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Re:Moral injury can occur in many contexts and populations, ... by liveinspain55 on Tuesday February 22, 2022 @08:47PM (#30436542)
Others can correct me, but I don't think that's an example of a dark pattern.

Intrusive, maybe, but a dark pattern is 'deceit by design' whereas what you're describing seems to me 'being slightly annoying by design', which is a totally different thing.

Thinking about Exit Intent and how to optimize for it is a fairly well established part of online eCommerce. I think you made the wrong choice and your boss was probably right to be annoyed with you. It's within their prerogative to decide what user experience they offer to their users. And obviously, it's also yours to quit, but if you do so based on a poor understanding of what a dark pattern is, you're just hindering yourself.

Re:Moral injury can occur in many contexts and populations, ... by ehnto on Tuesday February 22, 2022 @09:03PM (#30436679)
> Thinking about Exit Intent and how to optimize for it is a fairly well established part of online eCommerce.

Just because something is institutionalized doesn't mean it's right. Especially when that institution is eCommerce, one of the most manipulative industries in software.

I would ammend your description of dark patterns to "Deciept and manipulation by design" to see this through the lens most people do.

Re:Moral injury can occur in many contexts and populations, ... by verve_rat on Tuesday February 22, 2022 @09:03PM (#30436678)
The user wants to leave the site. The site stops them from leaving. That sounds pretty dark to me.

Just because something is "a fairly well established part of online eCommerce" doesn't mean it is not a shitty thing to do.

Re:Moral injury can occur in many contexts and populations, ... by liveinspain55 on Wednesday February 23, 2022 @05:11PM (#30447265)
First - the site doesn't stop them from leaving.

Second - I didn't say it's not shitty.

I wouldn't normally nit pick on terms but this is a conversation about words and their definitions.

Dark Patterns are a deliberate attempt to defraud or deceive through the use of UI.

There are many things that are shitty - country music for one - that are not dark patterns.

Just because you and I both don't like exit intent popups, doesn't make them something that should be criminalised.

Dark Patterns describe activity that either is or should be criminal. The difference is enormous.

Re:Moral injury can occur in many contexts and populations, ... by Wiseacre on Wednesday February 23, 2022 @12:36AM (#30438024)
'It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.'
Re:Moral injury can occur in many contexts and populations, ... by strogonoff on Tuesday February 22, 2022 @10:20PM (#30437193)
Some websites optimize exit intent by breaking the back button. Some malls optimize for it by making themselves difficult to navigate. It may not be a dark pattern to you, because you know how it works, but it might influence another person. I hope there will always be engineers and designers who refuse to implement them.
Re:Moral injury can occur in many contexts and populations, ... by sizzle on Wednesday February 23, 2022 @07:37PM (#30448816)
why does google allow them to abuse 'breaking the back button' by hijacking your history and overwriting it with the their website?

This should not be possible, it's a horrible jarring experience every time it happens to me when I click a questionable link and try to go back to the previous page.

Re:Moral injury can occur in many contexts and populations, ... by coldtea on Tuesday February 22, 2022 @09:17PM (#30436785)
It's close. The user wants to close the page, and you nag them again - with a deal that you could already have given them if you were honest.
Re:Moral injury can occur in many contexts and populations, ... by adhesive_wombat on Wednesday February 23, 2022 @02:20AM (#30438565)
"Don't go! I can change!"

Sadly it works too often in relationships as well as ecommerce.

Spoiler: no change is forthcoming.

Re:Moral injury can occur in many contexts and populations, ... by lamontcg on Tuesday February 22, 2022 @09:51PM (#30437003)
When everything is annoying by design it becomes a mental tax on everyone using the web. It might not be a dark pattern, but it is asshole design. Neither of which anyone should tolerate or defend.
Re:Moral injury can occur in many contexts and populations, ... by travisgriggs on Tuesday February 22, 2022 @11:38PM (#30437702)
> Intrusive, maybe, but a dark pattern is 'deceit by design' whereas what you're describing seems to me 'being slightly annoying by design', which is a totally different thing.

This is not a totally different thing. Both are examples of coercive/deceptive behavior. That makes them the same sort of thing, but differing by degree.

Re:Moral injury can occur in many contexts and populations, ... by dboreham on Tuesday February 22, 2022 @08:52PM (#30436591)
Definitely a dark pattern, for the record.
Re:Moral injury can occur in many contexts and populations, ... by liveinspain55 on Wednesday February 23, 2022 @05:07PM (#30447217)
if you can provide a source I'll be glad to see it. I checked multiple lists of dark patterns before posting.
Re:Moral injury can occur in many contexts and populations, ... by DeathArrow on Wednesday February 23, 2022 @04:48AM (#30439448)
>Intrusive, maybe, but a dark pattern is 'deceit by design' whereas what you're describing seems to me 'being slightly annoying by design', which is a totally different thing.

We'll call it shitty pattern if you dislike dark pattern.

Re:Moral injury can occur in many contexts and populations, ... by liveinspain55 on Wednesday February 23, 2022 @05:08PM (#30447231)
fine. Dark patterns involve a deliberate attempt to defraud/deceive. Expanding the definition is not helpful.
Re:Moral injury can occur in many contexts and populations, ... by kybernetikos on Wednesday February 23, 2022 @03:15AM (#30438851)
> if you do so based on a poor understanding of what a dark pattern is, you're just hindering yourself.

I expect that they refused to implement it because it was a practice they felt was bad ethically rather than because it matched some industry definition.

[dead]
Re:Moral injury can occur in many contexts and populations, ... by nickff on Tuesday February 22, 2022 @09:39PM (#30436922)
>"My sense is you have not only willingly swallowed, but have effectively transfused the industry's Kool-Aid directly into your bloodstream to the point where you are beyond any hope or prayer help."

There's no need for this kind of preface to your comment; you seem to have substantive points to discuss. Please refer to the HN guidelines:

>" When disagreeing, please reply to the argument instead of calling names. "That is idiotic; 1 + 1 is 2, not 3" can be shortened to "1 + 1 is 2, not 3." "

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re:Moral injury can occur in many contexts and populations, ... by vanusa on Wednesday February 23, 2022 @12:22PM (#30443573)
Point taken, thank you.
Re:Moral injury can occur in many contexts and populations, ... by rahimnathwani on Tuesday February 22, 2022 @09:37PM (#30436904)
It's annoying, but not deceitful.
Re:Moral injury can occur in many contexts and populations, ... by runnerup on Tuesday February 22, 2022 @09:48PM (#30436975)
Just curious which of these you'd consider annoying vs. something more than annoying. This isn't just a lazy slippery slope line of argument, but rather an inquiry to see what the absolute limit might be for the most tolerant 1% of the HN population. I'm genuinely curious what is the most extreme situation for which someone would still say "Oh that's quite annoying, but still acceptable."

a) What if it was two confirmation popups before you had to leave the page?

b) Three confirmation popups?

c) What if it let you navigate away for about 10 seconds, but then immediately reloaded the last Luxottica page you were on. It only does this once.

d) What if it let you navigate away for about 10 seconds, but then immediately reloaded the last Luxottica page you were on. It does this 2-3 times before it stops redirecting you back and lets you browse freely again.

e) What if it required you to complete a short 5-30 second interactive engagement advertisement-game activity popup before you could leave instead of just clicking "OK I really want to leave".

f) What if it never let you leave unless you quit the browser but you could open other tabs.

g) What if it controlled your browser in such a way that you couldn't quit the browser, and it maximized the window. You can still put other windows on top of it but when you close them, the luxottica store is behind everything until you shut down the whole computer.

h) What if it loaded that page which you can't close every time you started the browser. Only reinstalling the browser makes this stop, until you visit the Luxottica website again and it reloads this functionality again.

i) What if it automatically loaded this page as your desktop background and required downloading a special tool from GitHub to get rid of it.

j) What if it automatically rebranded your entire computer to display Gucci logos throughout the UI. Reinstalling the operating system is the only way to fix it.

Re:Moral injury can occur in many contexts and populations, ... by rahimnathwani on Tuesday February 22, 2022 @11:57PM (#30437836)
I said the popup was annoying but not deceitful. Those are two orthogonal axes.

Your question is about what's acceptable. My answer is:

1. If the site tricks me (makes me take an action that I would not have taken if the site had not misled me), that's unacceptable. So, roughly any degree of deceit is unacceptable to me.

2. If the site stops me from switching/closing tabs, or changes system settings (like the ones you describe) without me being cognizant of agreeing, that's unacceptable.

Showing 3 popups within a tab when I'm about to close it: that's annoying and douchy, and probably won't work on me, but I won't hate you for it.

From your list, c-j would definitely make me hate you. a and b might be OK if you're presenting me better offers (e.g. 10% off the first time, then 15%, finally 20% off the third time).

Re:Moral injury can occur in many contexts and populations, ... by gpderetta on Wednesday February 23, 2022 @04:59AM (#30439522)
> Showing 3 popups within a tab when I'm about to close it: that's annoying and douchy, and probably won't work on me, but I won't hate you for it.

That would be harassment. Not even borderline. How would you react if it were to happen on a physical shop?

Re:Moral injury can occur in many contexts and populations, ... by vanusa on Tuesday February 22, 2022 @10:49PM (#30437360)
If it appears to user as an "alert" to something they should "fix" or take special note of -- and it is specifically raised when your algorithm detects they are attempting to leave your website -- it is plainly deceitful.
Re:Moral injury can occur in many contexts and populations, ... by rahimnathwani on Wednesday February 23, 2022 @12:02AM (#30437862)
If a site shows me a special offer (e.g. an extra 10% off) when I'm about to abandon my cart, that's OK with me. Just like if I'm walking out of a store because I didn't get an acceptable price, and the owner calls to me as I'm passing through the doorway.

If the alert says something untrue or misleading (last day of sale, virus on computer, 1000th visitor) that's deceitful.

Re:Moral injury can occur in many contexts and populations, ... by pwdisswordfish9 on Wednesday February 23, 2022 @04:05AM (#30439188)
I would have preferred getting a good offer to begin with. That just reveals to me they were not offering their best before, which is kind of deceitful in itself. Why would I trust them to give me a good deal afterwards?

Plus, it incentivizes having to threaten to cancel a deal to get anywhere near acceptable terms. Fuck that.

Re:Moral injury can occur in many contexts and populations, ... by rahimnathwani on Wednesday February 23, 2022 @10:33AM (#30442105)
It's not deceitful to improve your offer during the course of a negotiation.
Re:Moral injury can occur in many contexts and populations, ... by vanusa on Wednesday February 23, 2022 @02:13PM (#30445017)
True in broad, general sense.

But basically off the page as regards to the specific UX patterns under discussion in this thread.

Re:Moral injury can occur in many contexts and populations, ... by rahimnathwani on Wednesday February 23, 2022 @02:56PM (#30445559)
The UX pattern I'm talking about it the one at the top of this comment thread.

This one:

"when someone tried to leave the site, bring up a popup to offer them a deal or otherwise encourage them not to leave"

Re:Moral injury can occur in many contexts and populations, ... by vanusa on Wednesday February 23, 2022 @05:41PM (#30447604)
Right - which is an extremely narrow subset of "changing your offer during the course of a negotiation". Meanwhile it has other intent-blocking attributes for which the "deceitful" label quite justly applies.

In other words: in the Venn diagram of the two buckets - the measure of overlap is quite small.