another comment, every single such vessel in existence (the container ship you linked and all the ice breakers) is owned and operated by the Russian government and operates in Russian-controlled waters (or has an escort). This is not a model that can be used for global shipping.
Re:We can do better than “same, but electric” by krasin on Tuesday March 29, 2022 @12:09AM (#30838670)
You have a point. Let's wait until China deploys their fleet. Going to be a long wait (15-20 years), but it is my strong belief that they will do it. I might be proven wrong, of course.
Re:We can do better than “same, but electric” by riku_iki on Tuesday March 29, 2022 @01:08AM (#30838990)
> There is never going to be a civilian-controlled ship with a nuclear reactor and nuclear fuel floating freely

That's while we have cheap oil. Once it is gone, having nuclear powered container super-carrier will be strategic interest of countries.

Re:We can do better than “same, but electric” by nine_k on Tuesday March 29, 2022 @12:00AM (#30838614)
As suggested in a sister comment, a nuclear reactor is such a highly sought piece of tech that you need an aircraft carrier built around it to protect it from snatching by somebody who wants to start building nukes.

You can, of course, use nuclear energy to run your ships, and even trucks and planes.

Use the nuclear energy (both the electricity and heat) to produce fuel from CO₂ and H₂O. Use this fuel in your jet engines and colossal diesel motors. Burning it is carbon-neutral.

Oil should become much more expensive though, and building of nuclear facilities, much more cost-efficient, for this to become economically viable.

Re:We can do better than “same, but electric” by krasin on Tuesday March 29, 2022 @12:03AM (#30838638)
Then how do these nuclear ships operate for decades?

Nuclear container ship Sevmorput: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sevmorput

Civilian nuclear icebreakers: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear-powered_icebreaker

Floating nuclear power plant: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_floating_nuclear_power...

Re:We can do better than “same, but electric” by dghlsakjg on Tuesday March 29, 2022 @12:47AM (#30838874)
All of the ships you linked to are operated by Rosatom or its predecessors.

That is essentially a state operator as far as I can tell.

Re:We can do better than “same, but electric” by krasin on Tuesday March 29, 2022 @01:02AM (#30838963)
State != military, though. For instance, all France nuclear power plants are operated by Électricité de France (EDF) that is substantially owned by the French Government, with around 85% shares in government hands ([1]).

I don't see a problem having nuclear container ships to be operated by civilian governmental agencies / state-owned enterprises. This might not work for the US, but we often have very unique ways of doing things.

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_power_in_France

Re:We can do better than “same, but electric” by nine_k on Tuesday March 29, 2022 @03:21AM (#30839760)
i suppose these ships only use Soviet / Russian ports, and mostly don't operate in high seas. Icebreakers do operate in high seas, but getting close to them is a bit hard due to ice and polar weather.

The more interesting example is NS Savannah [1], which indeed crossed oceans unattended, and was accepted at European ports.

[1]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/NS_Savannah

Re:We can do better than “same, but electric” by seanmcdirmid on Tuesday March 29, 2022 @09:23AM (#30842213)
Of those, the icebreakers have been commercially successful due to logistics of fueling in the attic and the heavy fuel needs of ice breaking (both solved by a reactor that only needs to be refueled once every few years).
Re:We can do better than “same, but electric” by Shared404 on Monday March 28, 2022 @11:38PM (#30838486)
To my layperson self, it seems like that would be a bad idea.

We know how to secure a reactor on land, but the sea is a big, dangerous place - and it's only a matter of time before some cost cutting idiot blows up a ship because they wanted a bigger bonus.

Re:We can do better than “same, but electric” by yellowapple on Tuesday March 29, 2022 @12:18AM (#30838722)
Nuclear reactors are arguably a lot safer (in terms of meltdown risk) on the ocean than they already are on land, seeing as how they're in ships that float on a giant planet-wide heatsink that also happens to be exceptionally good at confining radiation.

The more pertinent risk would be piracy and the like; if thorium ever catches on, it'd probably help make that less of an issue.

Re:We can do better than “same, but electric” by Swizec on Monday March 28, 2022 @11:41PM (#30838506)
We already have nuclear submarines and aircraft carriers. The popular joke is that all military/navy/etc equipment is built by the lowest bidder.

On the bright side: if a nuclear reactor melts down in the middle of the ocean, there’s basically nothing around to be inconvenienced by that event.

Re:We can do better than “same, but electric” by l33t2328 on Monday March 28, 2022 @11:47PM (#30838530)
Those nuclear aircraft carriers have a bit more military protection than an arbitrary nuclear cargo ship will.
Re:We can do better than “same, but electric” by bronson on Tuesday March 29, 2022 @12:05AM (#30838651)
And a sliiightly bigger budget, both construction and maintenance.
Re:We can do better than “same, but electric” by InsaneOstrich on Monday March 28, 2022 @11:39PM (#30838493)
What use does China have for icebreakers?
Re:We can do better than “same, but electric” by pavlov on Monday March 28, 2022 @11:45PM (#30838521)
To my knowledge, the Bohai Sea (the large bay between Beijing and North Korea basically) does freeze.
Re:We can do better than “same, but electric” by seanmcdirmid on Tuesday March 29, 2022 @09:25AM (#30842229)
Their rivers freeze also, but I assume they are lambing to participate in arctic shipping routes, maybe the one above Siberia to get to Europe.
Re:We can do better than “same, but electric” by beebmam on Monday March 28, 2022 @11:44PM (#30838516)
Military capability in the arctic for a potential US conflict in the future?
Re:We can do better than “same, but electric” by tigerlily on Monday March 28, 2022 @11:43PM (#30838514)
Antarctic activities I guess
Re:We can do better than “same, but electric” by krasin on Monday March 28, 2022 @11:50PM (#30838559)
Polar Silk Route (see the news link I posted above)
Re:We can do better than “same, but electric” by Angostura on Tuesday March 29, 2022 @08:16AM (#30841533)
I'm sure the Somalian pirates can't wait.