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Re:Delta CEO wants U.S. to put unruly passengers on 'no-fly'... by trentnix on Saturday February 05, 2022 @08:12AM (#30220669)
Seems pretty awful to suggest that the government-managed 'no-fly' list should be used for anything after watching how poorly it was used and abused as a security measure. But considering the airlines look to the government to solve their financial problems, it's no surprise they would look to the government to solve their passenger problems as well. I assume begging for government intervention has become an airline CEO reflex, at this point.

Bureaucracy, security theater, and airline/airport ineptitude has turned flying into a painful, regrettable process. Add shrinking seat space and airport and airplane booze to the mix and you've got a recipe for stress, discomfort, and short tempers.

I suspect booze is actually the primary culprit. I've flown a few hundred flights in my time and only witnessed two, rather tame, incidents that caused people to be kicked off flights or caused in-air arguments. In one case the culprit was very drunk. The other case the culprit was very hung over.

Re:Delta CEO wants U.S. to put unruly passengers on 'no-fly'... by codecutter on Saturday February 05, 2022 @09:48AM (#30221563)
Instead of asking government to have no-fly list, what doesn't each airline have its own list? They are private businesses and should be able to decide their customers, just like customers can refuse to do business with certain companies.
Re:Delta CEO wants U.S. to put unruly passengers on 'no-fly'... by _0ffh on Saturday February 05, 2022 @09:57AM (#30221668)
Just what I thought! When someone's a sufficiently bloody nuisance, ban them from the airline for some time. What is it with people who think everything must be done by gov't?
Re:Delta CEO wants U.S. to put unruly passengers on 'no-fly'... by dkubb on Saturday February 05, 2022 @11:45AM (#30222892)
Also, why don't they share the lists with each other? They don't need government help to do this.

If there are privacy issues then they could just share a list of hashes and if someone's legal name hashes to something on the list then you deny them.

Re:Delta CEO wants U.S. to put unruly passengers on 'no-fly'... by rafale on Saturday February 05, 2022 @11:54AM (#30222995)
In pure HN comment degeneracy: they could then claim to be victim of a hash collision and you won't be able to prove it while maintaining privacy.

Also a hash doesn't provide privacy in itself. It just make enumerating people in the database more difficult.

Re:Delta CEO wants U.S. to put unruly passengers on 'no-fly'... by jacobr1 on Saturday February 05, 2022 @10:52AM (#30222242)
They already do have their own lists. The request has more to do with getting legal cover.
Re:Delta CEO wants U.S. to put unruly passengers on 'no-fly'... by Handytinge on Sunday February 06, 2022 @09:47PM (#30239660)
What legal cover do they require? They're private companies, surely they can refuse service?
Re:Delta CEO wants U.S. to put unruly passengers on 'no-fly'... by spurgu on Sunday February 06, 2022 @10:32AM (#30233363)
Here's my take on it:

1. People getting rowdy on planes recently is probably due to masking requirements

2. Airplanes have very efficient ventilation

3. Omicron is harmless to most people

4. Most people are vaccinated and protected against serious disease (Delta being the threat here, which has almost disappeared completely)

Simply remove the mask mandates and the problem will go away by itself (or at least return to normal).

Re:Delta CEO wants U.S. to put unruly passengers on 'no-fly'... by tremon on Sunday February 06, 2022 @01:15PM (#30235226)
People getting rowdy on planes is probably due to the onerous pre-flight experience. I haven't heard about people getting rowdy on trains, but they have the same masking requirements.
Re:Delta CEO wants U.S. to put unruly passengers on 'no-fly'... by packetlost on Monday February 07, 2022 @09:51AM (#30245595)
I mean, pre-covid sure. But there's been a number of cases of customers getting kicked for refusing to comply with the mandate. I would be surprised to hear most of the recent cases of people getting kicked off were not because of masks.
Re:Delta CEO wants U.S. to put unruly passengers on 'no-fly'... by spurgu on Sunday February 06, 2022 @01:20PM (#30235283)
Yeah that's a good point.
Re:Delta CEO wants U.S. to put unruly passengers on 'no-fly'... by JumpCrisscross on Saturday February 05, 2022 @09:55AM (#30221639)
> what doesn't each airline have its own list?

They do.

Re:Delta CEO wants U.S. to put unruly passengers on 'no-fly'... by diedyesterday on Sunday February 06, 2022 @02:16AM (#30230216)
They want to push the PR cost of that to the government and make it uncontroversial for themselves.
Re:Delta CEO wants U.S. to put unruly passengers on 'no-fly'... by aasjdfiaspud on Saturday February 05, 2022 @08:39AM (#30220859)
Isn't advocating for this just the same as setting up US's own social score?
Re:Delta CEO wants U.S. to put unruly passengers on 'no-fly'... by Schroedingersat on Saturday February 05, 2022 @09:27AM (#30221292)
They already have one, it's called a credit score
Re:Delta CEO wants U.S. to put unruly passengers on 'no-fly'... by menzoic on Saturday February 05, 2022 @09:47AM (#30221555)
Social score is based on the score of your friends and family no matter what your own individual efforts are. Thats what makes it dangerous because it adds strong social pressure to isolate from and report others. The credit score system has no such feature.
Re:Delta CEO wants U.S. to put unruly passengers on 'no-fly'... by belorn on Saturday February 05, 2022 @10:08AM (#30221777)
Can we really make the claim that a social score is safe as long as it exclude family and friends?

What makes social score dangerous is the power imbalance when a position of authority is attempting to dictate social behavior by punishing deviation and dissent outside of democratic laws. A society that don't allow any deviation or dissent is an authoritarian society.

A credit score system has nothing to do with social behavior unless they get combined. The dangers of a credit score system occurs when social behavior becomes proxies for creditworthiness, in which case the credit score system also becomes a social score system that hands out punishment based on deviation and dissent.

Re:Delta CEO wants U.S. to put unruly passengers on 'no-fly'... by gruez on Saturday February 05, 2022 @09:59AM (#30221685)
Do you want to list out the reasons why china's social credit score is bad, and whether they're present in the american credit score system? As far as I can tell the similarities are "score to incentivize behavior", but that's about it. China's system allegedly dings you points for "spreading misinformation", FICO doesn't.
Re:Delta CEO wants U.S. to put unruly passengers on 'no-fly'... by sgjohnson on Saturday February 05, 2022 @09:33AM (#30221367)
Pretty delusional to compare credit score with the Chinese social credit score.
Re:Delta CEO wants U.S. to put unruly passengers on 'no-fly'... by OldManAndTheCpp on Saturday February 05, 2022 @10:48AM (#30222202)
Looking at https://socialcredit.triviumchina.com/wp-content/uploads/201... , pg 11 with a table of information collected on individuals.

These categories are collected by a US credit score:

* BASIC IDENTITY INFORMATION

* FINANCIAL INFORMATION

These categories are collected by a US background check:

* EMPLOYMENT INFORMATION

* LEGAL HISTORY

* REGULATORY AND LEGAL VIOLATIONS

These categories are unique to the Social Credit Score system:

* POLITICAL DATA

* CIVIC BEHAVIOR

* OUTSTANDING ACHIEVEMENT RECORDS

So, about 2/3rds of the data is very similar to the data that employers gather about their employees, and 1/3rd is the overbearing Chinese state. To me, the political stuff seems to make the economic usefulness of the score weaker -- does being a member of the CPC really reduce your default risk on your credit card?

Looking at the list of infractions that reduce points, it seems that China is trying to systematize punishment for social problems by restricting access to credit. I went into this comment thinking that the US credit score system and the SCS system were similar, but I leave thinking that the Chinese one is the same as the US one, with a bolt on authoritarian layer.

Re:Delta CEO wants U.S. to put unruly passengers on 'no-fly'... by Schroedingersat on Saturday February 05, 2022 @06:09PM (#30227303)
Civic behavior, and political data are encapsulated in the US by criminal record (unequal enforcement of laws based on demographic and political alignment), 'basic identity information' (primarily location which is used as a proxy for demographic and socio economic status)

also all of those last categories are monotored by US employers and used to make hiring and firing decisions (which affect your credit score)

adding a single layer of indirection at each end doesn't fundamentally change anything

Re:Delta CEO wants U.S. to put unruly passengers on 'no-fly'... by trentnix on Saturday February 05, 2022 @09:20AM (#30221220)
Are you arguing with me? You must be argumentative. I'll bet you go to school board meetings. That makes you more likely to cause an incident on the plane. You must go on the list. Expect a visit from CPS to check on the welfare of your children. They may be in danger. /s
Re:Delta CEO wants U.S. to put unruly passengers on 'no-fly'... by shirly88 on Saturday February 05, 2022 @09:43AM (#30221498)
Government is humans chasing power. Why should I believe the airlines are anymore capable given that’s all they are.

It all turns into a cycle of manipulation to get ahead because that’s how our feudal trade memes work.

I don’t believe any of you are doing anything truly novel and useful; y’all are just playing the Rules of Acquisition.

Re:Delta CEO wants U.S. to put unruly passengers on 'no-fly'... by dijonman2 on Saturday February 05, 2022 @08:15AM (#30220685)
Cocktails is one of the few things that make long flights bearable. Please, allow me that one comfort in an otherwise horrible and miserable process.
Re:Delta CEO wants U.S. to put unruly passengers on 'no-fly'... by bsagdiyev on Saturday February 05, 2022 @08:20AM (#30220715)
Agreed, I have a pretty horrible panic attack that starts with the takeoff roll, eases a bit when we're in the air and will return with any turbulence. Alcohol helps this significantly.
Re:Delta CEO wants U.S. to put unruly passengers on 'no-fly'... by 300bps on Saturday February 05, 2022 @08:34AM (#30220822)
I’m glad that helps but just wanted to point out that there are ways of dealing with anxiety and panic attacks that don’t involve self-medicating.

Someone on HN many years ago recommended the book Learned Optimism saying that it changed their life. It did the same for me.

Re:Delta CEO wants U.S. to put unruly passengers on 'no-fly'... by bsagdiyev on Saturday February 05, 2022 @09:38AM (#30221433)
I have a therapist and currently am medicated through a psychiatrist, she recommended breathing but also said if having a beer or two helps that she's not going to tell me not to do it.

I can take a look and give that a read though.

Re:Delta CEO wants U.S. to put unruly passengers on 'no-fly'... by dzhiurgis on Saturday February 05, 2022 @09:21PM (#30228643)
Going to be pretty hard to stop people bringing their own flasks of vodka or whiskey.

I enjoy drinks too much on flights, would be better off without them.

Also it's kinda public space, occasionally with little kids - I'd prefer them not to be around alcohol.

Finally, having different areas of economy kinda solves this - half plane for young and ready to party, other half - for quiet and chill. Separate area for kids too. All of this is trivial to solve in booking software.

Re:Delta CEO wants U.S. to put unruly passengers on 'no-fly'... by dijonman2 on Saturday February 12, 2022 @09:14AM (#30312968)
> occasionally with little kids - I'd prefer them not to be around alcohol.

It took me a moment to avoid the typical criticism of “think of the children”.

This is the real world. People drink. People do drugs. People do a lot of things.

In my opinion putting blinders on your kid is bad parenting.

I really don’t care what kids see me do. Keep the drinks coming for me!

Re:Delta CEO wants U.S. to put unruly passengers on 'no-fly'... by op00to on Saturday February 05, 2022 @08:25AM (#30220749)
Drinking on a plane always seems like a great idea, but despite only having one or two I invariably feel worse after flights where I’ve drank than ones where I haven’t. Sometimes I wonder what it’s like to be one of those veteran, pickled business travelers that can pound the drinks.
Re:Delta CEO wants U.S. to put unruly passengers on 'no-fly'... by samatman on Saturday February 05, 2022 @09:09AM (#30221109)
My rule of thumb after flying is that I owe myself 500cc of water for each hour of flight time, and that's after drinking carry on water and the complementary (soft) drinks: flying itself is severely dehydrating, and hauling luggage around may be light exercise but I'll usually end up sweating at some point in it.

Having two drinks on the flight just means another 500cc of water, but yeah, skip rehydration after flying and you're going to have a bad time. Add booze, it will be a worse time.

Re:Delta CEO wants U.S. to put unruly passengers on 'no-fly'... by Aeolun on Saturday February 05, 2022 @09:07AM (#30221092)
I’ve found that it makes absolutely no difference. Even flying first class, no difference. Flying is just miserable regardless of how you do it.
Re:Delta CEO wants U.S. to put unruly passengers on 'no-fly'... by thebigjewbowski on Saturday February 05, 2022 @09:27AM (#30221295)
I love flying first class. The seats are just so much more comfortable. I can’t justify the extra $300-500+ per ticket for what is at most 5-6 hours though.

I’ve only done it once but we sat on the runway for over an hour and I didn’t care at all.

The other time I was on the runway for awhile I had to take a spirit or southwest flight and that was awful.

I’m always so uncomfortable and I’m not even a big person, 5’11” and 200lbs.

The only thing that has ever made a flight decent besides first class was taking etizolam and being knocked out the whole way through the flight.

Re:Delta CEO wants U.S. to put unruly passengers on 'no-fly'... by technothrasher on Saturday February 05, 2022 @08:34AM (#30220819)
Drinking on a flight makes me feel like crap. It only makes my miserable experience worse. If I drank a lot on or before a flight, I’d be so grumpy I’d probably get kicked off too. But this is obviously not everybody’s experience, as I hear people say a lot that it’s the only way they can bear a flight.
Re:Delta CEO wants U.S. to put unruly passengers on 'no-fly'... by ransom1538 on Saturday February 05, 2022 @08:24AM (#30220738)
It is the DRINKS BEFORE boarding that is the issue. The tacky bars slinging full bars and specials pushing you to load up before the flight - 10ft from the boarding gate. Having a cocktail ON the flight IMHO is "ok" - stewardesses will monitor and cut off. However, those tacky bars will let you have 6 hard drinks before board. You mix people with high flight anxiety, preboard boredom and pushy bars: a flight mess.
Re:Delta CEO wants U.S. to put unruly passengers on 'no-fly'... by sandworm101 on Saturday February 05, 2022 @08:37AM (#30220844)
And various prescription drugs. Between the stress of flying, especially the lack of sleep, the plentiful alcohol, the various drugs people take (ambien), and the entire security theater thing, I am suprised there isnt an arrest on every flight.
Re:Delta CEO wants U.S. to put unruly passengers on 'no-fly'... by porknubbins on Saturday February 05, 2022 @11:29AM (#30222693)
High flight anxiety or drinking too much are not excuses for being disruptive on a flight. I’d bet there is some underlying personality disorder. Ban the people and let the 99% who can consume without bothering anyone do so.
Re:Delta CEO wants U.S. to put unruly passengers on 'no-fly'... by ransom1538 on Saturday February 05, 2022 @10:59AM (#30222328)
lol. Downvotes. Fine keep feeding drinks to people preboard. Makes the flight fun.
Re:Delta CEO wants U.S. to put unruly passengers on 'no-fly'... by neither_color on Saturday February 05, 2022 @10:34AM (#30222052)
Booze is not served in economy class, only business/first passengers get booze on American flights.
Re:Delta CEO wants U.S. to put unruly passengers on 'no-fly'... by gpanders on Saturday February 05, 2022 @10:35AM (#30222066)
This is not true, I was on a flight in economy just yesterday where passengers were allowed to purchase alcohol.
Re:Delta CEO wants U.S. to put unruly passengers on 'no-fly'... by neither_color on Saturday February 05, 2022 @10:53AM (#30222246)
I stand corrected, many major airlines have stopped serving alcohol, but not all of them. I took 3 round trip American flights last year and that had been my observation: https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/american-airlines-no-alco...
Re:Delta CEO wants U.S. to put unruly passengers on 'no-fly'... by patch_cable on Saturday February 05, 2022 @10:38AM (#30222095)
Is that a new thing during the pandemic? Because booze in the economy section was definitely a thing before.
Re:Delta CEO wants U.S. to put unruly passengers on 'no-fly'... by bezospen15 on Saturday February 05, 2022 @09:32AM (#30221361)
A few hundred flights? Your carbon footprint is trash
Re:Delta CEO wants U.S. to put unruly passengers on 'no-fly'... by mlac on Saturday February 05, 2022 @09:35AM (#30221391)
10 round trips per year over five years? Or five round trips per year over 10 years?

If each had a connection, it would only be 5 trips per year (4 flights each trip) for five years.

Re:Delta CEO wants U.S. to put unruly passengers on 'no-fly'... by shirly88 on Saturday February 05, 2022 @09:47AM (#30221557)
And it’s the species obligation to insure that’s doable because a minority of meat bags were told “why not them?” all their lives