the richest people in america got that way by creating enormous amounts of value and then capturing lots of it for themselves.

the richest people in russia got that way by plundering the country of its natural resources and the remnants of the soviet-era industry.

those are not the same.

> the richest people in america got that way by creating enormous amounts of ? value and then capturing lots of it for themselves.

> the richest people in russia got that way by plundering the country of its natural resources and the remnants of the soviet-era industry. > those are not the same.

Importantly, the wealth of the richest in the oligarchy is maintained (or destroyed like in the case of Mikhail Khodorkovsky) by the use of force by the authoritarian. The power of the authoritarian is in turn backstopped financially by the oligarchs.

The wealth of the richest in the US is maintained by the economic system and its associated laws (however flawed). There is a conceivable path to make the system fairer in the US via elections, but not in Russia.

> creating enormous amounts of value

To be honest, the poster child for American businesses are Intuit, Equifax, that company that manufactures EpiPens, or the company that manufactures insulin etc. They all essentially exist by rent-seeking without creating value, enforced through lobbying or regulatory capture.

Painting American companies and Russian companies in such stark contrast is overly simplistic. And pretending American elites are any more altruistic than Russian elites would be insanity.

Why are those the poster children for American businesses?

Wouldn't it be some combination of JPMorgan, Google, Boeing, Berkshire Hathaway, McDonalds, Wal-Mart, and Cardinal Health or something (you can mix in whatever Fortune 500 companies you want)?

The rent-seeking companies appear to me to be a far smaller portion of the economy than others that inarguably produce economic value.

Most people don't know who founded Equifax, how it makes money, who it's CEO is or how much the business is worth. Did Equifax even mint any billionaires?

Random exceptions don't invalidate the point of the parent comment.

> the richest people in america got that way by creating enormous amounts of value and then capturing lots of it for themselves.

This may have been the case through the 1960s but post 1970s American is very much back on the crypto-aristocrat track with people inheriting vast wealth or being given jobs as money managers or financiers due to family influence and then rent-seeking the hell out of anything that smells like money.

Most of the richest people in the US got their wealth through inheritance.

Most? 80% of US millionaires are first generation according to NYT and almost all billionaires in the US are first generation.

A 1 millionaire isn't exceptionally rich. They still have to work to get by unless they decamp for a cheaper country.

People think of the people at the very top of the list, who are mostly late-20th-century entrepreneurs, but you're right: the bulk of the American rich are people like the Waltons, Mars's, and other heirs.

A number of the most wealthiest (Top 15?) people in America inherited their wealth. The rest, well they seem to have exploited various aspects of the country and people.

Can you list those top 15 that inherit their wealth?

What are you willing to pay me for the service?

the US’ top billionaires have often profited a lot from government funding, whether it’s subsidies, tax breaks, regulatory capture, etc… the “rich because they created equivalent value” is old school American Dream flavor propaganda

I'm not sure if I would equivolate Elon Musk taking advantage of the literal purpose that EV tax credits were designed to a Russian grifter with the right connections being gifted the state oil company in 1992 for no reason other than he was buddies with someone in the old Soviet politburo.

You can try to make an argument that EV tax credits are bad and should be abolished, but the two situations just aren't even in the same universe.

they’re not in the same universe, but i’m not about to let someone perpetuate the myth that american billionaires are some kind of pure self-made businessmen - they’re system exploiters

The richest people in America got that way by exploiting labor.

How do we know who the richest people in the US are? Forbes' list is based largely on first-order research of federal filings, like stock ownership, compensation, and extrapolation from data that is made public. But with so many ways of channeling wealth, it seems likely the very wealthiest could easily remain anonymous. I don't recall who said this, but the president of a hedge fund was being interviewed by Forbes and told them, paraphrased, "You have no idea how much money I have, and you never will." I could be wrong about how the Forbes list is computed, but it seems to be more guesswork than rooted in reality, since the Paradise and Pandora papers uncovered more wealth than has been reported. (Again, I'm not 100% certain I'm mixing up internet disinfo.)

Because in Russia the KGB associated people took political and economic power. Hence ruled by few as is the definition. I'm assuming you believe Mark Zuckerberg has a iron grip on your country and will have you killed if you cross him?

In Russia, KGB spooks became oligarchs. In the US (~50 years earlier), oligarchs created the CIA to do their dirty tricks for them. It's a distinction without a difference.

How many people will the metaverse be ruled by?

Perhaps only one. So? Killing people in the physical universe is the problem.

it's a distinct system in which they have to give a substantial share of their take to the supreme leader, and that leader sort of dictates the lines of their territory and doesn't allow them to engage in politics, and all of this exists completely outside the legal system

nothing like lobbyists donating large sums of money to political candidates on behalf of the elite, hey! it's legal!.

Err, donating large sums of money to politicians, government officers are prevalent in Russia. Where do you think Putin’s wealth come from? You can track lobby money in the US. Can you do that in Russia?

what difference does it make being able to track lobby money in the US?

I think the term started life in Russian (just before my time) before being translated directly into English. It's got little to do with Oligarchy in Plato's sense, but it originated as a reference to it. Incidentally, the term Aristocracy is also used in a corrupted sense, but not in the context of Russia.

I don't think anyone disputes the power of American billionaires - especially with their incessant meddling in politics and their proximity to regulators - but the Russians earned their scorn by looting the state to earn their billions. Sweetheart deals to "privatize" public assets with no accountability - random people like Putin's chef/cater being given billion-dollar companies and multi-billion dollar state contracts. Their spouses and children amassing huge net worths with multiple houses, yachts, and airplanes while their official public salaries are a few hundred thousand per year.

It really is a wide difference in degree.

Try 'The Quiet Coup', Simon Johnson [0].

[0] https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2009/05/the-qui...

our oligarchs are more subtle in how they deal with things. the last time citizens tried to call out our oligarchs in a significant, grassroots way, they invented & deployed modern identity politics so we'd stop #occupying and start in-fighting—we still have yet to recover.

Sure, you can see a lot of shallow similarities between these two groups but it would miss a pretty important structural difference.

Oligarchs don't have power outside the authoritarian apparatus of the state. Oligarchs exist entirely at the pleasure of the leader and have no true autonomy. If an Oligarch tries to 'branch out', they end up in jail or dead.