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Re:I hate what video games have become by pengaru on Sunday March 27, 2022 @10:38PM (#30826517)
There's a lot to dislike, but my gripes as a developer who occasionally dabbles in games are more along the lines of "this puzzle game prototype is interesting and may be worth polishing up and tossing on steam, but oh right, it won't even pay for itself unless I turn it into yet another gambling machine."

Then I go back to writing system software.

Re:I hate what video games have become by JKCalhoun on Sunday March 27, 2022 @10:54PM (#30826621)
Yeah, people blame the developers, blame the publishers, but I think the sad truth is, gamers themselves shoulder much of the blame. Somehow the public came to believe that everything should be free. Maybe it was the internet? Maybe it was sites/apps like Facebook?

Regardless, when a great piece of software that happens to have a price tag fails to sell, whose fault is that?

Don't blame developers/publishers for going instead to the only model that pays the bills these days.

Re:I hate what video games have become by Gigachad on Monday March 28, 2022 @12:36AM (#30827187)
Why blame anyone? Gamers get the content they want in the way they prefer to pay for it, developers and publishers get paid.

The market has pretty clearly spoken and decided that people prefer cosmetic micro transactions with free to play games. Just because it doesn’t match the Hacker News gaming utopia template doesn’t mean anyone is doing anything wrong.

This is especially true for multiplayer games where a lot of children don’t have money to buy the game but their presence on the platform adds value to the people who do have money to spend on it.

Re:I hate what video games have become by playpause on Monday March 28, 2022 @02:47AM (#30827805)
I also think “Why blame anyone?”, but not because there’s no problem. Just because it doesn’t make sense to blame individuals for market movements.

Markets are powered by billions of instances of “what someone wants” but that doesn’t mean the resulting market movements are always a good indicator of what everyone wants as an environment. Sometimes aggregate human activity results in a crappy experience for most participants. “The market has spoken” is a glib, ideological phrase that can be used to dismiss any discussion about ways we could steer and improve markets to make them do a better job at facilitating human happiness and flourishing.

Re:I hate what video games have become by bengy5959 on Monday March 28, 2022 @02:49PM (#30834089)
Same thing for airlines. I hate the argument "consumers decided they wanted smaller seats, no free food or drinks, etc by buying the cheapest tickets." People just tried to get the best deal possible in the market, they aren't analyzing which airline has the best seats and amenities and making their decision from there.
Re:I hate what video games have become by mschuster91 on Monday March 28, 2022 @02:26AM (#30827677)
> The market has pretty clearly spoken and decided that people prefer cosmetic micro transactions with free to play games.

All that the market discovered is that there is a huge number of "whales" that can be exploited. The "fun" will begin once the whales have squandered their money and will either leave entirely or, and that's the scenario I fear, some (or someone's relatives) will raise a sob story in front of their local newspaper or politician... ending in a repeat of the early 2000s with videogames being blamed as a whole for the excesses of a few, and religious and other moral fundamentalists getting ahead.

Re:I hate what video games have become by yamazakiwi on Monday March 28, 2022 @12:58PM (#30832666)
> This is especially true for multiplayer games where a lot of children don't have money to buy the game but their presence on the platform adds value

Playing a competitive FPS game casually with all age groups is lot of more fun and attractive to most gamers a la Apex/Warzone/Fortnite/Valorant/CSGO.

By charging up front you remove an enormous player base and create a worse matchmaking experience for all players. Long gone are the days of buy a Call of Duty game for Christmas.

Re:I hate what video games have become by tsimionescu on Monday March 28, 2022 @02:25AM (#30827674)
That's not true though. No game lives off the general public buying a few cosmetics. It lives off a few addicted people buying thousands of dollars worth, while the vast majority pay nothing. It's a terrible business model that will hopefully be outlawed in the coming decade.
Re:I hate what video games have become by JKCalhoun on Monday March 28, 2022 @10:00AM (#30830542)
I had assumed those "few addicted people buying thousands of dollars worth" were instead just people with a lot of disposable income.

You could be right though, and it is addiction. That would in fact be uncool.

My only data-point though is a friend of mine who has spent hundreds of dollars (or more?) on Star Citizen ships and he is the disposable-income kind of gamer.

Re:I hate what video games have become by bytehowl on Monday March 28, 2022 @03:00PM (#30834231)
This video by Jim Sterling is a good overview of how knowingly sinister microtransactions truly are, with a couple narrated testimonies of people who fell for them despite not being able to afford them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7S-DGTBZU14

Re:I hate what video games have become by tsimionescu on Monday March 28, 2022 @01:07PM (#30832795)
There are combinations of both, for sure. But there was an interview some time ago on Eurogamer about a super spender (thousands of pounds) on Candy Crush who was awarded some airplane tickets to attend a Candy Crush convention, but she couldn't afford tickets to get to the airport...
Re:I hate what video games have become by JKCalhoun on Monday March 28, 2022 @06:51PM (#30836559)
That's extremely sad.
Re:I hate what video games have become by Sohcahtoa82 on Monday March 28, 2022 @01:03PM (#30832734)
> The market has pretty clearly spoken and decided that people prefer cosmetic micro transactions with free to play games.

I wonder how many people on HN complaining about this model actually even consider themselves gamers.

I'm a gamer. I spend 30-40 hours/week on PC games. I think the "Free-to-play with paid cosmetics" (Apex Legends, Rocket League, Splitgate, tons of other games that follow this model) is perfectly fine.

I think part of the problem is that it's hard to have a conversation about this model because someone will always make references to games that are pay-to-win (Most mobile games) or gate content behind a paywall (Not sure which games do this today), which are an entirely different beast and not a part of the conversation.

EDIT: Just remembered League of Legends. It gates content (characters to play) behind progression, or you can pay money to unlock them immediately. But paid characters aren't necessarily more powerful, and they're constantly making adjustments to characters to try to keep them balanced. Any experienced player will tell you that paying money for a character perceived as being overpowered is foolish as it's guaranteed they'll eventually get nerfed.

Re:I hate what video games have become by JKCalhoun on Monday March 28, 2022 @09:58AM (#30830516)
I agree. I too am, reluctantly, in the why-blame-anyone camp. I say reluctantly because I dislike the current state of affairs.

My critique, pushing as much of the blame onto the gamers, was meant to point out that everyone/no one is to blame.

Re:I hate what video games have become by ddaalluu2 on Tuesday March 29, 2022 @12:36PM (#30844834)
Wrong. The market has not spoken. The producers leave no alternative so it's do or die for consumers
Re:I hate what video games have become by greggsy on Sunday March 27, 2022 @11:09PM (#30826709)
IMO, it’s the platforms that turn down novel ideas in preference for money making products, resulting in less visibility for the underdog. Apple’s App Store routinely promotes paid for apps over free ones. Steam does the same. Google search is obviously the worst offender.
Re:I hate what video games have become by apatters on Monday March 28, 2022 @02:28AM (#30827686)
This is like saying we should blame the smoker, the junkie, or the gambling addict. The latter is an especially accurate comparison because these companies turn their games into gambling machines.

Sure, personal responsibility is important. In the end the only person who can free an addict from the quagmire of addiction is them. But that doesn't stop us from regulating the fuck out of tobacco companies, heroin dealers or casinos to reduce the harm they do to their victims.

The elephant in the room is that we as an industry hold the power to alter people's psychology on a greater scale than any drug. But people stay silent because it delivers the paychecks and the shareholder returns...

Re:I hate what video games have become by thot_experiment on Monday March 28, 2022 @01:59AM (#30827546)
Artificial scarcity is bad, actually. Things that don't cost money to duplicate should be free, we need UBI and maybe a general shift to patronage-based models, luckily this is starting to happen.

There are also plenty of games that implement a cometic lootboxes that don't impact gameplay model that are totally fine.

Re:I hate what video games have become by collaborative on Monday March 28, 2022 @03:02AM (#30827892)
This would lead to a society where there is no incentive to create any new digital goods.

The patronage "platform" would be the new Apple/Google and would likely be riddled with corruption

Re:I hate what video games have become by thot_experiment on Monday March 28, 2022 @10:49AM (#30831046)
While my original comment is not my best work by any stretch (sorry), I implore you to reconsider the idea that all motivation is monetary (it's absolutely not) and that patronage must happen on a "platform" that will become corrupt in some way. I think discounting the possibility of novel systems that tackle these problems out of hand is not a good way to start.
Re:I hate what video games have become by umanwizard on Monday March 28, 2022 @02:34AM (#30827734)
Lot of assertions here about how society should be run without any actual argumentation.
Re:I hate what video games have become by thot_experiment on Monday March 28, 2022 @10:56AM (#30831120)
Fair enough, it's not a great comment. I don't really know how society should be run, and I shouldn't have offhandedly emphasized a couple things that I think might lead us to a solution.

That being said I'll stand by artificial scarcity being bad thing and clarify that while I don't have some master plan on how to create a functioning society where we don't have to impose artificial scarcity on the digital world; I absolutely think that is something we should be dedicating a lot of effort to. I reject the premise that we need to deny some people things that can be copied essentially for free.

Re:I hate what video games have become by umanwizard on Monday March 28, 2022 @02:05PM (#30833567)
> That being said I'll stand by artificial scarcity being bad thing and clarify that while I don't have some master plan on how to create a functioning society where we don't have to impose artificial scarcity on the digital world; I absolutely think that is something we should be dedicating a lot of effort to. I reject the premise that we need to deny some people things that can be copied essentially for free.

Again this just sounds like an emotional argument -- you seem convinced on a purely intuitive level that artificial scarcity is bad without actually explaining rationally how the harm it does outweighs the benefits.

There is a _very simple_ argument (which I'm not claiming is _true_ in all cases, but it is at least compelling, so anyone claiming the contrary needs to address it) in favor of artificial scarcity: taking away a major monetization strategy (often the only viable one) massively reduces the incentive to create high-quality products and we all end up poorer for those cultural outputs not existing.

Re:I hate what video games have become by thot_experiment on Tuesday March 29, 2022 @12:48AM (#30838884)
> taking away a major monetization strategy (often the only viable one) massively reduces the incentive to create high-quality products and we all end up poorer for those cultural outputs not existing.

Ahahaha, to be quite honest I don't find that argument compelling at all. Profit motives seem to be making software much much worse, not better, compared to what I know is possible. I'm often finding myself reverse engineering/hacking things just to make them usable. From where I'm standing the current system is not doing a very good job. I can often make notable usability improvements in the systems I interact with and IP laws, the main driver of digital artificial scarcity generally prevent me from sharing them. I feel like I'm constantly fighting hostile software that's just trying to extract value from me in some way rather than actually solving my problems.

Re:I hate what video games have become by shusaku on Sunday March 27, 2022 @11:10PM (#30826714)
The other option is to apparently blanket your game with advertisements. I spent some time yesterday looking for word games in the iOS store, and it seems like everything was “free”, but had non stop, unskippable ads. One offered to remove ads for a fee, but even after paying they remained in various parts of the game.
Re:I hate what video games have become by samatman on Monday March 28, 2022 @02:01AM (#30827553)
Some of that is that Apple's App Store search remains the worst search engine I'm forced to use, but some of it is evaporative cooling from Apple Arcade.

Most of the decent games have migrated there. I barely use it, but I think it works out to two bucks with the other iStuff I'm happy to pay for, and having a few games on my tablet or phone can be nice when I'm traveling.

Re:I hate what video games have become by temp8964 on Sunday March 27, 2022 @11:35PM (#30826886)
Almost all top iOS games are like this now, iPhone App Store is an extremely toxic market for games.
Re:I hate what video games have become by rstupek on Monday March 28, 2022 @12:07PM (#30832002)
what type of word game were you looking for?
Re:I hate what video games have become by Wowfunhappy on Monday March 28, 2022 @01:59AM (#30827545)
That depends on how good the concept is! Plenty of indie games have succeeded without gambling mechanics, look at something like Baba Is You for instance. I don’t know that the developer became rich off of it but be seems to have done well enough.
Re:I hate what video games have become by techdragon on Monday March 28, 2022 @02:08AM (#30827589)
This only works if you either already have a brand like Zachatronics or if you have the patience to support/polish these small games for years till the random slot machine of the universe drops you enough reviews that you get critical mass and decent sales… or you pay for PR and you can successfully profit from even a shit game with enough PR money so why bother at that point…

Your right about a good concept winning a lot of good will and making success possible with less polish, but these days it doesn’t subtract the “risk of never being discovered” if you make an iOS app your just one of millions in the App Store if it’s on steam the shovelware isn’t as bad and discovery is better but it still requires market understanding in order to stand out.

Re:I hate what video games have become by Wowfunhappy on Monday March 28, 2022 @12:55PM (#30832629)
The reason I referenced Baba Is You is because that concept was so incredibly brilliant, I legitimately believe you could have dropped the game into five parallel universes and it would have gotten attention every single time. Just get the game in front of one journalist for five minutes, and they'll very quickly see how brilliant it is.

Discovering a game concept like that is hard, but it does happen.

Re:I hate what video games have become by hypertele-Xii on Sunday March 27, 2022 @11:23PM (#30826809)
What exactly makes you think as someone who "dabbles in games" to be entitled to profit?

AFAIK it costs $100 +30% to publish on Steam. It only takes 260 people to buy your game at 50 cents to break even. If your game can't sell 260 copies at 50 cents then it's just that, worthless.

Why not just release your game for free, for free? Does it have to be on Steam? Does it have to make money?

Re:I hate what video games have become by pengaru on Sunday March 27, 2022 @11:28PM (#30826831)
> AFAIK it costs $100 +30% to publish on Steam. It only takes 260 people to buy your game at 50 cents to break even. If your game can't sell 260 copies at 50 cents then it's just that, worthless.

It doesn't take zero time to ship a bespoke finished game, your calculus is asinine.

Re:I hate what video games have become by zimspy on Monday March 28, 2022 @01:11AM (#30827331)
Break even on publishing costs. What about the man hours put into development?
Re:I hate what video games have become by bccdee on Sunday March 27, 2022 @11:35PM (#30826883)
The difference between someone who "dabbles in games" and a professional is that the professional polishes up the prototype and sells it on Steam. The commenter above explained why the state of the industry has prevented them from doing that. Your weird tangent asking "why do you feel entitled to make money for your work?" isn't really relevant to the conversation.
Re:I hate what video games have become by bradknowles on Sunday March 27, 2022 @11:36PM (#30826889)
Do you have to eat?

Do you have to have a place to sleep?

Seems to me like making a reasonable amount of money to help towards these goals is not an unreasonable thing to hope for. But maybe you can prove me wrong?

Re:I hate what video games have become by chefandy on Monday March 28, 2022 @02:35AM (#30827736)
I chastised a friend for getting so upset after losing half a dozen travelers checks on vacation. Get a grip — it’s $2 worth of paper. If you can’t afford to replace that you can’t afford to be on vacation.
Re:I hate what video games have become by bradknowles on Monday March 28, 2022 @06:33PM (#30836409)
For me, I think the concern with Travelers Checks is the potential loss of money from your account, if someone is able to forge your signature on them, and how that might potentially be used to tie you to other events or crimes that may have occurred.
Re:I hate what video games have become by chefandy on Wednesday March 30, 2022 @11:39PM (#30863598)
It was a joke. Travelers checks aren’t like regular checks — they’re more like cashier’s checks or money orders. Losing them is a very big problem.
Re:I hate what video games have become by bradknowles on Wednesday March 30, 2022 @11:48PM (#30863640)
Oh, sorry. I guess it's been about twenty or thirty years since I used them.

Thanks for the clarification!

Re:I hate what video games have become by chefandy on Thursday March 31, 2022 @10:38PM (#30874651)
Yeah. I dated myself with that reference.
Re:I hate what video games have become by hypertele-Xii on Monday March 28, 2022 @04:36AM (#30828492)
Oh sorry sometimes I forget most people live in wage slavery.
Re:I hate what video games have become by Loughla on Monday March 28, 2022 @10:15AM (#30830697)
I'm genuinely confused by this. Are you saying that you shouldn't have to worry about eating and living indoors? Or are you saying that you literally forget people have to pay for those things? Can you please explain what you mean?
Re:I hate what video games have become by hypertele-Xii on Tuesday March 29, 2022 @04:20AM (#30840105)
My society provides free food and housing to everyone. Funny enough I literally forgot that's not universal (yet).
Re:I hate what video games have become by ddaalluu2 on Tuesday March 29, 2022 @12:43PM (#30844966)
Your society?
Re:I hate what video games have become by hypertele-Xii on Tuesday March 29, 2022 @12:57PM (#30845206)
The Republic of Finland.

Also free health care, electricity, water, and Internet.

Re:I hate what video games have become by whywhywhywhy on Monday March 28, 2022 @12:35AM (#30827183)
You shouldn’t be selling your game for 50c if you expect to live off it so the calculation is even more off.
Re:I hate what video games have become by temp8964 on Sunday March 27, 2022 @11:32PM (#30826864)
How is that break even? Don’t you need to invest time/money to make a game?
Re:I hate what video games have become by hypertele-Xii on Tuesday March 29, 2022 @04:41AM (#30840237)
Nope. I guess you do.
Re:I hate what video games have become by moron4hire on Monday March 28, 2022 @03:36AM (#30828094)
Weird take to make on a site about entrepreneurship