But Ukraine isn't in NATO and East Ukrainians identify as Russian.

Ukraine wants to join NATO. And, if they join NATO, rules can be bent, and they can do anything which Russia doesn't like. What would happen to Crimea if Ukraine had joined NATO in 2020 or 2021?

I watched a brilliant interview with Vladimir Klitschko with him basically saying that Ukraine is part of Europe. Why are you standing by and not defending this European country? It was the way he said it, so brilliant and convincing.

Ukraine has won the information war in a total wipe out.

> East Ukrainians identify as Russian

This is not true, ignorant, and parrots hateful Russian state propaganda.

So my friend from Ukraine is lying and reciting Russian state propaganda? If there was ever a time for him to be anti-Russia, presumably, it would be whilst his country is being invaded.

I guess you're right. I'm clearly ignorant for trying to wade through the immense amount of propaganda from both sides[1] here by getting some insight from someone born and raised in Kyiv.

Also, I think Russian state-backed media is banned in the US now (where I am), but I could be wrong.

1: https://foreignpolicy.com/2013/07/14/u-s-repeals-propaganda-...

> So my friend from Ukraine is lying and reciting Russian state propaganda?

I'm Ukrainian from South. Yes, he's lying. They might speak Russian or be sceptical about decisions that our government makes, but they're in no way identify themselves as Russians.

Accepting the most radical point of view of the state massacring civilians in another country is not "trying to wade through the immense amount of propaganda from both sides". Even if your friend "born and raised in Kyiv" is real, lived in Ukraine in recent decades and its their actual point of view that Ukrainians == Russians, that's still just an anecdote. And well, because of people with the views like that, horrible atrocities are justified.

Russian state-backed media is not "banned" in the US (who, exactly, would do this universal "ban"?), and the fact that you think such a thing is even possible makes me suspicious of your claim that you're from or are currently in the US to begin with...

I find it curious that you mentioned the us banning Russian propaganda, but no mention of Russia going full great firewall the past few weeks

I hope that these people are just paid Russian trolls cause if that many people in the West are following Russian propaganda so blindly, the future is bleak. Russia has not produced anything of value to humanity in decades, just suffering and decay of common sense.

I was trying to refute the claims of the GP. Please don't insinuate I'm on Russia's side because I'm trying to understand both sides of this horrific situation. It's possible to be pro-Ukraine but also see why Putin invaded.*

We need nuance rather than black-or-white positions.

*: I'm still trying to wrap my head around this.

Not an explanation for my question but sure. I will believe you. I just see the same talking points as RT, which is why I was curious

And Bostoners identify as Irish. Should Ireland annex it?

> East Ukrainians identify as Russian.

And of course you have a source for that?

No I mean NATO, not the US, would fight for Ukraine, not the US.

And yours is an "is" argument, I'm giving an "ought" argument. NATO ought to fight for Ukraine, because Ukraine is asking NATO to do so.

You think NATO ex-U.S. would fight better than the Russians? What would the order of battle be like?

The US is a member of NATO, so why would it be NATO ex-U.S.?