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Re:Can a $310M startup avoid due diligence? by erulabs on Monday February 07, 2022 @01:16PM (#30248763)
Amazingly, my startup (KubeSail.com YCS19) has similar revenue, has raised 500x less, and we've been told point blank that "nobody wants to invest in a hardware company", or "yes, but what's the path to 100B".

Hey maybe we don't have any path to 100B (is 1B just for chumps?), and maybe our margins aren't B2E-style 99%, but I'd much rather be making something people want rather than...

And then I hear my wifes voice in my head: "You can't pay yourself that little forever...". Maybe I'm the fool.

Strange world.

Re:Can a $310M startup avoid due diligence? by thr0wawayf00 on Monday February 07, 2022 @01:57PM (#30249334)
I might get downvoted for saying this, but rich people aren't necessarily smarter than anyone else. They're just richer.

Undoubtedly, there are many successful founders with talent and brains that were able to exit successfully, and to those people, kudos. But a tremendous amount of immense family wealth is controlled by people that are in no way, shape or form smarter or more talented than the average person. Their wealth just demands an unhealthy amount of control and influence in whatever it is they're investing, regardless of how knowledgeable they are.

I saw it in multi-family real estate about 5 years ago. A multi-family property company I was associated with was making an absolute killing (and still are) when all of a sudden, leadership wanted to start investing in AI because their investors demanded them to.

They signed a massive deal with a custom software shop to build them an AI tool to decide which properties to buy, and the entire project was an absolute joke. It wasn't AI of any kind, it was just a dashboard that pulled data from various real estate APIs for things like walkability score, etc. But they showed their investors and called it "AI", who absolutely loved it, not knowing at all what actually was, partially because these execs were old school real estate guys that didn't understand themselves what the tool really was either. They raised millions more for their next fund, and the whole time I'm wondering how what this company was doing wasn't fraudulent.

In the end, it didn't even matter, the next fund performed incredibly well and at the following Christmas party, one of the employees involved in the project received a $50k Escalade as a gift to reflect the success of the "AI" project.

I will never again assume that just because someone has a ton of money knows anything about they're talking about.

Re:Can a $310M startup avoid due diligence? by MegaButts on Monday February 07, 2022 @02:03PM (#30249413)
> I might get downvoted for saying this, but rich people aren't necessarily smarter than anyone else. They're just richer.

You'd have to be an idiot to think otherwise.

Re:Can a $310M startup avoid due diligence? by thr0wawayf00 on Monday February 07, 2022 @02:14PM (#30249582)
I look at how the ultra-wealthy are lionized in the US and genuinely wonder sometimes. It's amazing what we'll let those people get away with because we too want to join the exclusive club of high net worth individuals.
Re:Can a $310M startup avoid due diligence? by pyuser583 on Monday February 07, 2022 @09:35PM (#30254311)
I mean here we are on a message board that is the vanity project of an investment firm catering to highly skilled technicians.
Re:Can a $310M startup avoid due diligence? by worik on Monday February 07, 2022 @02:25PM (#30249712)
> I look at how the ultra-wealthy are lionized in the US and...

I look at the ultra-wealthy make a diagnosis of obsessive compulsive disorder

Re:Can a $310M startup avoid due diligence? by brimble on Monday February 07, 2022 @03:03PM (#30250212)
I sometimes wonder how much the fact that I'd stop trying to make more money at like $25m savings—and maybe sooner—is a factor in my not having that much money in the first place. Like I'm not saying that's all or even most of the reason, but I do wonder if the running-up-the-score attitude is itself valuable for making any decent amount of money in the first place.
Re:Can a $310M startup avoid due diligence? by qnsi on Monday February 07, 2022 @03:39PM (#30250734)
what do u need 25mil for? Seems arbitrary. With 7.5m u can have 300k/y income from stock invested without lowering your net worth. Seems more than enough for anyone
Re:Can a $310M startup avoid due diligence? by brimble on Monday February 07, 2022 @04:00PM (#30251058)
Yeah that's why I threw in "maybe sooner". $25m is a bit arbitrary but is also somewhere around the point at which I'd have to start trying to waste money before I'd risk touching principal. That's "never think about money again, even a little" territory, for me (but then I don't want a yacht or any of that), so at the top end of the range in which I could see myself deciding never to work again.

Also, $7.5m is still low enough to be threatened by healthcare costs and end-of-life care and such (x2 for a couple, plus if a kid gets very sick before they're out, or even after but you don't want them to be ruined by it, et c). Not enough to wipe it out, probably, but enough to diminish it substantially if you get a bad roll of the dice. I wouldn't even need that much to stop having any motivation to try to make more, if I lived somewhere with decent universal healthcare where having your savings eaten by the healthcare/hospice-care industry is practically unheard of.

Re:Can a $310M startup avoid due diligence? by missedthecue on Monday February 07, 2022 @03:32PM (#30250629)
Interestingly, when I look at the top 5 richest people on the planet, I don't think any are optimizing for wealth.
Re:Can a $310M startup avoid due diligence? by forbiddenvoid on Monday February 07, 2022 @04:32PM (#30251528)
They are not optimizing for wealth... anymore. It's easy to shift your priorities once you are overwhelmed with a resource you could not possibly use all of.
Re:Can a $310M startup avoid due diligence? by missedthecue on Monday February 07, 2022 @05:06PM (#30252009)
I think I would describe Jeff Bezos and Elon Musk etc... as optimizing for making their companies succeed in the end, not optimizing for wealth.
Re:Can a $310M startup avoid due diligence? by missedthecue on Monday February 07, 2022 @03:33PM (#30250655)
If you did intelligence tests on 1000 American centi-millionaires and 1000 randomly selected Americans, do you think the difference in scores would be undetectable?
Re:Can a $310M startup avoid due diligence? by thr0wawayf00 on Monday February 07, 2022 @04:48PM (#30251781)
Yes, because a tremendous amount of wealth is inherited. The idea that the vast majority of wealthy Americans are self-made is a myth.
Re:Can a $310M startup avoid due diligence? by missedthecue on Monday February 07, 2022 @05:04PM (#30251991)
80% of US millionaires are first generation.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/style/longterm/books/c....

Re:Can a $310M startup avoid due diligence? by nsv on Monday February 07, 2022 @05:46PM (#30252487)
Big difference between millionaire and centi-millionaire or billionaire though. You can save a million dollars just by making the median American salary and making large contributions to your 401k over 40 years, due to the power of compound interest.
Re:Can a $310M startup avoid due diligence? by webmaven on Tuesday February 08, 2022 @02:52PM (#30263640)
> 80% of US millionaires are first generation.

Apples and oranges. Most of the wealth is not most of the wealthy people.

Re:Can a $310M startup avoid due diligence? by majani on Monday February 07, 2022 @05:30PM (#30252284)
Inheritance doesn't start and stop at money. There are other inherited traits that may influence the scores of the people in the study.
Re:Can a $310M startup avoid due diligence? by speleding on Tuesday February 08, 2022 @03:49AM (#30256189)
Intelligence is hereditary too, in large part, so that would lead to the opposite conclusion right?
Re:Can a $310M startup avoid due diligence? by floodyberry- on Monday February 07, 2022 @03:13PM (#30250327)
You're literally on the "rich people are better than" site
Re:Can a $310M startup avoid due diligence? by gumby on Monday February 07, 2022 @02:24PM (#30249700)
The majority of people world wide are, by that definition, idiots.
Re:Can a $310M startup avoid due diligence? by irthomasthomas on Monday February 07, 2022 @03:29PM (#30250600)
Juicero

Theranos

ZERA food recycler

Nikola electric truck

What are your favourites?

Re:Can a $310M startup avoid due diligence? by danjac on Monday February 07, 2022 @03:53PM (#30250955)
Re: Theranos - to give Henry Kissinger and the other very old rich guys the benefit of the doubt, perhaps Elizabeth Holmes is just a Bene Gesserit using the Voice to get them to hand over their money?
Re:Can a $310M startup avoid due diligence? by elkos on Tuesday February 08, 2022 @12:00AM (#30255057)
Honestly I can't even fathom trusting my hard earned money to a person that doesn't blink.
Re:Can a $310M startup avoid due diligence? by femto on Monday February 07, 2022 @05:09PM (#30252052)
I once worked with someone who went from "not rich" to "rich", who also ending up in a senior position at Cisco where he had the authority to spend lots of money.

His observation was that a "normal" person has to work hard to find ways to make money. A person with lots of money to spend has people queuing at their door, offering ways to make even more money. It becomes a case of picking the best opportunities from the menu.

Re:Can a $310M startup avoid due diligence? by hutzlibu on Monday February 07, 2022 @02:31PM (#30249784)
"I will never again assume that just because someone has a ton of money knows anything about they're talking about."

Well, apparently they did know, how to increase their avaiable money. And this is what matters to most people, not solving real problems. The problem seems, that those 2 things are not really aligned often.

Re:Can a $310M startup avoid due diligence? by thr0wawayf00 on Monday February 07, 2022 @02:43PM (#30249927)
The thing is that it's so much easier to make money when you have it. It's not even necessarily that rich people just know innately how to make money, it's more like they just have access to many more people who do know how to invest.

Any schmo can open a Wealthfront account with no minimum balance that returns somewhere in the realm of retail investment returns, but only people with obscene amounts of money can go invest in the real estate firms like the one I referenced, which return many times more to the investors than anything in retail would. That firm was returning many multiples above anything you could invest in on the retail side. So having a million dollars to put into these kinds of firms winds up making so much more percentage-wise than the tens of thousands that I can put into my retirement account. It's a self-perpetuating system that allows the wealthy to continue out-earning everyone else. That's how wealth inequality works in a nutshell.

I could give you the name of the firm so you too would know how to make that kind of money. Only, you wouldn't be able to without being able to make the minimum required investment. It's not that they have some secret knowledge about making money, it's that they can buy access to the high-return investment firms that you and I just can't.

Re:Can a $310M startup avoid due diligence? by ModernMech on Monday February 07, 2022 @03:13PM (#30250329)
> The thing is that it's so much easier to make money when you have it.

So true. My rich uncle once told me "The hardest million I made was my first million". Then you look at how the banking system works: the more money you have in the bank, the more money the bank pays you. But if you don't have enough money in the bank, then the bank charges you. So it's actually more expensive to be poor than it is to be rich, and the richer you are, the faster you become richer.

It's as if you're first place in Mario Kart, and all you get are stars, while the last place car keeps getting banana peels that they then slip on. Not a very fun game, but that's life.

Re:Can a $310M startup avoid due diligence? by hutzlibu on Monday February 07, 2022 @03:50PM (#30250907)
"But if you don't have enough money in the bank, then the bank charges you. So it's actually more expensive to be poor than it is to be rich, and the richer you are, the faster you become richer."

Not only banking, everything is more expensive, when you are poor.

Miss a payment, because the money was gone before the end of month? You still have to pay it fully, plus fees.

Can only afford a old car? Pay more with repairs and tax.

You need money but have low bank reputation? Pay way higher interest rate - if you are lucky to even get the loan.

You get screwed over, but cannot afford a lawyer? Bad luck.

Etc. etc.

Re:Can a $310M startup avoid due diligence? by doctor_eval on Monday February 07, 2022 @02:08PM (#30249488)
I am unable to talk about specifics - but I can 100% endorse this comment. Would add management consultants to the list as well.
Re:Can a $310M startup avoid due diligence? by Cyril_HN on Monday February 07, 2022 @04:28PM (#30251462)
> I might get downvoted for saying this, but rich people aren't necessarily smarter than anyone else. They're just richer.

... ish?

Generally speaking, rich people may not be smarter than anyone else but they probably aren't dumber. In other words, they are likely to be making fewer mistakes and taking more favourable risks, even if they aren't particularly any more likely to spot an extraordinary opportunity.

Re:Can a $310M startup avoid due diligence? by thr0wawayf00 on Monday February 07, 2022 @04:47PM (#30251758)
> Generally speaking, rich people may not be smarter than anyone else but they probably aren't dumber.

You're kind of proving my point here though by making the argument that rich people probably just make better decisions than the working class. It's not really about making better decisions as it is about having access to better financial opportunities that others don't have. As I stated elsewhere, the real estate firm I described offered massive returns that you could not dream of getting in retail investment situation, but it required a minimum $1M investment, which obviously excludes most people.

I could give you the name of the firm so you too could know how to make that crazy money, but if you don't have the million, you're SOL. It has nothing to do with how smart you are, it has everything to do with how much money you have.

Re:Can a $310M startup avoid due diligence? by pyuser583 on Monday February 07, 2022 @09:34PM (#30254296)
That’s hilarious … I worked for a company (several, really) that bragged about being AI but where really just conventional business logic.

The products worked great so nobody cared. Nor should they.

To be clear, the companies started as AI. They just pivoted until they found a market and product that matched.

Re:Can a $310M startup avoid due diligence? by dkarl on Monday February 07, 2022 @08:15PM (#30253814)
> It wasn't AI of any kind, it was just a dashboard that pulled data from various real estate APIs for things like walkability score, etc. But they showed their investors and called it "AI"

Isn't that the smartest possible way to deal with investors who demand AI?

Re:Can a $310M startup avoid due diligence? by pmorici on Monday February 07, 2022 @03:37PM (#30250691)
Does it matter what it was if it helped them pick good real estate investments?
Re:Can a $310M startup avoid due diligence? by varispeed on Monday February 07, 2022 @03:40PM (#30250754)
If it becomes a bad choice you can blame the AI not yourself. That's the whole point.
Re:Can a $310M startup avoid due diligence? by rossmohax on Monday February 07, 2022 @02:19PM (#30249637)
I went on your page, and it looks like I am your target audience - relatively tech savvy, want to ungoogle myself, ready to pay for convenience of doing so, yet I got confused quickly.

1. What do you sell? Hardware or some kind of management software? Looks like latter, then why there is image of PiBox all over the page?

2. What is cluster? Is it a single PiBox/another Linux or something more? Word "cluster" implies to me there are many somethings grouped, what are these somethings?

3. Price plans mention proxied traffic. What it is and how does it fit into big picture?

4. I signed up, clicked add cluster -> "Bring YourOwn" and nothing changes, it still offers me to buy PiBox with shipping date in July(!! I know it's not your fault, but damn). How do I add my own "cluster" (whatever it is)?

5. Once logged in, I can't get to the homepage anymore, it is all dashboard now.

Re:Can a $310M startup avoid due diligence? by erulabs on Monday February 07, 2022 @02:59PM (#30250168)
Hi! Thanks for your feedback!

1. We sell both hardware and software, although our software works with almost any computer that runs Linux - it doesn't require our hardware and can run on anything that can run Kubernetes. Obviously, this is somewhat "the deep end" for many users, so our PiBox comes plug-n-play ready.

2. Cluster is a Kubernetes term, which we really should stop using, although we have a core value of educating instead of shielding our users - so we've tried to keep the "upstream" terminology as much as we can. It simply means "one or more Linux servers". Most of our customers simply run one machine as their "cluster", but a small handful have dozens of machines in the same group.

3. We're trying to bundle everything that's needed to host apps and websites at home. For most users, home internet connections aren't very good for this - the IP address changes often, and sometimes ISPs do not even allow port 80 or 443 to be exposed to the internet - we solve this by proxying traffic directly to your cluster, bypassing firewalls and avoiding the need for port-forwarding, router configuration, etc. This means you can plug in a PiBox, install, say, PhotoStructure, and access `photos.home.erulabs.k8g8.com` (for example), without needing to know anything at all about networking or firewalls or DNS. We also offer backups, as another example of trying to make home-hosting "complete".

4. Ack! I broke this last night! Thank you for pointing that out, fixed now!

5. You can click "home" in the footer, but yes, some polish there would be nice... One day we'll hire a proper designer ;)

Thank you for the feedback, very much appreciated.

Re:Can a $310M startup avoid due diligence? by PKop on Monday February 07, 2022 @07:29PM (#30253512)
>"We're trying to bundle everything that's needed to host apps and websites at home."

This should be written somewhere on your website. A good simple use-case description like this cuts through some of the jargon to quickly explain what is is you're actually helping a user to do apart from describing features and technical ways you enable them to do actually do that thing.

edit: so this is on the site, but I had to scroll down further. I'd highly suggest moving the "What would you say you do here" at least to the top of the black box it is in, if not the top of the page.

It is much more informative, while the other paragraphs are more confusing to read first, I left the page without scrolling down further.

Re:Can a $310M startup avoid due diligence? by zild3d on Monday February 07, 2022 @06:12PM (#30252818)
> Once logged in, I can't get to the homepage anymore, it is all dashboard now.

a lot of sites do this, see github.com (I'm not a fan of the pattern)

Re:Can a $310M startup avoid due diligence? by tomxor on Monday February 07, 2022 @02:21PM (#30249667)
Here's a massively oversimplified and harsh view, but maybe useful to contrast different ends of the spectrum:

1. Get VC style investment, become unicorn, pay yourself 500-1000k a year immediately, ride the roller-coaster. Ending = derail ? feel burned, but have some dosh to show for it, possibly swallowing feelings of contempt towards investors due to overriding decision that forced you to watch your baby burn : Homerun, now watch everything you worked for be monetised into a souleless husk of it's innocent beginnings, you can't help but feel you sold out, quit once you had enough, dosh to show for it.

2. No investors, go the hard way, grow slow. If you make the right decisions, you will be able to afford to gradually increase your salary to something modest, and eventually perhaps even "good", you maintain full control of your product and peace of mind of ownership and decision making. OR, you keep making the wrong decisions, you burn through all your money, possibly burn through your enthusiasm too if you don't know when to quit.

#1 can be risky for the soul 2# can be risky for the pocket

If you aren't very materialistic and don't want expensive toys, #2 can be quite attractive because of the sanity you are able to create for your everyday worklife... the other thing is that just because it isn't a 100B business idea, doesn't mean it isn't a good business idea, it might just have a different scale, maybe it can't pay 10k workers and a pile of investors, but it could pay pay 10 or 100 people with the same salary, minus all the corporate BS... it just takes longer to get there. VCs want relatively quick money, but that is only applicable to certain ideas that can reach a certain scale, even then it comes at a non monetary cost that can be hard to stomach.

Re:Can a $310M startup avoid due diligence? by bachmeier on Monday February 07, 2022 @02:07PM (#30249465)
Apologies in advance for providing unsolicited feedback...

When I go to a landing page, I expect to be given a reason to give the company my money. (And in fact I'm hoping to be convinced of that, because it means my life is better.) I visited your landing page and do not know what problem you are claiming to solve. It looks like a competitor for Digital Ocean, but DO is easier to use and just as cheap. IMO your landing page should make me say "I want to give them my money so I don't have to think about [problem] again."

Re:Can a $310M startup avoid due diligence? by erulabs on Monday February 07, 2022 @02:14PM (#30249583)
No need to apologize, I appreciate the feedback! I tweak our little initial landing page pitch lines all the time, and I feel like the current state is pretty bad. I'll see if I can't improve it :)
Re:Can a $310M startup avoid due diligence? by bhelkey on Monday February 07, 2022 @03:54PM (#30250967)
I went to your homepage. So I can pay for a server to run backups and apps? The problem is that I have heard of exactly 0 of the apps you highlighted.

Excluding backups, essentially the pitch is, 'Pay us money to run a server to serve apps you have never heard of.' Are Element, Jellyfin, NextCloud things you expect your target customers to know about?

My perception is that Plex is moderately well known, I suggest you highlight that.

Disclaimer: I work for Google, all opinions are my own.

Re:Can a $310M startup avoid due diligence? by bhelkey on Monday February 07, 2022 @03:55PM (#30250978)
> KubeSail Platform allows you to provision software when your customers signup and pay. Spin up cloud resources on-demand, or physically ship your customers a plug-n-play device.

I may have misunderstood, this appears to be B2B?

Edit: I went on the blog. My current understanding is:

"KubeSail" is the physical box (some sort of pi with a sata adapter).

"KubeSail Templates" is some standardized wrapper around opensource cloud software.

"KubeSail Platform" is some sort of B2B deployment platform for the open source wrappers.

Re:Can a $310M startup avoid due diligence? by lmilcin on Monday February 07, 2022 @01:29PM (#30248952)
It is.

Everybody just focuses on two possible outcomes that are easy to define -- what is the probability it goes bust and what is probability it is going to add a letter to FAANG.

I think the answer is laziness. If you invest money you shouldn't care much about the size of the company you are investing. From a purely financial point of view should be looking at return on your investment where return is defined as an integral over all possible future payouts adjusted for their probability and adjusted for your risk tolerance.

Re:Can a $310M startup avoid due diligence? by gitfan86 on Monday February 07, 2022 @01:55PM (#30249292)
>I think the answer is laziness.

If an investor wasn't lazy they wouldn't be an investor and have a real full time job, OR they would be Jason Calacanis.

I'm not saying that they are bad people, I totally understand the appeal of getting a cushy, but potentially profitable job.

Re:Can a $310M startup avoid due diligence? by obventio56 on Monday February 07, 2022 @01:55PM (#30249301)
The VC model has to consider the expectation that most investments will be a complete loss. To have even a hope of ~20% return every investment has to have a path to $xxxB. Otherwise it’s not worth including.
Re:Can a $310M startup avoid due diligence? by bpodgursky on Monday February 07, 2022 @02:01PM (#30249385)
Yes, this is a huge misunderstanding of where the returns from VC come from. It does not come from "moderate success". That's hopeless, given the fail rate.

If you have a safe path to 20% or even 100% returns, just get a loan. There's absolutely not point in the VC process at that level... or reason for them to exist.

Re:Can a $310M startup avoid due diligence? by brendonjohn on Monday February 07, 2022 @05:33PM (#30252338)
There's clearly been a lot of thought put into KubeSail, the platform & pibox provisioning service looks interesting.

Have you had businesses try to make this part of an internal provisioning process?

It looks like you're aiming for hobbyists, but I'd take a guess you could be integrating with businesses at a premium.

Re:Can a $310M startup avoid due diligence? by erulabs on Monday February 07, 2022 @06:49PM (#30253196)
We’re working on that, absolutely. The idea behind the KubeSail Platform is that businesses (or open source developers) can sell a fully loaded, pre-configured “box” that runs their software directly to their customers.

PhotoStructure is one of our favorite YC friends - and for example - a “buy a photostructure box!” Button on their site will hopefully be a great source of revenue for both KubeSail and PhotoStructure.

We’d love to sign some large enterprises (and we’re working on that too) but we’re extremely keen on making open source / self-hostable software financially viable for its authors (and easier to use for its users!)

Re:Can a $310M startup avoid due diligence? by mceachen on Tuesday February 08, 2022 @01:23PM (#30262282)
Author of PhotoStructure here: I'm really looking forward to adding that button to the site!

I'm hoping that KubeSail can help my less-technical users self-host the stuff they care about. It's certainly a tall order, but it seems like the pieces are coming together...

Re:Can a $310M startup avoid due diligence? by Zhenya on Monday February 07, 2022 @01:26PM (#30248908)
Tried to check out your site, ‘clicked start for free’ on the homepage but got:

“Bad request”

Can I learn more?

Re:Can a $310M startup avoid due diligence? by erulabs on Monday February 07, 2022 @01:37PM (#30249046)
Heh, maybe _thats_ why we don't have a 300M valuation! I shouldn't comment on HN while deploys go out. Fix going out currently, thank you!
Re:Can a $310M startup avoid due diligence? by catlifeonmars on Monday February 07, 2022 @02:19PM (#30249647)
Or maybe commenting on HN is a good way to get free user acceptance testing. Comment on every deployment!
Re:Can a $310M startup avoid due diligence? by colechristensen on Monday February 07, 2022 @04:09PM (#30251194)
Oh that's neat, I had almost exactly that startup idea years ago, but it never got any further than describing it to some friends over a beer. Looks like you created something pretty cool!
Re:Can a $310M startup avoid due diligence? by dougSF70 on Monday February 07, 2022 @02:19PM (#30249633)
I have a similar feeling. I must be the fool for not raising capital while money is so cheap, especially when I see firms raising 7 figures with no revenue nor even a product.
Re:Can a $310M startup avoid due diligence? by agentdrtran on Monday February 07, 2022 @01:43PM (#30249125)
How does this differ from competitors outside of backups being included?