News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:RISC-V is succeeding by PaulHoule on Tuesday March 01, 2022 @11:35AM (#30516305)
My take is that RISC-V is not that great of an architecture and might never compete at the high end. (e.g displace ARM, Intel, POWER, etc.)

On the other hand there is a vast market for low-end CPUs that have specializations to be disk controllers and things like that. If the ISA and all the IP required to make specialized devices is free and particularly if there is a culture in which it is easy to learn how to do that then RISC-V will have a special place.

My next spatial computing project is going to be RP 2040 based mostly because I have the parts in stock (other projects are blocked because of supply chain issues) but I am really an AVR8 fanatic and the only path forward I see to higher performance AVR8 systems is a soft core running on an FPGA where very hard tasks (vision? comms?) get offloaded to the FPGA and that can be a very appealing architecture where somebody might prefer RISC-V particularly if the tooling and accelerator integration are there.)

Re:RISC-V is succeeding by zozbot234 on Tuesday March 01, 2022 @11:44AM (#30516386)
> might never compete at the high end. (e.g displace ARM, Intel, POWER, etc.)

It might also be successful, even in that segment. The RISC-V ISA was specifically designed to scale up (e.g. to OOO and vector processors) while still being very simple, especially at the low-end - a basic RV32E is really comparable in complexity with many real-world 8- and 16-bit chips.

Re:RISC-V is succeeding by jabl on Wednesday March 02, 2022 @02:24AM (#30524733)
The pretty minimal RV32EC core Ibex is estimated 15k gates: https://github.com/lowRISC/ibex

But, the similarly minimal Arm Cortex M0 is, drumroll, 12k gates.

Not saying this means Arm is better than RISC-V, such a small difference can probably be explained by some microarchitectural feature or lack of it. Just that you can scale down Arm as well.

But yes, I can see tiny chips like these putting a squeeze on 8 and 16 bit microcontrollers.

Re:RISC-V is succeeding by snvzz on Tuesday March 01, 2022 @12:10PM (#30516741)
>My take is that RISC-V is not that great of an architecture

That's not the impression I got, when I studied the specification.

Do you care to elaborate?

Re:RISC-V is succeeding by PaulHoule on Tuesday March 01, 2022 @12:26PM (#30517006)
Re:RISC-V is succeeding by snvzz on Tuesday March 01, 2022 @12:33PM (#30517103)
From your statement, I thought you had looked into it yourself.

I remember reading that ex-ARM employee's take back then, when it was discussed here[0]. It was based in a pre-standard version of the ISA which was already old at that point in time, and also ignored the rationale behind many of the decisions it criticized.

By objective metrics (simplicity of instruction set, features available, code density, absence of µarch assumptions), I find RISC-V to be the best general purpose ISA available at the present time.

[0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24958423

Re:RISC-V is succeeding by mhh__ on Tuesday March 01, 2022 @12:48PM (#30517331)
These objective metrics are not even close to being tested at the moment, whereas aarch64 has made noticeably different decisions guided by real life. They might be wrong but I can't see confidently say riscv is actually better other than simplicity.

If the macro fusions don't work for example that's a pretty dramatic blow against RISC-V compared to aarch64. Similarly code density is a tradeoff because riscv's simplicity means more instructions in the first place i.e. requires actual battle testing first.

Re:RISC-V is succeeding by hajile on Tuesday March 01, 2022 @03:39PM (#30519684)
Jim Keller is overseeing a very large RISC-V core that should be around the same performance level as X1 or Zen 3. I guess we'll see what the ISA can do pretty soon.

He said they were talking about open-sourcing the CPU block. If they did (the CPU isn't their core business), we could see lots of RISC-V competition popping up. The age of CPUs being commodity items seems to be approaching.

https://youtu.be/KOHQQyAKY14?t=494

Re:RISC-V is succeeding by mhh__ on Wednesday March 02, 2022 @12:26AM (#30524079)
That is definitely a phat core but I wouldn't expect it to be exactly trading blows with Zen3 or alder lake given (that depends on one's definition of "around the same" I suppose) since the backend seems quite narrow. That might be all they need for AI however, going to watch the video tomorrow. It has big caches by the looks of things but the throughput is more like Zen2 depending on what they can clock it at.

Either way I don't think anyone is seriously arguing you can't make a high-performance RISC-V process, but the thing is that scaling from (say) fast at memory and basic integer operations all the way up to all the sometimes wacky shit people want from their desktop machines will probably not be easy. It took Apple decades to do it with an ISA they helped design themselves.

Re:RISC-V is succeeding by hajile on Wednesday March 02, 2022 @04:04PM (#30533128)
https://images.anandtech.com/doci/15813/A78-X1-crop-23.png

They didn’t mention how many branch units they have, but the ALU count is identical to X1.

They have half the SIMD units, but each unit is twice the width which increases instruction density on high performance workloads.

Re:RISC-V is succeeding by ksec on Wednesday March 02, 2022 @01:43AM (#30524474)
They are planning to open the Small CPU core, the packet processor and the vector processing unit. NOT the actual high performance RISC-V core.

I also think the high performance here is a relative term to their small core.

Re:RISC-V is succeeding by jabl on Tuesday March 01, 2022 @01:29PM (#30517955)
The bitmanip extension that is scheduled to be part of the RVA22 profile will contain add with shift instructions (d= a + b<<c), which should obviate the need for one of the more common issues that otherwise would need fusion.
Re:RISC-V is succeeding by imtringued on Wednesday March 02, 2022 @07:02AM (#30526377)
I thought that at first but the truth is that x86 and ARM are stuck in a certain mindset, their instruction sets are so complicated it is impossible to mix compressed and uncompressed instructions. Once you consider compression then RISC-V is on average slightly denser than x86. Compression will be everywhere by default.

The only really janky part is the fusion of more than 3 instructions. Now that is insane. However, it is like energy storage for renewables. Once you have an electric grid that can store days worth of energy that's actually extremely amazing. The old way of doing things will be viewed as something cavemen or barbarians did. If macro op fusion scales beyond 3 instructions then RISC V will easily beat other architectures because 2 is the limit for every other architecture.

Re:RISC-V is succeeding by snvzz on Tuesday March 08, 2022 @02:45PM (#30605576)
>Once you consider compression then RISC-V is on average slightly denser than x86.

A note for those not following: RISC-V as in RV64GC. x86 as in 32bit x86.

64bit x86 aka x86-64 aka amd64 is dramatically worse in code density.

Re:RISC-V is succeeding by socialdemocrat on Tuesday March 01, 2022 @09:38PM (#30522992)
High end today requires specialized chips. E.g. if you want massive parallel processing you would want small cores, because you can make more of those. RISC-V gives that kind of flexibility of designing minimalist cores which can then be repeated a thousand times on a silicon die. The same thing that are beneficial for cheap specialized hardware is also often beneficial for high-end stuff, where you really need parallelism to push performance.

Whether you are designing a server chip or machine learning powerhouse it is all about having lots of cores. To get more cores you need smaller cores and RISC-V has demonstrated they can make small cores of half the size of an ARM core with similar performance.

RISC-V simplicity really starts paying off once you go very small.