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Re:New Zealand's bid to become a dark sky nation by prideout on Friday February 04, 2022 @12:12PM (#30209549)
> artificial light is increasing globally by at least 2% every year

Um this is scary, isn't it? I want cities across the world to start switching over to low pressure sodium lamps. Yellow light for the win!

Re:New Zealand's bid to become a dark sky nation by throw0101a on Friday February 04, 2022 @01:19PM (#30210763)
Re:New Zealand's bid to become a dark sky nation by gtirloni on Friday February 04, 2022 @01:43PM (#30211108)
Yellow light is horrible though. It seems to make everything really dark in my neighborhood. Most parts of the city are switching to white LED lights here and they feel much better.
Re:New Zealand's bid to become a dark sky nation by gsruff on Friday February 04, 2022 @01:57PM (#30211295)
My experience has been exactly the opposite. My neighborhood went from yellow, sodium lighting to stark white LEDs a few years ago. The result, to my eyes, is that the contrast between what is lit by the street lights and surrounding dark areas is much higher. Perhaps what is needed is better diffusion onto the ground.
Re:New Zealand's bid to become a dark sky nation by novok on Friday February 04, 2022 @02:23PM (#30211629)
Or 2000K wide spectrum LED lamps vs doing stupid 6000K-5000K LED lamps at night and messing with human sleep cycles even more :/ Or causing nausea with the narrow spectrum yellow sodium lamps.
Re:New Zealand's bid to become a dark sky nation by adgjlsfhk1 on Friday February 04, 2022 @05:52PM (#30214590)
the problem with 2000k lights is that human night vision is much more sensitive to bluer light. you can use about half as much light while appearing as bright by moving to 3500k
Re:New Zealand's bid to become a dark sky nation by jjulius on Friday February 04, 2022 @04:00PM (#30213127)
>It seems to make everything really dark in my neighborhood.

When it comes to using lights that actually allow the night sky to be seen, that's kind of the point.

Re:New Zealand's bid to become a dark sky nation by zepearl on Friday February 04, 2022 @05:46PM (#30214509)
(out of context) It depends, I personally definitely like the yellow variant when it's foggy or snowing. On some days I'm very sensitive to white light (kind of blinds me), I'm currently guessing that it depends on how much I slept throughout the week?.

Here ( https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cf/Tokyo_To... ) is a pic of the Tokyo Tower in Japan => I read that apparently they often use yellow light during winter on snowy/foggy days to provide a sense of "warmth", during summer they tend to use more often white light => interesting.

Re:New Zealand's bid to become a dark sky nation by rmbyrro on Friday February 04, 2022 @02:12PM (#30211486)
That's true. Inside my home I prefer yellow light, but on the streets white light does work a lot better.

I know it's psychological, but white light also gives me a better sense of security walking at night on the street.

Re:New Zealand's bid to become a dark sky nation by micromacrofoot on Friday February 04, 2022 @02:34PM (#30211771)
There are some weird claims correlated with bluer light... that in public spaces they reduce crime or suicide rates. There's not a lot of actual data, but I've seen a lot of articles about it pop up... maybe it's just everyone's predilection towards easy fixes for complicated problems (like the too-rosy broken windows theory claims)

https://urbanlabs.uchicago.edu/projects/crime-lights-study

Re:New Zealand's bid to become a dark sky nation by throw0101a on Friday February 04, 2022 @02:40PM (#30211878)
Blue light is generally bad circadian rhythms (animals and humans):

* https://www.darksky.org/why-is-blue-light-at-night-bad/

Another study on crime and streetlights:

> A 2015 study published in the Journal of Epidemiology and Community Health found that streetlights don’t prevent accidents or crime, but do cost a lot of money. The researchers looked at data on road traffic collisions and crime in 62 local authorities in England and Wales and found that lighting had no effect, whether authorities had turned them off completely, dimmed them, turned them off at certain hours, or substituted low-power LED lamps.

* https://www.darksky.org/light-pollution/lighting-crime-and-s...

Re:New Zealand's bid to become a dark sky nation by micromacrofoot on Friday February 04, 2022 @04:02PM (#30213159)
So that 2015 study looks at light versus less light, but the claim I've seen circulated quite often is that the color of the light makes a difference. It seems dubious and has little backing information... and I guess my question is why it's become such a popular theory.
Re:New Zealand's bid to become a dark sky nation by jibbit on Friday February 04, 2022 @02:57PM (#30212131)
Blue light is preferred because it makes it difficult (impossible?) to Shoot Up. ‘Reduce crime & suicide’ is a euphemism.
Re:New Zealand's bid to become a dark sky nation by initplus on Friday February 04, 2022 @03:58PM (#30213099)
Modern LED street lighting is more directional than traditional sodium lamps, and results in less overall light pollution.
Re:New Zealand's bid to become a dark sky nation by el_nahual on Friday February 04, 2022 @05:26PM (#30214245)
Unfortunately it's also:

1. Much blue-er and so WAY worse for people's circadian rhythms 2. Much "sharper" in it's shadows, so you go from blindingly bright to pitch black without your eyes having a chance to adapt, making it unsafer, and making the shadows "darker" 3. Much harder to filter out for astronomers

It's only advantage is really that it's a lot more energy efficient, but it seems like white LEDs are a net decrease to human welfare as opposed to yellow sodium lamps.

Anecdotally, I used to live in front of a park that had yellow lamps and it was never an issue at night, but when they switched to white LEDs my entire house was illuminated with very blue, daylike-like light, really messing up my sleep.

Re:New Zealand's bid to become a dark sky nation by throw0101a on Friday February 04, 2022 @05:52PM (#30214591)
> 1. Much blue-er and so WAY worse for people's circadian rhythms

There is always garbage out there, regardless of product category. For streetlights you can get good products. Acuity's Autobahn Series ATB0:

> White Light: Correlated color temperature - 4000K, or optional 2700K, 3000K or 5000K, all 70 CRI

* https://img.acuitybrands.com/public-assets/catalog/122046/at...

* https://americanelectriclighting.acuitybrands.com/products/d...

* Via: https://www.darksky.org/our-work/lighting/lighting-for-indus...

> 2. Much "sharper" in it's shadows, so you go from blindingly bright to pitch black without your eyes having a chance to adapt, making it unsafer, and making the shadows "darker"

Lighting and crime (prevention) is debatable:

* https://www.darksky.org/light-pollution/lighting-crime-and-s...

Further, glare can blind people so as to not being able to see in darker areas:

* https://cescos.fau.edu/observatory/lightpol-security.html#Gl...

> 3. Much harder to filter out for astronomers

IMHO we can start worrying about this after we actually reduce light pollution. If we're at the point that astronomers can actually do useful work around large urban centres then let's start worrying about spectrum. As it stands they probably can't do much of anything now.

Re:New Zealand's bid to become a dark sky nation by scotty79 on Saturday February 05, 2022 @05:37AM (#30219835)
> Much blue-er and so WAY worse for people's circadian rhythms

Is there a solid research behind this? I know it was intensely shared, but it that real or is it just some idea with none to very limited backing like learning styles.

Re:New Zealand's bid to become a dark sky nation by khuey on Friday February 04, 2022 @01:11PM (#30210650)
Isn't low pressure sodium vapor a dead technology?
Re:New Zealand's bid to become a dark sky nation by imoverclocked on Friday February 04, 2022 @02:21PM (#30211598)
It's still used ... so, no?
Re:New Zealand's bid to become a dark sky nation by kunai on Friday February 04, 2022 @02:38PM (#30211856)
High pressure sodium is very common and still available. Low pressure sodium is extinct. The last LPS lamp was made in 2018 I believe.

It's a shame, because LPS was the gold standard for astronomy as the hyperspecific emission spectrum made it extremely easy to filter out for astrophotographers and telescope users

Re:New Zealand's bid to become a dark sky nation by adgjlsfhk1 on Friday February 04, 2022 @05:55PM (#30214627)
it's totally possible to make leds with similar properties, but it's generally but done because narrow spectrum lighting messes with color perception
Re:New Zealand's bid to become a dark sky nation by xupybd on Friday February 04, 2022 @06:29PM (#30215012)
Maybe something in the temperature you want but more efficient than sodium lamps?
Re:New Zealand's bid to become a dark sky nation by blue1 on Friday February 04, 2022 @01:39PM (#30211053)
I also like sodium lighting, especially the LP variety (despite the fact that all the mystic about orange light helping sleep has been basically debunked), but it is still light. We should decrease light pollution, not simply change its color.

Anyway, sodium lamps are being replaced by white LEDs.

Re:New Zealand's bid to become a dark sky nation by inciampati on Friday February 04, 2022 @01:43PM (#30211103)
Blue light doesn't suppress melatonin production? Got a reference for that? This was afaik a reproducible result.
Re:New Zealand's bid to become a dark sky nation by openknot on Friday February 04, 2022 @01:51PM (#30211220)
A Time article [0] reports on this paper [1] that reaches the same conclusion as the user's comment. However, it's a mice study, which is an important limitation because rodents are nocturnal, according to the Time reporter.

Meanwhile, Harvard Health [2] and WebMD [3] also both continue to report that blue light suppresses melatonin production for humans.

From Time: "Animal studies should always be taken with a grain of salt, as they often do not translate directly to human behavior. And there are additional caveats to this particular paper, says Dr. Cathy Goldstein, a sleep specialist at Michigan Medicine. The researchers looked specifically at cones in the animals’ eyes, which detect color, instead of melanopsin, which senses light and is central to the issue of melatonin secretion.

"They also kept light levels dim, regardless of color, which may not reflect the bright lights of electronics.

"And finally, though mice are frequently used in sleep research, Goldstein notes that since the rodents are nocturnal, they may respond differently to light than humans do. Taken together, Goldstein says these conditions mean the study’s results apply only to a very narrow set of circumstances and metrics. “For this to get extrapolated to saying ‘blue light at night isn’t bad for you’ is a little bit of an extension,” Goldstein says."

[0] https://time.com/5752454/blue-light-sleep/

[1] https://www.cell.com/current-biology/fulltext/S0960-9822(19)...

[2] https://www.health.harvard.edu/staying-healthy/blue-light-ha...

[3] https://www.webmd.com/sleep-disorders/sleep-blue-light