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Re:The once-extinct aurochs may soon roam Europe again by AussieWog93 on Sunday February 13, 2022 @06:16PM (#30326579)
Reminds me of the conflict between German farmers and the Goverment over whether or not wolves should be a protected species. Plenty of city-dwellers support all forms of biodiversity, as long as somebody else has to deal with the mess.
Re:The once-extinct aurochs may soon roam Europe again by ScarletEmerald on Sunday February 13, 2022 @08:51PM (#30327590)
One sheep rancher I knew back in college was a huge fan of wolf reintroduction. According to him, the wolves killed a few sheep and almost all the coyotes, which meant he wasn't losing any sheep to coyotes. Which worked out to a major net decrease in "sheep lost to predators". That was twenty years ago, so maybe things have changed in intervening decades.
Re:The once-extinct aurochs may soon roam Europe again by vanderZwan on Sunday February 13, 2022 @06:19PM (#30326599)
Meanwhile, every Italian I know laughs at how Northern Europeans react to wolves as if they're a big deal and something to be afraid of. They're not.
Re:The once-extinct aurochs may soon roam Europe again by bitwize on Sunday February 13, 2022 @06:55PM (#30326889)
There're a fair number of Africans who laugh at how Europeans react to lions. Lions pose the same problems to Africans that wolves do to Europeans: they mainly take livestock and only rarely human life. In large part, any harm to humans caused by a lion is economic or secondary (e.g., starvation). In fact, lions know that if they eat a human, the human's tribe will hunt them down and retaliate (must've made for a very interesting day in Simba's circle-of-life training!), so only a sick or injured lion with few other choices for meat will attempt to eat a human.

Now the hippopotamus... that is an animal widely feared in Africa. They may look fat and silly and eat plants, but they give no fucks, and will charge and trample you without a second thought.

Re:The once-extinct aurochs may soon roam Europe again by thaumasiotes on Sunday February 13, 2022 @09:11PM (#30327706)
https://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/05/opinion/in-zimbabwe-we-do...

> When I turned on the news and discovered that the messages were about a lion killed by an American dentist, the village boy inside me instinctively cheered: One lion fewer to menace families like mine.

> My excitement was doused when I realized that the lion killer was being painted as the villain.

> In my village in Zimbabwe, surrounded by wildlife conservation areas, no lion has ever been beloved, or granted an affectionate nickname. They are objects of terror.

> When I was 9 years old, a solitary lion prowled villages near my home. After it killed a few chickens, some goats and finally a cow, we were warned to walk to school in groups and stop playing outside. My sisters no longer went alone to the river to collect water or wash dishes; my mother waited for my father and older brothers, armed with machetes, axes and spears, to escort her into the bush to collect firewood.

> The lion sucked the life out of the village: No one socialized by fires at night; no one dared stroll over to a neighbor’s homestead.

> When the lion was finally killed, no one cared whether its murderer was a local person or a white trophy hunter, whether it was poached or killed legally. We danced and sang about the vanquishing of the fearsome beast and our escape from serious harm.

> And please, don’t offer me condolences about Cecil unless you’re also willing to offer me condolences for villagers killed or left hungry by his brethren

The reason that most harm inflicted by lions is economic or secondary is that people go well out of their way to avoid meeting lions. That doesn't represent a small problem; it represents a gigantic problem.

Re:The once-extinct aurochs may soon roam Europe again by cheese_goddess on Sunday February 13, 2022 @08:12PM (#30327378)
And the rhinoceros will charge and trample your campfire, famously.
Re:The once-extinct aurochs may soon roam Europe again by stephenhuey on Sunday February 13, 2022 @09:02PM (#30327641)
The Gods Must Be Crazy was a childhood favorite of mine, but that’s actually a myth:

https://scoutlife.org/features/161345/7-animal-myths-that-ev...

But definitely keep your distance from hippos, the most dangerous animal in Africa. They kill hundreds to thousands of people per year.

Re:The once-extinct aurochs may soon roam Europe again by MrBuddyCasino on Monday February 14, 2022 @05:41AM (#30330470)
Thousands is probably pushing it, they kill around ~500 a year: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_deadliest_animals_to_h...
Re:The once-extinct aurochs may soon roam Europe again by stephenhuey on Tuesday February 15, 2022 @07:49AM (#30345753)
I saw that, but many other places cite numbers such as 3,000. Having lived on that continent for many years, I’d expect many would go unreported in official tallies.
Re:The once-extinct aurochs may soon roam Europe again by tomcam on Monday February 14, 2022 @12:13AM (#30328613)
You definitely have more interesting conversations than I have. I have known many people from Poland, many people from China, many from Mexico, and many people from Japan. Yet I was never smart enough to survey them systematically about their reactions to another country’s views on wolves.
Re:The once-extinct aurochs may soon roam Europe again by vanderZwan on Monday February 14, 2022 @05:49AM (#30330517)
All it takes is having lunch with fellow exchange students, or expat coworkers after graduating and deciding to stay in your country of study. Nothing complicated - although obviously not really a thing in the last few years.

I live in Sweden. The topic of a wolf crossing borders with Norway where the conservation laws are different comes up every few years. The attitude of people in different countries to wolves (or any topic of the day really) gets discussed.

Re:The once-extinct aurochs may soon roam Europe again by fleddr on Sunday February 13, 2022 @06:24PM (#30326637)
That's not really the problem, the problem is that they kill people's cattle and pets.
Re:The once-extinct aurochs may soon roam Europe again by iqanq on Sunday February 13, 2022 @06:27PM (#30326664)
Why the downvotes here? This is true. They are devastating. Obviously that doesn't matter to the urbanites whose livelihoods aren't put in danger.
Re:The once-extinct aurochs may soon roam Europe again by pvaldes on Sunday February 13, 2022 @07:46PM (#30327215)
In Spain there is like a 3% of cattle affected by canine (wolf+dog) attacks, and those loses are covered by the government. We talk about animals that are basically left alone in the nature without protection for weeks and months. In many cases we talk about foals or old and sick cattle and often in a reduced group of farmers that claim to lose 600 animals year after year, but don't even buy a dog, that is a little suspicious if we think about it.

So, maybe is not the bloodbath that many people assume

Re:The once-extinct aurochs may soon roam Europe again by ggm on Sunday February 13, 2022 @06:52PM (#30326866)
Sensible rewilding schemes include compensation. I am not trying to minimise how hard this is, but there's an economic solution. Also, wild dogs probably cause as much damage as wolves do.

Urbanites was a bit un-called for.

Re:The once-extinct aurochs may soon roam Europe again by whatshisface on Sunday February 13, 2022 @07:03PM (#30326953)
Urbanite is a descriptive word, not a epithet. It's called for whenever city-dwellers are being described.
Re:The once-extinct aurochs may soon roam Europe again by pvaldes on Sunday February 13, 2022 @07:35PM (#30327144)
Is always used as a deprecating term in this case. And insulting the same people that are taxed so the farmers can be heavily subsidized, is very unfair.
Re:The once-extinct aurochs may soon roam Europe again by PicassoCTs on Sunday February 13, 2022 @07:28PM (#30327112)
My brother got compensated, tractor sank into a beavers lodge, broke the axle, got 50 €. Was in the newspaper the day after that.

Now that the beaver has destroyed the road foundation several times and the public had to pay for it, over and over, the mood of the sub-urban dwellers is slowly shifting. Turns out wildlife is not so cute, if you have to pay out of pocket for it.

Re:The once-extinct aurochs may soon roam Europe again by ggm on Sunday February 13, 2022 @11:02PM (#30328233)
Rewilded European beavers are responsible for significant improvement in water retention in upland areas reducing flooding, soil loss, and damage to crops. It's not about "cute" its about the long term qui bono.

Maybe the road has to move. It's going to cost money to repair come what may, so maybe shifting it is the answer. I don't know, I just want to point out you're making huge assumptions about what the right answer IS, and also using "my specific therefore defines the general as wrong" arguments. Sure. Your brother had a bad beaver experience. European farmers who lost land to water runoff from bare hills are taking a different view.

Re:The once-extinct aurochs may soon roam Europe again by TedDoesntTalk on Sunday February 13, 2022 @08:25PM (#30327452)
It’s not about being cute. It’s about the biodiversity that reintroducing a lot of these predators creates. This is well-documented by the reintroduction of wolves in Yellowstone National Park in the USA which occurred in the 1990s.
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Re:The once-extinct aurochs may soon roam Europe again by dang on Sunday February 13, 2022 @09:44PM (#30327867)
Please don't post in the flamewar style to HN. The thread was noticeably degrading already, but your comment here was a big step in the wrong direction.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re:The once-extinct aurochs may soon roam Europe again by fleddr on Sunday February 13, 2022 @07:24PM (#30327088)
In the case of Northern Europe, in some countries the wolf was already extinct and is now making a sporadic return. Example: the Netherlands.

This is a country almost entirely urbanized with hardly any wild habitat for the wolf to hunt in. So they do a lot of hunting in people's backyard. Killing sheep and dogs. They hunt frequently so damage is large.

Even a single case is very impactful. I recently saw footage of 3 wolves tearing apart somebody's dog. To the owner, that is devastating. Next, this is spread on Facebook, and soon the town is outraged. Surely you understand this won't last very long, somebody is going to take care of that wolf if it happens a few more times.

I love wolves, I want them to come back and want them to thrive. But at least for the Netherlands, it just doesn't work. We don't have the natural habitat.

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Re:The once-extinct aurochs may soon roam Europe again by wwtrv on Monday February 14, 2022 @05:36AM (#30330433)
Wolves are very risk averse and generally only attack pets or livestock ( as long as they are not roaming alone in the mountains unprotected ) if they have no other choice (i.e. their natural habitat was destroyed). The last thing wolves want to do is to roam around the countryside looking for pets or cattle because that greatly increases their chance of encountering humans.

And in any case most attacks on pets and humans are by wolf-dog hybrid which are much more aggressive (and less fearful of humans) than wolves.

Re:The once-extinct aurochs may soon roam Europe again by pvaldes on Sunday February 13, 2022 @07:31PM (#30327126)
> Unnecessary if we allow wolves to be hunted.

So more people die in car crashes?. Good idea

Re:The once-extinct aurochs may soon roam Europe again by nradov on Sunday February 13, 2022 @07:11PM (#30327002)
In my neighborhood people keep complaining about coyotes killing their outdoor cats. The solution is simple: keep your cats indoors.
Re:The once-extinct aurochs may soon roam Europe again by UnpossibleJim on Sunday February 13, 2022 @08:27PM (#30327472)
I don't see the coyote quote you're referring to, but coyotes are pretty adept at urban life. They even make it into NYC, weirdly. They like the rat and cat populations there and have been seen in Central Park with somewhat regularity. There's no need to fret about the population of coyotes.

Fun fact, trying to cull coyotes can actually cause the population to boom. They're remarkably adaptable creatures and very smart, to boot.

https://www.projectcoyote.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/PC_...

Re:The once-extinct aurochs may soon roam Europe again by andrepd on Sunday February 13, 2022 @06:44PM (#30326788)
> The country with the most extensive historical records is France, where nearly 7,600 fatal attacks were documented from 1200 to 1920.[1][2] There are few historical records or modern cases of wolf attacks in North America. In the half-century up to 2002, there were eight fatal attacks in Europe and Russia, three in North America, and more than 200 in south Asia.[3]

Wolf attacks are a nearly irrelevant problem. Older generations are irrationally/disproportionately afraid of wolf attacks.

Re:The once-extinct aurochs may soon roam Europe again by adrian_b on Monday February 14, 2022 @06:39AM (#30330847)
Even in the presence of so-called historical records of wolf attacks, it can be very difficult to assess how many of them are true.

There are indeed many known cases when rabid wolves have attacked humans, but obviously there are far less such cases than the attacks due to rabid dogs or even rabid foxes, because there are much more dogs than wolves.

In the past, there have also been many cases when humans have died due to other causes, mainly due to cold, then wolves have eaten the dead bodies and when they were found the death has been wrongly attributed to wolves.

I have grown in an Eastern European country, with much more wolves than in any Western European country.

Nevertheless, at least during the last century, there has been known absolutely no case of a human attacked by wolves, with the exception of attacks due to solitary rabid wolves, which could be fatal when not treated immediately.

Of course there were a very large number of cases of sheep or other domestic animals which were eaten by wolves.

On the other hand, bears or wild boars will not hesitate to attack humans in certain circumstances, so they belong to a completely different group of animals from this point of view.

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Re:The once-extinct aurochs may soon roam Europe again by dang on Sunday February 13, 2022 @09:49PM (#30327897)
I'm sure you have good reason to feel strongly about this, but attacking another user is not allowed here, and we ban accounts that do it, so please don't post like this again. Also, please just don't post in the flamewar style to begin with. We want curious conversation here—not commenters at one another's throats.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re:The once-extinct aurochs may soon roam Europe again by pvaldes on Sunday February 13, 2022 @07:14PM (#30327031)
> imagine you love animals so much you decide to dedicate your life to breeding sheeps ... Every morning you wake up to the mutilated corpses of your little sheeps.

Nice melodrama.

I will say it again knowing that people don't want the truth and is not ready for the truth:

https://revistajaraysedal.es/wp-content/uploads/tres-perros-...

Most of this attacks are by dogs, not by wolves

By feral or by domestic dogs. The only responsible of this attacks is the shepherd, that don't feed their dogs and allow them to roam free to attack the cattle of other people. This common offenders include the Patou also. And we all pay for their loses.

Re:The once-extinct aurochs may soon roam Europe again by User23 on Sunday February 13, 2022 @07:41PM (#30327186)
It’s unsurprising that dog attacks outnumber wolf attacks after wolves have been exterminated. That doesn’t really tell us anything about the danger prevalent wolves would present.
Re:The once-extinct aurochs may soon roam Europe again by wwtrv on Monday February 14, 2022 @05:43AM (#30330484)
The wolf population in Italy is relatively large (compared to other similar countries) and quite spread geographically yet there hasn’t been a single recorded attack on people since at least WW2.

Edit: I was wrong, there has actually been one attack in January this year (the person was able to escape unharmed ), however the likelihood still seems to be extremely low.

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Re:The once-extinct aurochs may soon roam Europe again by dang on Sunday February 13, 2022 @09:50PM (#30327901)
Would you please stop posting in the flamewar style to HN? You've included a snarky swipe in several different comments you posted to this thread. Regardless of how you feel about wolves, that's not what this site is for, and it destroys what it is for.

If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the intended spirit of the site more to heart, we'd be grateful.

Re:The once-extinct aurochs may soon roam Europe again by User23 on Sunday February 13, 2022 @08:30PM (#30327481)
The Iberian wolf has been extirpated from most of Spain. Of course it’s not responsible for many attacks anymore. You may not be stupid, but this is a question of history, not biology. The present rate of attacks by the survivors of a nearly exterminated population tells us absolutely nothing about the historical rate of attacks that motivated the depopulation. Likewise it tells us nothing about what the rate of attacks would be if wolves were permitted to breed without interference.

As for your second point, of course when government pays for something it gets more of it.

Re:The once-extinct aurochs may soon roam Europe again by pvaldes on Sunday February 13, 2022 @07:12PM (#30327011)
People killed by wolves aka dogs: maybe thousands if we include dog attacks

People saved by wolves aka dogs: countless.

Re:The once-extinct aurochs may soon roam Europe again by PicassoCTs on Sunday February 13, 2022 @07:33PM (#30327138)
The older generation was also "irrationally" afraid of pandemics. Turns out- they were right. wulvs are no threat in the summer when they can easy migrate onwards into deer rich territory.

Story changes, when all the easily hunted deer is gone and a harsh winter comes. Once the hunt success without retaliation is there - it all goes south fast.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wolf_attacks

Re:The once-extinct aurochs may soon roam Europe again by detaro on Sunday February 13, 2022 @06:26PM (#30326650)
That's a ... very simplified view on that topic.
Re:The once-extinct aurochs may soon roam Europe again by pvaldes on Sunday February 13, 2022 @07:03PM (#30326955)
Yeah, having biodiversity is a mess; there is water and food. And not having any is a Mars.
Re:The once-extinct aurochs may soon roam Europe again by mhitza on Sunday February 13, 2022 @07:49PM (#30327237)
From the article it seems to have been extinct for around 400 years, and used in Roman arenas for their agresivity.

Want to bring it back and keep it in an animal sanctuary? Sure.

Free roaming herds in Europe? No thanks.

Re:The once-extinct aurochs may soon roam Europe again by mytailorisrich on Monday February 14, 2022 @03:58AM (#30329825)
In at least some countries in Europe where wolves or bears have been reintroduced there are compensation schemes for loss of cattle. This can actually lead to fraud: one of your sheep died in the mountain? Another victim of a wolf...
Re:The once-extinct aurochs may soon roam Europe again by homonculus1 on Sunday February 13, 2022 @09:03PM (#30327649)
Just gotta remember the three S's