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Re:RISC-V is succeeding by kllrnohj on Tuesday March 01, 2022 @01:31PM (#30517979)
> Frankly, unless ARM does radically change their business model, I do not expect them to survive.

Survive what? I don't see RISC-V disrupting much of ARM's bigger-named business (eg, phones, with some inroads into other things like Apple Silicon & laptops). Maybe Amazon pivots into RISC-V for the next Graviton? But that also seems unlikely unless someone with very deep pockets invests in making an actually competitive RISC-V CPU core at the mid/high end.

ARM's low-end market seems likely to be taken over by RISC-V. So like the Cortex M series days seem numbered without a change in the business model. But that seems like about it.

Re:RISC-V is succeeding by throw0101a on Tuesday March 01, 2022 @01:38PM (#30518085)
> Survive what? I don't see RISC-V disrupting much of ARM's bigger-named business (eg, phones, with some inroads into other things like Apple Silicon & laptops).

Go back a decade or so: how many people thought that ARM could compete against Intel/AMD?

Re:RISC-V is succeeding by mcpherrinm on Tuesday March 01, 2022 @02:00PM (#30518451)
One decade ago was 2012.

Chromebooks on ARM have already been out for a year. Windows RT for ARM was coming out later in the year. Smart phones are clearly all going ARM. The 64 bit ARM spec was out and people were excited about it.

I think it was a lot clearer that ARM was going to succeed x86, as compared to looking forwards now as to where RISCV will beat ARM.

I do suspect the microcontroller ecosystem will have lots of RISC-V. But it seems a lot less clear that it will succeed ARM in the mobile/laptop/desktop/server markets. I personally do not think that’ll likely happen any time soon.

Re:RISC-V is succeeding by pclmulqdq on Tuesday March 01, 2022 @06:49PM (#30521661)
The microcontroller space is where the cost of the ISA really matters, too. Most of the other IP in a microcontroller is cheap. If you compare that to a mobile SoC, the CPU core often isn't even the most expensive block.
Re:RISC-V is succeeding by kllrnohj on Tuesday March 01, 2022 @01:59PM (#30518433)
ARM still isn't really competing against Intel/AMD. It took an entirely new form factory that radically changed the consumer landscape for ARM to get a foothold at all. What is RISC-V's smartphone explosion?

ARM has so far, outside of Apple and very limited cloud experiements (and some very badly received laptop experiments), not really put a dent in Intel/AMD's markets. But all of this was fueled by the once-in-a-generation explosion that gave ARM untold increases in adoption "for free". RISC-V has seemingly nothing similar, and RISC-V itself certainly isn't manufacturing any such radical shift.

Re:RISC-V is succeeding by burnoutgal on Tuesday March 01, 2022 @02:21PM (#30518742)
Graviton2 is generally available and depending on your codebase and dependencies can be a drop-in replacement. I was amazed at the breadth of ARM docker images that exist for common use cases.
Re:RISC-V is succeeding by mekster on Tuesday March 01, 2022 @10:49PM (#30523423)
Umm, ARM has the share in the phone market where Intel/ AMD couldn't make a dent...

It's a matter of time other shares will be eaten when x86 is having hard time innovating over its decades old design.

More battery time for consumers laptop and less electricity bill for cloud vendors are something very attractive.

Re:RISC-V is succeeding by kllrnohj on Wednesday March 02, 2022 @09:04AM (#30527389)
> Umm, ARM has the share in the phone market where Intel/ AMD couldn't make a dent...

Yes, obviously, which I mentioned repeatedly. For ARM to be successful outside of embedded it took an entirely new category of device to appear. What's RISC-V's entirely new category of device where it happens to be uniquely positioned?

> It's a matter of time other shares will be eaten when x86 is having hard time innovating over its decades old design.

Based off of what? The only ARM CPU that isn't thoroughly outclassed by AMD & Intel's x86 CPUs is Apple's, and Apple sure isn't licensing that to anyone. And so far every time ARM has tried to enter the domain of x86 it's been either absolutely embarrassingly bad (laptops) or mediocre at best and only for the very latest generation at that (servers)

> less electricity bill for cloud vendors

ARM server CPUs have the ~same 250W TDPs of Intel & AMD server CPUs. There's no power savings to be had here.

Re:RISC-V is succeeding by ksec on Tuesday March 01, 2022 @11:13PM (#30523613)
>Go back a decade or so: how many people thought that ARM could compete against Intel/AMD?

Hello, that would be me? :)

A decade ago was 2011 / 2012. Not a lot ( if not zero ). Even Anand from Anandtech was still cheering on Intel because of Intel's foundry leadership.

Wrote it on Anandtech and AppleInsider ( probably on HN with my old account as well ) the moment Intel decide not to make chips for iPhone or Fab Chips for iPhone in 2011. That was before Intel announced their Customer Foundry. They later went to do a JV with a Chinese company which later become Spreadtrum now known as Unisoc.

The whole reason why Arm competed against Intel and AMD wasn't because of ARM the ISA. It was the business interest and Foundry model. On a projected annual 1.5B Smartphone shipment by 2020 ( Which turns out to be a little too optimistic ), and 150M PC shipment by 2020 and continue to trend downwards. ( A little too pessimistic ) Even had TSMC not taken over the leading edge crown or stayed one node behind Intel the market today would still have been the same. The smartphone market was far bigger than the PC. This actually ties to why people were dismissing moore's law in the late 00s and early 10s. And it was the economy scales that wins.

What turns out to be wrong though was Tablet didn't take over PC. We are not in a Post-PC world. E-Sport (x86) picks up and PC as a Gaming platform is bigger than anyone could imagine. PS4 would move to x86 ( I dont think rumours of PS4 on AMD x86 even began til early 2012, and only partly confirmed by 2013 ) GPU is no longer a Gaming niche but a fundamental in Data Science. The hype of so called Cloud where everyone laughed at or sceptical of ( that is including me ) turns out to be multiple order of magnitude bigger as well. x86 ( Intel / AMD ) thrives because of that.

Re:RISC-V is succeeding by dboreham on Tuesday March 01, 2022 @09:16PM (#30522874)
I worked in the CPU business 30 years ago and it was clear then that ARM would be very competitive. I was in the UK. Perhaps that made a difference.
Re:RISC-V is succeeding by CalChris on Tuesday March 01, 2022 @02:34PM (#30518908)
RISC-V is more than a decade old.
Re:RISC-V is succeeding by uxp100 on Tuesday March 01, 2022 @01:51PM (#30518296)
A decade ago Microsoft was releasing ARM based laptops (or laptop like tablets if you insist). They were slow as hell Tegra 3 disappointments, but it was happening 10 years ago.
Re:RISC-V is succeeding by wongarsu on Tuesday March 01, 2022 @02:14PM (#30518650)
Their phone business is probably safe for now, but as you said they are set to lose a lot of their embedded business. The stuff that powers your HDD, your fridge, your IoT devices. Lots of high volume use cases
Re:RISC-V is succeeding by SV_BubbleTime on Tuesday March 01, 2022 @04:08PM (#30520021)
IDK about Cortex M being soon overtaken by RISCV.

There is a huge discussion about peripherals and IP. You can buy peripherals for ARM all day long, they’ll work from one chip to another for the most part. Once everyone can “make their own CPU”, expect fragmentation in the peripheral interfaces.

I think low end cortex A and R are where V will shine first. Something like a CISCO IP phone, not an iPhone.

Re:RISC-V is succeeding by webmaven on Tuesday March 01, 2022 @05:33PM (#30520963)
> ARM's low-end market seems likely to be taken over by RISC-V. So like the Cortex M series days seem numbered without a change in the business model. But that seems like about it.

Doesn't that inevitably set up a classic Innovator's Dilemma?

Re:RISC-V is succeeding by kllrnohj on Tuesday March 01, 2022 @05:55PM (#30521187)
I don't think so. ARM may just not care about losing that market. The CPUs they design at that ultra-low-end really don't carry over into the mid & high ends, which is where the high profile design wins & "high" (relatively) margins are anyway. Like what makes for a good hard drive controller doesn't really have anything at all to do with what makes a good smartphone CPU. So RISC-V winning at hard drive controllers or other (tiny) embedded usages is not really setting up an "S" curve for explosion here to challenge ARM's markets. They are really fundamentally different markets & products.

Kinda like how Intel just never cared about going after embedded, and they're not exactly struggling as a result of that. With the big asterisk of smartphones where scaling up proved a quicker path to shipping than scaling down, at which point inertia took over, but for that to repeat would require a currently unknown new product category.

Re:RISC-V is succeeding by webmaven on Friday March 04, 2022 @07:52PM (#30562707)
I'd bet on AR glasses that somehow need to squeeze the compute power of a midrange cellphone into the form factor of a pair of glasses.