the app for my phone network just opens a webview where i pay for stuff. then i close the webview and the funds just show up in the app. do they also pay 30% to apple?
so i guess the other route is what most companies do: webapp…
The things that Apple takes a cut for is actually pretty small in the grand scheme of commerce.
Sometimes I wonder what today’s computers would be like if Microsoft had exerted that level of control over DOS and Windows. Forget downloading some random exe you found online, only approved programs can be installed. Would there have been a booming software industry? Would there be so much malware? Would Microsoft have allowed things like the first web browsers?
No comment on the merits of operating systems as walled gardens. I just find it fascinating (and difficult) to imagine how things might have been.
While in pc gaming, small indie studios can create entire new genres, like Factorio did, some which go on to grow and become giants themselves, like Minecraft.
www.xbox.com
The iPhone is largely a game machine as well, as some 70% of Apple's revenue from the App Store is from games.
I use my phone much more than my computer. Pretty much everything I used to do on computer I now do on my phone.
Tying that choice to the choice of hardware and operating system is anti-competitive.
Except you've just invented that arbitrary distinction.
You can't seriously suggest that a Microwave, Treadmill, Car, Calculator, Thermometer etc would all need to invest the ridiculous amounts of time/money in supporting users wishing to install alternate operating systems.
It just blows my mind a little when I imagine the walled garden approach being applied more broadly and earlier. E.g. if the creators of web browsers and search engines had all decided they want a cut of sales from websites. (I mean a cut of sales from organic search, not just ads. And all sales made using the browser.)
Those “what might have been” scenarios tend to make me less comfortable with my iPad and my Android phone. But I still have them because I like them.
Yes. Maybe even more so.
Because Apple has shown that having a safe, secure and profitable platform results in consumers choosing to spend more.
There was an 80s home computer like that: the TI 99/4A. Though even it didn't try to restrict BASIC programs.
That's one perspective. However I would argue that Apple is big enough, and the number of alternative platforms is small enough, that it is in the Public Interest that Apple be required by the government (aka, Us, collectively), to play by a different set of rules, rules that are decided by you know, Democracy, rather than by fiat.
If any company wants to disrupt the market, much like Apple itself did with the iPhone, there is literally nothing stopping them.
Edit:
> rules that are decided by you know, Democracy
At what point does democracy overreach? Is there one? Isn't it "democracy in defense of liberty"?
or not?
Maybe users would like them even more!
Apple's market share is different in the Netherlands, but strong regulations in one major market are all it takes to punch a hole in Apple's monopoly/duopoly position.
[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30195167
[2] https://www.counterpointresearch.com/q4-2021-us-smartphone-m...
Monopolies and uncompetitive markets (such as the mobile app store duopoly in many regions) result in deadweight loss,* which hinders the growth of the economy at large. Lawmakers in any country would do well to increase their country's economic efficiency by limiting the ability of companies with high market power to distort the market. Uncompetitive markets are not free markets.
> If we will not endure a king as a political power we should not endure a king over the production, transportation, and sale of any of the necessaries of life. -John Sherman
I hardly see how Apple, by taking 30% of revenue from substantially games, is king over the production or sale of any of the necessaries of life.
The Commerce Clause* of the U.S. constitution empowers lawmakers to regulate interstate commerce. This clause has enabled the passage of antitrust laws in the U.S., including the Sherman Antitrust Act and hopefully the upcoming Open App Markets Act.
First is the Apple Store, and you are correct you have no right to have your application on it.
Second is the hardware device I paid money for and exists in my pocket. There is no reasonable right that Apple says "Only we can put a program on it, and you will have no ability to run your own programs on it"
We live in a world where hardware makers of all kinds think we own them a permanent rent. It is a poor and expensive path to let them continue.
Don't get my comment wrong, I'd say the exact same thing about Google. It's a duopoly without any competition whatsoever.
> if any company can disrupt the smartphone market then the takings are all theirs
I don't think that's possible, even Microsoft failed at it with their massive funding.
Twitter as big as it is, is just a website across millions of others. In the mobile app market there is exactly two companies, Apple and Google, that's it.
Does Oppo or Samsung has any power when publishing an app? No? Then they are not part of this market.
https://www.apple.com/services/ https://www.apple.com/logic-pro/ https://www.apple.com/final-cut-pro/
Of course, these are not the bread and butter products.
I find it a bit pointless to separate their hardware and software. I know few people who run Windows or Linux on their Apple hardware. For me, Apple is primarily a products company that excels in fusing hardware and software together. They are increasingly expanding into services, too.
And similarly again there's none you can buy from Oppo and Samsung (I'll consider the Samsung store negligible in terms of market share).
Apple has consistently made more money from collecting their 30% tax than they have from manufacturing iPhones:
https://www.statista.com/statistics/263402/apples-iphone-rev...
https://www.statista.com/statistics/296226/annual-apple-app-...
Up to a point, no. Common Carrier laws have been around for a long time and had demonstrable benefits. Net neutrality means phone companies can't use their infrastructure however they like. AT&T wanted to just sit on their patent for the transistor but was pushed by the government into to licensing it to Motorola, TI, etc. There's no reason why similar regulations couldn't be applied to mobile app platforms.
The only fair resolution here is to force Apple to compete with other storefronts to prove that the value they provide is competitive. Apple could resolve this issue in a number of ways, but they've only chose to make the problem worse; that's why 34 states have come forward voicing their concern[0], and why EU regulators have been stepping in to block Apple's service expansions. They're the largest company in the world, and they deserve the most regulatory scrutiny for it; anything else is a failure of democracy and capitalism.
[0] https://finance.yahoo.com/news/1-dozens-u-states-apple-03470...
That's exactly right! Then fewer and poorer apps would be built on iOS, and users would notice, and they would migrate to other platforms. This has happened plenty of times before. Yes, Apple has a monopoly over the iPhone - it's an Apple product. Just like Sony have a monopoly over the PS5, and Samsung has a monopoly over the WF45R6300AV Front Load Washing Machine.
The only fair resolution would be to allow Apple to do whatever it wants with Apple devices. If everyone at Apple collectively lost their minds tomorrow, they would have every right to pull all apps from the App Store completely. They could shut down the platform. It's literally theirs in every sense of the word. They built it. They own it. They operate it. Just because people are concerned doesn't make socializing iPhones or the App Store in any way reasonable.
You're admitting yourself that there's not much value provided by the appstore to developers and they only use it because they have not choice (and I do agree with that being a developer myself)
It's called market abuse. Other companies have been broken before for abuse, that won't be the first one.
Apple does not make 30% profit off of total iPhone revenue, as they do still have to pay for development, infrastructure, and supporting staff.
They have a historical 38% margin on hardware, and just reported a 70% margin on first-party services.
The stores (iTunes Store, App Store, Books) may very well be their lowest margin divisions. Which would make sense, since they are selling other people's products.
You bought the hardware from Apple knowing exactly what restrictions they place on the hardware. You were knowledgeable about it and still decided to purchase the hardware.
I don't say this to be combative, I just don't see the difference between iOS and macOS in this regard.
Microsoft and Apple created XBox and iOS as closed platforms.
The difference seems to be the intent of the platform creator.
I'm pretty sure if Apple let people just download IPA files (like they do with APKs on Android), lots of developers would choose that over the walled garden.
They are not subsidized at all.
I've seen cheaper subscription services that also come with support, hosting and services.
If we think about how App Store can actually actively help us in promoting an app, without specifically buying ad in the App Store - which doesn't cost $99/year, it costs much more - it's not exactly appealing. Epic's CEO showed how bad the App Store search is in finding apps that users specifically search for: https://twitter.com/timsweeneyepic/status/101985252700794470...
And why wouldn't it be bad? Iphone users don't have any better.
---- Sony ----
https://www.retroreversing.com/official-playStation-devkit
> Perhaps the most ingenious move on Sony’s part was its decision to use the PC as a development platform, enabling it to call on the skills of huge number of developers. Licensees now receive a pair of full-length ISA cards that plug into a normal PC. These two cards contain the entire PlayStation chipset, as well as extra RAM and some logic to enable them to talk to the PC. ‘lt’s great having the system inside the PC,’ reckons Peter Molyneux. ‘With most bulky console development systems it sometimes feels like you’re surrounded by NASA control.’
> Such technology doesn’t come cheap, though. PlayStation developers need to cough up £ 12,000 for the full system (which Sony is adamant it doesn’t make money on), although all subsequent software tools and hardware upgrades are free.
---- Nintendo ----
https://developer.nintendo.com/faq
> Registering for the portal and downloading the tools is completely free. Also, if you plan to release a digital only title, you can use the IARC system to retrieve the age rating for no fee, which will allow you to publish in all the participating countries. All that is left is the cost of acquiring development hardware: you will find more information on this inside the portal.
https://developer.nintendo.com/home/development-for-nintendo...
> On 3/25/2021, the only Nintendo platform for which new development is possible will be Nintendo Switch.
> Development for Nintendo 3DS and Wii U will only be possible for those who have already purchased development hardware. Those who do not have development hardware will not be able to develop.
https://www.digitaltrends.com/gaming/nintendo-switch-dev-kit...
> At the Game Creators Conference 2017 in Osaka, Japan, Nintendo announced that Switch development kits would only cost 50,000 yen, or roughly $450.
> To put things in perspective, a PlayStation 3 development kit ran for $20,000 at launch.
---- Microsoft ----
https://developer.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft-store/regist...
> Individual accounts cost approximately $19 USD, and company accounts cost approximately $99 USD (the exact amounts may vary depending on your country or region). This is a one-time registration fee and no renewal is required.
(having some difficulty finding the specifics of the Xbox series X and series S dev kits)
--- --- ---
The point of this is that as a game device, the iPhone is in line with other developer programs and in some cases (Sony, looking at you) quite a bit less expensive.
This is a hilarious quote, especially with the way you highlighted "never giving apple a dime"
Because Apple doesn't give them a choice! Android developers can host their own apps, set up their own CDNs and downloading/updating infrastracture, pay journalists to review their apps etc.
This is like tying someone up in your basement and telling them to be grateful that they don't have to pay rent.
It's the logical move for them as they move into being a more service-oriented business and leverage all the devices they have in the world.
Google Chrome has been restricted from removing support for third party cookies (long gone in competing browsers) because they are also an advertising provider, and such a move has been deemed anticompetitive.[1]
Going more heavily into advertising would give more ammunition to defang anti-tracking protections being built into the platform with technical measures, as well as remove the ability to delist apps which work around those measures (ignoring user preference.)
They could pull off a mandate for SIWA because their competitors couldn't muster strong arguments it was costing them revenue. Such a mandate would be way harder too use some new in-app ad solution for impressions instead of third party solutions.
In-app ads, especially in games, are really scammy these days. Apple's solution wasn't to try to create a competing ad network, but to create a subscription game service that mandated all games be without DLC, IAP, or ads.
1: https://www.ft.com/content/b42db1db-8cfd-4247-90f5-3c6f934b5...
Users are already paying a premium for the privilege of buying an iOS device. And Apple knows that usually it will add some pressure on friends and family to have devices in the same family. Everything related to the app store is already paid for, the bandwidth is cheap, maintaining the service is cheap enough and covered by the device premium AND the developer subscription.
Whether the apps are free or paid for (with a big cut for Apple), the company is already making money. The tax on top of everything is just a way to make a lot of money and favor Apple services when compared to competitors in the same segment.
Pretty sure $99/year is more than a dime. It should be more than enough to pay for hosting the app. As for reviews, app developers don’t need those, so if Apple wants to review apps, they should also be the ones paying for it.
App Review alone takes hours per update and is done many times a year for apps. Even if a single Apple employee is involved, and even if they are paid something pathetic like $5 an hour, that $99 will be eaten up quickly from reviews alone.
My point is that it doesn’t add up; Apple likes to claim all these “costs” for “running” the App Store but there are gaping holes in their accounting unless you consider that not all developers are really equal here.
This has been the case since the beginning with mobile app stores so who knows how the distribution of paid vs ad-supported apps would be if this wasn't the case.
Historically they have not offered enough options here, such forbidding time-limited trials and not providing specific guidance for companies who wish to sell paid upgrades to new major versions. Apple's (arguably workable) solution here was entirely based on subscriptions.
That said, the ease of use of subscriptions and the high variability of billing amounts/periods has caused them to be the preferred mechanism for App Store scams.
Developers are literally subsidizing other developers, and it’s not necessarily the richest ones helping the poorest ones. Someone trying to make money on a $0.99 app is sacrificing more to Apple than Facebook does with their free app.
That’s why I find all these percentage and payment discussions weird: income is so insanely distributed that a lot of this literally does not apply to more than 80% of the stuff on the store. There are fundamental issues that need to be resolved too.