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Re:CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach ... by cryptonector on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @04:23PM (#30691078)
It's a very small step from this to disappearing and torturing dissidents at home. With The View calling for Tucker Carlson to be tried for treason by a military tribunal, I think we're approaching that point.

Then when we get there and someone disappears (say, a colleague, a friend of a friend), some will think and even say "they must have done something". How do I know? Because that is what happened in Argentina during its Dirty War. Oh, I know, most of you will say "that could never happen in my country because we're a first-world Western nation", but Argentina very much was and still is a Western country, complete with rule of law ("Estado del Derecho"), and it was much wealthier then relative to the rest of the world, and had been truly first world in 1950. So, yes, these things very much can happen here in the U.S., and in Canada, and in the UK, and in France and Germany and Spain and Italy and Netherlands and Belgium and Norway and Sweden and so on.

It takes a very small number of men to do most of the torturing and killing domestically. Sure, lots more are needed to do the arresting (disappearing) of victims. But not very many need to get down and dirty. Just ten men killing 150 victims/year would have covered the majority of the killings in the Dirty War over six years.

Re:CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach ... by lesuorac on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @04:31PM (#30691193)
> With The View calling for Tucker Carlson to be tried for treason by a military tribunal

Isn't that the exact opposite of disappearing?

I think the examples you're looking for are DHS hotel/detention centers [1] and Chicago's hidden detention centers [2].

[1]: https://abcnews.go.com/Business/marriott-choice-hotels-serve... [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homan_Square_facility

Re:CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach ... by cryptonector on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @05:32PM (#30692047)
> Isn't that the exact opposite of disappearing?

Asking for a civilian to be tried for treason by a military tribunal for saying... the same things that a government official has said, but in a way that makes the government look bad, is the same thing as abandoning the rule of law.

We've only ever done such things during the Civil War, and even then Lincoln only suspended Habeas Corpus in limited places as needed. And Lincoln violated the Constitution in that case, as suspension of Habeas Corpus is, by its location in Article I of the U.S. Constitution, clearly only something Congress can do (though Article I, section 9(2), does not actually say so), and Chief Justice Taney correctly concluded as much in Ex Parte Merryman. (That said, I think Lincoln by and large did the right thing.)

Yes, we've had wartime restrictions on speech that sucked and were not constitutional and should not have been used at all, both in WWI and WWII. But we didn't treat such speech as Treason, nor did we have military tribunals for those speakers, nor did we suspend Habeas Corpus at any time other than during the Civil War. And those were declared wars. Trial of civilians by military tribunals is really only something you'd expect in a civil war, and only when the constitutional order has fallen apart.

Re:CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach ... by lesuorac on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @11:57PM (#30695148)
> Asking for a civilian to be tried for treason by a military tribunal for saying... the same things that a government official has said, but in a way that makes the government look bad, is the same thing as abandoning the rule of law.z

But that's not disappearing. Assuming the tribunal found him guilty and gave him X punishment everybody would know (Obviously assuming the tribunal found him not guilty then he wouldn't be punished anyways).

Disappearing would be when your neighbor that always lets his goats chew all of your grass tells the cia that you're a terrorist so they come (and nobody else knows where you went) and get in the middle of the night so you won't keep chasing his goats away.

Re:CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach ... by cryptonector on Wednesday March 16, 2022 @02:41AM (#30695976)
> But that's not disappearing.

I didn't say it was. I said it's getting us closer to that world.

> Disappearing would be when ...

Disappearing is when a civilian gets taken (doesn't matter the time of the day, whether anyone notices or not), and the person in question does not get an arraignment in any open court nor any followup open court proceedings (e.g., trial), and where family gets no access to the person, with no way to determine their whereabouts and health or even if they remain living, typically for a prolonged period of time.

(Sometimes the family of a disappeared has connections and can get them released quickly, but most often the family does not, the authorities lie or refuse to say anything about the case, and the person languishes for years before being released unless they die or are killed during the time that they are held in this way.)

In other words: disappearing == unconstitutional denial of Habeas Corpus, often paired with torture and/or murder. A breakdown of the rule of law and constitutional order.

The English invented Habeas Corpus (to my knowledge anyways), and I suspect that they must have had some experience with disappearances during one of their 17th century civil wars.

When Habeas Corpus is suspended pursuant to the Constitution, and a civilian is arrested, and the family is allowed to see them during the time that the person is held, then that is not a disappearance, though the constitutionality of the suspension of Habeas Corpus may be suspect. When constitutional order is restored, the expectation would be that the person would be released or arraigned. Considering that in the U.S. Congress has never suspended Habeas Corpus, and that Lincoln did suspend it, but only in limited areas and during limited times during the Civil War, we should consider that the circumstances that legitimately call for suspending Habeas Corpus must be extreme. Certainly the current situation in Ukraine does not remotely call for the suspension of Habeas Corpus in the U.S., nor for anything like military tribunal trials for public persons who make their opinions heard. It is my fear that calls for the latter are a bad omen presaging the denial of Habeas Corpus.

Re:CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach ... by LadyCailin on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @08:06PM (#30693597)
Why is a military tribunal so bad? And if they’re bad, why are they used for military personnel? I can’t recall anything in the constitution suggesting that military personnel are exempted from having constitutional rights.
Re:CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach ... by cryptonector on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @08:12PM (#30693644)
The Constitution specifically provides for Article III courts for civilians. Using military courts for civilians would be a gross violation of the Constitution.

Military tribunals are used for military personnel because that is part of the deal, and our military services are professional (not conscripted). Yes, the UCMJ would apply to conscripts, should we return to conscription, but conscripts would still not be civilians, and most civilians would not be conscripts.

Re:CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach ... by cryptonector on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @06:19PM (#30692658)
Yes, the Homan Sq. facility kinda counts. As for ICE, well, it's somewhat different for people who aren't U.S. persons and aren't legally tourists or temporary residents, though, of course, that should not be license to disappear them, just to deport them (which is not at all the same thing).
Re:CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach ... by emilsedgh on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @06:38PM (#30692869)
You don't need hypothetical Tucker Carlson situations in a world where Julian Assange and Ed Snowden are alive.

I live in the US now but I come from a third world country (Iran) where such atrocities are commonplace. And let me tell you. What is happening to Assange shows that when it matters, the intelligence community is above the law and not that different from those bizarre authoritarian regimes. It's just that their propaganda machine is just more successful at "spinning the stories" and making people believe Ed Snowden and Julian Assange are anything but heroes.

Re:CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach ... by cryptonector on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @07:35PM (#30693367)
Snowden was a government employee, so he's not as good an example as Assange, but otherwise, yes, I agree. The point about Carlson is that things are getting dicier now -- not that it's surprising, mind you. I don't mean that I care more about Carlson than Assange -- I mean that what is being threatened regarding Carlson is much beyond what was done to Assange.
Re:CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach ... by kerryoco on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @09:11PM (#30694075)
the rhetoric on all sides has been hyperbolic for years - I imagine if we could graph the use of "treason" or "lock [X] up" in public discourse we would see an explosion around 2014 and continuing straight to today.

What gives me hope is:

a) McCarthyism (surely that was worse, yet we made it through)

b) this language is happening on privately funded cable news that approx 5% (I believe) of Americans watch on a daily basis. That's a far better place than coming from government officials.

Re:CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach ... by nkmnz on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @07:40PM (#30693416)
> So, yes, these things very much can happen here in the U.S., and in Canada, and in the UK, and in France and Germany and Spain and Italy and Netherlands and Belgium and Norway and Sweden and so on.

These things not only „can happen“, they happened in the not too distant past - much less than a generation ago:

1. There is strong evidence that the CIA ran - and maybe still runs - black sites across Europe used to kidnap people and bring them to Afghanistan or Guantanamo for torture. 2. At least half of Germany used to be a socialist dictatorship until 1990. People disappeared on a regular basis - and those responsible for kidnapping, torturing and killing dissidents still live among us, as our neighbors, as businessmen or members of parliament.

Re:CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach ... by cryptonector on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @08:07PM (#30693615)
Yes, and "those people probably did something" :(
Re:CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach ... by halfnormalform on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @07:02PM (#30693087)
Excusing your whataboutism, it isn’t hard to argue he’s a foreign agent.
Re:CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach ... by cryptonector on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @07:37PM (#30693392)
Carlson, a foreign agent? It's just as easy to accuse you of shilling. Please be serious. And if you are, then we're in deeper trouble than I'd thought.
Re:CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach ... by libraryatnight on Tuesday March 15, 2022 @11:09PM (#30694912)
He seems more like an unscrupulous jackass than a foreign agent. Rachel Maddow seems just as ridiculous and stupid, but she seems far less dangerous and I'm not sure why that is. All the 24 hour news stations are FUD engines, but Fox and Carlson in particular have this urgency to everything they say - it's always the end of the world, an agenda, everyone is out to get you all the time. It's exhausting. That said he doesn't seem like a foreign agent, just a typical Fox News personality.
Re:CIA black site detainee served as training prop to teach ... by StanislavPetrov on Wednesday March 16, 2022 @12:19AM (#30695279)
It isn't hard to argue a lot of things that are blatantly false and absurd because, unfortunately, in this day and age so many lack basic critical thinking skills and the capacity to make and understand logical arguments.