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Re:From macOS to FreeBSD by SamuelAdams on Friday February 18, 2022 @08:59AM (#30385713)
> The hardware itself also got worse. Removal of all but 2 USB-C ports from MacBook Pro was a last nail to the coffin for me.

Small correction, the latest MacBook Pro has 4 USB-c ports and an HDMI port

That said, is this really a big deal to people? Do you really still use Ethernet ports and USB-A ports directly on your laptop?

I use a docking station with a single USB-C cable to connect my Mac. Everything else connects to the dock. It’s simple, it works, I’ve had this setup for six months with zero issues. Linux computers also work the same way.

When I am working mobile, in a coffee shop or similar, I never use the ports. An external mouse would work with Bluetooth, and I’ve never needed to use external devices while on the go.

I don’t understand why people need a cocktail of barely used ports at all times. Is there a common workflow that I’m not aware of?

Re:From macOS to FreeBSD by hughrr on Friday February 18, 2022 @09:46AM (#30386348)
This. People need to buy a dock and stop whining. Or buy a desktop Mac in the first place and stop whining.

Oh I need Ethernet -> buy a dock (or fix your shitty wifi network).

Oh I need numerous USB devices -> buy a dock.

Oh I don't like BT devices -> buy a dock.

Oh I want to use some crusty old USB-A devices -> buy a dock.

Oh I want to use my mechanical keyboard and mouse -> why are you using a laptop? ... buy a dock

Dell sell a very nice Thunderbolt one that has 3x USB-A's, does PD, has two displayport outputs that work perfectly with the M1 macbooks (and PCs). I've got one. And it has a USB-A headset, mechanical keyboard and mouse connected to it and 2x 27" 4K displays with one single USB-C cable.

But screw all that I'd rather use the laptop built in devices (14" M1Pro MBP) and live a simpler life where I don't have a bunch of balls and chains hanging around forever.

Re:From macOS to FreeBSD by tjansen on Friday February 18, 2022 @09:55AM (#30386493)
... even better, if you can work with a single monitor, buy a USB-C monitor with built-in dock. They give you USB-A ports and sometimes also Ethernet. Dell has them in every size.
Re:From macOS to FreeBSD by ascagnel_ on Friday February 18, 2022 @10:02AM (#30386589)
This is what I ended up doing -- I got a (relatively) inexpensive LG 4K monitor with USB-C, DisplayPort, and 2x HDMI inputs, and the monitor has a built-in headphone jack and a pair of USB-A ports. Plug in one cable, and my laptop or tablet turn into an experience that gets you close-ish to a desktop (the iPad still has real issues when you're trying to run it primarily through an external monitor, mostly that it only occupies a small portion of the screen if the app isn't specifically designed to handle an external display).
Re:From macOS to FreeBSD by xtracto on Friday February 18, 2022 @10:37AM (#30387084)
Could you share the LG monitor model?
Re:From macOS to FreeBSD by ascagnel_ on Friday February 18, 2022 @12:48PM (#30388801)
LG 27UN850-W

It's a 2020 model, and they've updated it since then (the version listed on their website is 27UP850-W), but I don't think the panel itself has changed notably. I'd also recommend turning off the HDR support, especially if you're using it as a computer monitor -- all it seems to do is blow out reds and blues while undercooking greens.

Re:From macOS to FreeBSD by nudgeee on Saturday February 19, 2022 @06:16AM (#30396232)
I have this monitor too and love it, but there is one major caveat -- the USB hub only operates at USB 2.0 speeds (480Mbps) when using a single cable for both display and USB.
Re:From macOS to FreeBSD by ascagnel_ on Tuesday February 22, 2022 @04:12PM (#30433869)
This is an important caveat, but one I haven't stumbled over yet (I use the USB hub for M+KB and a 1080p webcam+mic, so I'm well under the 480Mbit limit).
Re:From macOS to FreeBSD by xtracto on Friday February 18, 2022 @03:41PM (#30390780)
Thanks a lot!
Re:From macOS to FreeBSD by slig on Friday February 18, 2022 @02:21PM (#30389964)
I got a Dell Ultrawide 38" for this reason. Unfortunately it has a charging USB-C bug that conflicts with Apple hardware and Dell doesn't care about. They explicitly tell that they only support Windows. The display is awesome, but still.
Re:From macOS to FreeBSD by tjansen on Sunday February 20, 2022 @03:39PM (#30409071)
Which bug? I also have a Dell 38", but never had any issues. Both MBP and a M1 Air work fine for me.
Re:From macOS to FreeBSD by slig on Monday February 21, 2022 @07:56AM (#30415381)
Re:From macOS to FreeBSD by Koshkin on Friday February 18, 2022 @10:47AM (#30387208)
Having to lug a dock around sorta defeats the promise of portability.
Re:From macOS to FreeBSD by hughrr on Friday February 18, 2022 @11:20AM (#30387672)
So does dragging around all the accessories that you "need" to plug into your laptop.

All I hear is the conflicting arguments:

1. I don't want to compromise on anything.

2. I want a laptop.

Re:From macOS to FreeBSD by brimble on Friday February 18, 2022 @02:34PM (#30390102)
You don't always know what you'll need to plug in to on a given day, when you leave the house.

Old Macs covered a bunch of those cases with built-in ports.

Modern ones cover a lot fewer so you have to carry more crap.

Re:From macOS to FreeBSD by hughrr on Friday February 18, 2022 @02:49PM (#30390247)
I’m not plugging in anything I don’t own for security reasons.
Re:From macOS to FreeBSD by brimble on Friday February 18, 2022 @03:08PM (#30390414)
Cool, you've flatly refused to assist/present-to the client, and will now be-fired/lose-the-contract.

See why people need to connect to stuff other than what they personally own?

Re:From macOS to FreeBSD by hughrr on Friday February 18, 2022 @04:41PM (#30391480)
I’ve never had that problem in 25 years of doing this.
Re:From macOS to FreeBSD by brimble on Friday February 18, 2022 @04:50PM (#30391570)
Lots of people use lots of ports that aren't USB-C, and are inconvenienced by having to carry dongles and extra cables if their laptop has very few kinds of built-in port. These people have actual needs and reasons behind their behavior. That's all. It's fine that you're not one of them.
Re:From macOS to FreeBSD by BeFlatXIII on Friday February 18, 2022 @03:54PM (#30390964)
Require people to throw away money on more docking stations? Not going to stop whining over that.
Re:From macOS to FreeBSD by ori_b on Friday February 18, 2022 @10:52AM (#30387282)
I don't want to carry around a collection of bits to have a fully equipped laptop. I want something compact that comes in one piece.
Re:From macOS to FreeBSD by hughrr on Friday February 18, 2022 @11:19AM (#30387647)
My laptop has all the right bits inside it. Doesn't yours?
Re:From macOS to FreeBSD by ori_b on Friday February 18, 2022 @11:49AM (#30388057)
Nope. No ergonomic mouse built into mine.
Re:From macOS to FreeBSD by schwartzworld on Friday February 18, 2022 @09:11AM (#30385845)
> That said, is this really a big deal to people? Do you really still use Ethernet ports and USB-A ports directly on your laptop?

I don't on my mac, because I can't. I don't like having to buy and carry a dongle. I don't like using bluetooth peripherals because they are more expensive and require charging the batteries. I don't like being forced to buy adaptors so all the USB tech I already own can continue to work with the MacBooks that every job insists I must use.

> I use a docking station with a single USB-C

Fine, but I don't want to carry a docking station when I'm on the go.

> An external mouse would work with Bluetooth

I already have a $100 trackball mouse and a $100 mechanical keyboard. I don't want to rebuy these items with (more expensive) Bluetooth versions since the wired versions should work for years and years to come. Very wasteful. Besides, batteries expire, and many bluetooth items don't have replaceable batteries. These items will stop working long before their wired counterparts.

> I’ve never needed to use external devices while on the go.

Makes sense you wouldn't understand the issue then. I use USB devices every day.

> I don’t understand why people need a cocktail of barely used ports at all times

I use my USB devices every day, and not one of them plugs natively into my computer anymore. USB-A devices are less expensive and more reliable than their BT and USBC counterparts.

Re:From macOS to FreeBSD by breakfastduck on Friday February 18, 2022 @09:39AM (#30386227)
I mean you could just use a USB-C cable and avoid every annoyance you've claimed.
Re:From macOS to FreeBSD by schwartzworld on Friday February 18, 2022 @11:02AM (#30387426)
How do I replace the cable on my trackball? Crack open the case and solder?
Re:From macOS to FreeBSD by dragonwriter on Friday February 18, 2022 @12:05PM (#30388249)
> USB-A devices

Are fairly rare, unless you are talking laptops/desktops (and other hosts), hubs, and wallwarts.

USB Micro-B is the most common on devices that aren't USB-C.

Micro-B devices connect to A hosts with an A-to-Micro-B cable, but you can connect them to C hosts with a C-to-Micro-B cable just as easily.

Re:From macOS to FreeBSD by brimble on Friday February 18, 2022 @02:38PM (#30390132)
> > USB-A devices

> Are fairly rare, unless you are talking laptops/desktops (and other hosts), hubs, and wallwarts.

A new device is still much more likely to arrive with a USB-A connector than USB-C. Most of the devices on the shelf at, say, Target, come ready to be plugged in to USB-A, not C.

Yes, you can get other cables or adapters. But if Macs hadn't dropped all USB-A ports, that wouldn't be necessary.

Re:From macOS to FreeBSD by schwartzworld on Friday February 18, 2022 @12:58PM (#30388938)
I'm speaking about devices with built-in cables, for example my Kensington Expert trackball, USB sound card, external webcam, etc.

Obviously I get by, but when using my Linux machine which has 3 USB ports, it's just simpler. I would never buy a mac in 2022, but work requires us to use one.

Re:From macOS to FreeBSD by brimble on Friday February 18, 2022 @11:52AM (#30388097)
> That said, is this really a big deal to people? Do you really still use Ethernet ports and USB-A ports directly on your laptop?

Every panel in my house supports HDMI (so, great that they added it back). ONE supports USB-C, and only because I bought it to use with a MacBook.

Probably 75-80% of USB devices in my house that I might want to plug into my laptop are still USB-A. That might hit 50/50 in another few years.

Re:From macOS to FreeBSD by dragonwriter on Friday February 18, 2022 @11:56AM (#30388147)
> Probably 75-80% of USB devices in my house that I might want to plug into my laptop are still USB-A.

That seems...improbable.

I would bet that most of the devices are USB Micro-B. They probably came with USB-A to Micro-B cables, but you can get USB-C to Micro-B cables, too, and since USB-C supports a superset of the modes supported over Micro-B, there is no reduction in function (as there might be connecting a USB-C device with a USB-A to USB-C cable.)

Of course, if you did need to connect a USB-A device to your laptop, a USB-A to USB-C cable will do that, and are much easier to find than USB-A to USB-A cables you'd need if it was a USB-A-only laptop.

Re:From macOS to FreeBSD by brimble on Friday February 18, 2022 @02:22PM (#30389976)
OK, let me rephrase:

- 100% of devices with a hard-wired cable are USB-A

- Most of the rest are USB-mini or USB-micro and 100% of the cables that came with them or that I've acquired since have an A connector on the other end.

- Nearly all my USB-C devices are for recent game consoles and I wouldn't plug them in to my MacBook except maybe to charge them.

> Of course, if you did need to connect a USB-A device to your laptop, a USB-A to USB-C cable will do that, and are much easier to find than USB-A to USB-A cables you'd need if it was a USB-A-only laptop.

Oh gee I didn't know adapters existed, thanks.

Re:From macOS to FreeBSD by normie3000 on Friday February 18, 2022 @09:01AM (#30385729)
> Do you really still use… USB-A ports directly on your laptop?

Yes.

Re:From macOS to FreeBSD by SamuelAdams on Friday February 18, 2022 @09:08AM (#30385803)
Ok. Is there any reason you can’t spend 10-20 dollars on USB-C cables to replace your USB-A cables?
Re:From macOS to FreeBSD by vanilla_nut on Friday February 18, 2022 @09:27AM (#30386055)
Considering the number of USB-A devices I still own, it would be considerably more than “20-30 dollars”. More like $200, and those are all devices, chargers, and travel/backup chargers I rely on regularly.

It’s not so simple to migrate. Consider:

- Some devices have a proprietary end and a USB-A end, and there’s no USB-C equivalent (my Pebble chargers; my microphone; my webcam). I have tried dongles with these before and left disappointed every time

- some devices have a USB-A cord attached permanently, such as my desk lamp. Again, dongles are unreliable here and thus a downgrade.

- For portable devices like my standalone GPS for bike touring, my lights for my bicycle, my phone, my watch, and anything else small I might want to charge when travelling by car… I still need USB-A for the car itself. Easier to pack one cable for the whole trip instead of a USB-C cord for hotels and a USB-A cord for the car.

- My personal laptop still has USB-A ports, but no USB-C ports. As far as I can tell there are no non-sketchy adapters that go from a male USB-C cable to a female USB-A port. Apple makes a very expensive Thunderbolt2<->Thunderbolt3 adapter that I use at my desk when I want to use my personal laptop there, but that adapter is $50 or so. Already over your budget.

- I don’t have any USB-C wall warts at all. The last phone I bought was the 2016 iPhone SE. I have a plethora of USB-A wall warts from family and friends who didn’t need them. They work well.

Why are some people so hellbent on removing functionality that other people use every day and can’t replace without significant expense and inconvenience? It’s just like the damn headphone jack on iPhones: I understand that a lot of people are fine with Bluetooth only, but I am not. It’s frustrating to lose the option.

Re:From macOS to FreeBSD by breakfastduck on Friday February 18, 2022 @09:42AM (#30386269)
> Why are some people so hellbent on removing functionality that other people use every day and can’t replace without significant expense and inconvenience?

I imagine you were outraged when laptops started replacing serial ports with USB-A, too.

Re:From macOS to FreeBSD by cavalierfrix on Friday February 18, 2022 @10:35AM (#30387060)
That's not really a fair comparison. USB has been around a long time and provides a lot of functionality.

I love USB-C on my phone and think it's a great upgrade, but I'm not interested in contributing to more e-waste to upgrade a laptop that doesn't need it, just so I can buy more ultimately e-waste adapters with USB-C.

For me, the best thing about USB-C on a laptop is universal charging. That's been a game changer.

Re:From macOS to FreeBSD by vanilla_nut on Sunday February 20, 2022 @12:10PM (#30407219)
Nope. Granted, I wasn't an adult at the time, but I just didn't have many peripherals that used the serial connection.

USB-C just doesn't have many benefits over USB-A for a huge number of peripherals and cables. It's useful for bandwidth for one webcam I own, but for my mouse, my keyboard, my e-reader, and most other devices... there's no difference other than the cable shape. It's enough of a sidegrade (and enough of a pain in the ass to deal with adapters) that it just isn't worthwhile. And, as I said -- backwards compatibility is a big issue for me, since my personal laptop only has USB-A/Thunderbolt 2 ports.

Not to mention the fact that my raspberry pi 4, which I'll be using as a lightweight home server for years, only has USB-C for power input... USB-A for all other peripherals. A minority of devices in my household (only one!), between my personal laptop, work laptop, home server, car, and wall warts, use USB-C. Upgrading would require a lot of inconvenience and redundancy.

Re:From macOS to FreeBSD by brimble on Friday February 18, 2022 @02:40PM (#30390156)
I think I had one serial device in my house when that happened. And only because I was a nerd (it was a 3-button mouse, IIRC).
Re:From macOS to FreeBSD by ascagnel_ on Friday February 18, 2022 @10:06AM (#30386636)
A better option would be to use USB-A to USB-C adapters -- a quick check of Amazon says you can buy one for $15USD[0]. This also side-steps the worry about devices with a proprietary "other end" or where the cable is unremovable -- all it's doing is changing the port shape on the host side.

[0]: https://smile.amazon.com/Anker-Adapter-Converts-Technology-C...

Re:From macOS to FreeBSD by vaylian on Friday February 18, 2022 @09:21AM (#30385961)
1. Some devices don't have a removable USB-A cable

2. Why throw away something that is perfectly working and useful?

Re:From macOS to FreeBSD by sbuk on Friday February 18, 2022 @01:16PM (#30389142)
You dont have to, spend $6.99 on a pack of 4 usb-a to c adapters instead.
Re:From macOS to FreeBSD by vaylian on Friday February 18, 2022 @09:10AM (#30385833)
Absolutely yes. I still have a lot of good external devices that use USB-A.
Re:From macOS to FreeBSD by eadmund on Friday February 18, 2022 @09:07AM (#30385800)
> Do you really still use Ethernet ports and USB-A ports directly on your laptop?

At my workstation, yes: Ethernet is so much faster than WiFi, and I like to use a real keyboard and mouse with a KVM, and the whole setup is USB-A & HDMI. Maybe in the future I will have a USB-C/HDMI/DisplayPort KVM, though.

> When I am working mobile, in a coffee shop or similar, I never use the ports.

Me neither, but I prefer to do my work in my home office, so my laptop spends most of its time in a stand, hooked up to an external portrait monitor, keyboard and mouse.

> An external mouse would work with Bluetooth

I would never use wireless with a peripheral. Batteries, security (for a keyboard; far less of a concern with a mouse), pairing. Just say no to RF, and yes to wires.

Re:From macOS to FreeBSD by Delk on Friday February 18, 2022 @12:29PM (#30388551)
> Do you really still use Ethernet ports and USB-A ports directly on your laptop?

For my personal laptop, my headset, USB flash drives and my external backup hard drives all use USB-A. So does the receiver for my old wireless mouse, although that one's old enough that almost everyone would probably have replaced it with something Bluetooth by now. There are also a bunch of older devices that I'm not using too often but which I haven't really had enough of a need to replace either.

Any of these would of course be simple enough to replace individually or to use with an adapter, but it's nicer to not have to bother, so yes, I do use them. It's not so much that most of them are a part of a common workflow for me (except for the mouse, but as I said, that one's pretty old and it's easy to argue it would make sense to replace it with a Bluetooth one anyway). It's more that it feels wasteful to have to replace working peripherals simply due to older connectors, and cumbersome to have to use adapters. If a new laptop didn't come with USB-A ports, I wouldn't revolt, but it'd probably irk me somewhat as it's convenient to have one or two.

A dock would also be fine, of course, but they can be a bit on the expensive side for private use.

Re:From macOS to FreeBSD by digisign on Friday February 18, 2022 @03:07PM (#30390398)
Yep, I have a dock but use the laptop USB-A ports a lot for flash drives.

Why? Because my stereo and car stereo only support USB-A. Would rather use sd-card.

Re:From macOS to FreeBSD by 7steps2much on Friday February 18, 2022 @10:57AM (#30387352)
> Do you really still use Ethernet ports and USB-A ports directly on your laptop?

Absolutely! I do have a dock at my desk of course, but every so often I need to go somewhere and plug into the network there or connect directly to some appliance that sets up a local network on one of its ports for configuration.

If I could just leave my laptop plugged into my docking station all the time I would get a tower PC.

Re:From macOS to FreeBSD by Klonoar on Friday February 18, 2022 @12:22PM (#30388452)
I keep a CalDigit dock on my desk and two small USB-C adapters (thumbprint sized) in my bag for when I travel and need Ethernet or to plug in my GameCube controller, for instance. I don’t understand people who call this “lugging around” - there’s very small setups out there.

Haven’t cared about an old school port in years. Just feels like an overblown concern, short of easier monitor hookup - but the newer MacBooks bringing that back makes this somewhat moot, and it should’ve never left to begin with.

Re:From macOS to FreeBSD by mistrial9 on Friday February 18, 2022 @09:01AM (#30385738)
I use real ethernet cable for database things every day, no question; many people are accustomed to an HDMI setup at their desk, with a carry-home laptop, right?
Re:From macOS to FreeBSD by SamuelAdams on Friday February 18, 2022 @09:06AM (#30385784)
Thought I would clarify, I also use an Ethernet connection. To the dock.

Do you basically pop open your laptop with just an Ethernet cable connected and work like that for 8 hours?

Sounds terrible to me, neck pain from constantly looking down at your laptop screen would not go well for me. External monitors mounted at eye level is the way to go.

Re:From macOS to FreeBSD by eadmund on Friday February 18, 2022 @09:10AM (#30385837)
> Sounds terrible to me, neck pain from constantly looking down at your laptop screen would not go well for me.

I have an external monitor and a stand for my laptop. It is pretty awesome.