Where I live health systems are not overwhelmed. They were never overwhelmed even before the vaccines. They are occasionally under some pressure here and there like in a bad flu season. But I have to show a vax card to eat in a restaurant.

Is it possible your area is not overwhelmed because vaccinations are required? Here's a medical system overwhelmed in part because vaccination rate is (was) so low: https://www.idahostatesman.com/news/coronavirus/article25438...

I believe the vaccines are a big part of why they're not overwhelmed now during the Omicron wave. But we achieved the bulk of our vaccination rate before mandates.

I’m struggling to understand your point, since we agree that vaccines are working to prevent hospital overflow. Is the issue the method of enforcement (show a card to eat at a restaurant)? Because I can also agree that it’s a little roundabout.

So...let everyone else get vaccinated and fix it, not me?

What is the burden that would make this a problem? If the typical narrative is to be believed the unvaccinated are in a much worse position, facing the dangers of terrible disease and death!

If there was no burden then the person would get vaccinated. I personally don’t believe there is a burden but they must.

I think they believe it’s up to everyone to decide if there is a burden (and a risk), for themselves.

Is it possible this rock provides effective protection against tigers?

> Where I live health systems are not overwhelmed. They were never overwhelmed even before the vaccines.

This is an interesting statement.

Where I live, one hospital 30 minutes in one direction was never overwhelmed. In fact, they had to fire people because they were so empty due to cancelling all optional procedures.

Another hospital 30 minutes the other direction had to place patients in offices, conference rooms, and tents in the parking lot.

So I guess the health system where I live was overwhelmed. Or it wasn't. Depending upon who you asked and/or the narrative you wanted to convey.

Yes this is an important observation. The bad things all happen, but they’re usually not everywhere at once. One grocery store has empty shelves, another one is better stocked. Makes it easy to look credible saying everything is fine, or everything is terrible.

>the goalposts are exactly the same as they were two years ago

Shouldn't the politicians have made progress on this issue over the course of two years? At what point is it incompetence or corruption, if the billions being spent to fight the pandemic make zero discernable impact on the most critical issue?

>Shouldn't the politicians have made progress on this issue over the course of two years?

What do you mean? Should they should magically cause the number of doctors and hospitals to double inside two years?

>if the billions being spent to fight the pandemic make zero discernable impact on the most critical issue?

What leads you to believe that measures such as pushing vaccination haven't been having tremendous impact on that issue?

If we had started training more nurses at the beginning of this pandemic they would have graduated already.

Paying them more would also help...

You mean, training at home during lockdown?

>What leads you to believe that measures such as pushing vaccination haven't been having tremendous impact on that issue?

Do you believe that health care systems are currently overwhelmed by COVID?

In the United States, they are currently paying traveling nurses up to $10k per week. That is a 500% increase over normal pay. It's so bad that the Texas legislature and Congress are trying to limit interstate commerce and impose wage caps. These gigs are not hard to come by - anyone qualified can easily get them.

If that doesn't say "understaffed and overwhelmed", I'm not sure what evidence would.

You don't seem to have an "elective surgery" planned and then cancelled and postponed indefinitely, haven't you. Or a biopsy you cannot have for that worrisome mass down there... all because your local facilities are at capacity trying to keep no-vaxxers alive.

Good for you

I'm sorry, I don't understand the relation between me asking if a poster believes hospitals are overwhelmed, and your comment. I assume you believe hospital systems are still overwhelmed after two years, based on your sentiment.

Your comment is likely a rhetorical question. If you disagree to a statement please add some countering facts rather than simply challenging the statements with artifices and shifting the burden.

If the definition of "overwhelmed" is "past the point of functioning at all" then no. But if the definition is "at the point of functioning with an appreciably lower quality of care", then definitely yes in many areas (less so now, but more so a month ago).

Mainly in areas where many people haven't been vaccinated. Where I'm at, hospitals are fine.

> Should they should magically cause the number of doctors and hospitals to double inside two years?

It's not even magic. It just needs to be done. Find a way. There is an emergency. You don't just get to whine and complain that it is too hard. Your solution doesn't need to be perfect. Far from it, in fact. It just needs to patch the issue so we don't need to do restrictions of any kind.

Anybody that claims it is impossible to double or even quadruple healthcare capacity specifically for covid just isn't being creative about it enough. It's not magic. You just make it happen. You have almost infinite resources to do it even up to and including relaxing licensing laws or removing any other political or bureaucratic hurdle.

> You just make it happen.

Funny you're light on specifics. We talk about a situation where people die if it doesn't happen. So better propose something solid.

> almost infinite resources

Build hospital tents.

> relaxing licensing laws

Employ untrained people.

> removing any other political or bureaucratic hurdle

Eh that tends to happen, once you're in that triage situation.

Look you can't will medical care. You have to build it. It takes decades.

In most of the US life has been back to normal (give or take) for a year or more. A lot of people are still dying, but they are primarily higher risk individuals who have chosen not to get the vaccines that have been free and readily available for about a year.

So in terms of goalposts, what exactly is your goal? I'd like to see international travel normalize - it's maybe one of the few restrictions I still feel is constraining me - but there is little my government can do about that.

There's been plenty of progress on the issue of not overwhelming the healthcare system. In the areas with high vaccination rates. Most hospitalizations are by the unvaccinated. In those cases where unvaccinated overwhelm the system, that's not the politicians' fault except for the ones also spreading anti-vaxer misinformation.

They did make a lot of progress on it: they supported the extremely fast invention and roll out of vaccines that accomplish these goals. People have refused to take those vaccines and have refused to support politicians mandating that people take them. It is thus outside the hands of the politicians at this point, and in the hands of society at large.

Where I live (which may be different from the previous poster), the health system has not been overwhelmed yet. So guess that counts as success?

We didn't have to rig tents to use as hospitals, burn dead bodies on the street, or to pay exorbitant sums for oxygen on the black market, as it has happened in other countries.

And if you ask me, yes, that's worth billions, and a bit of self-discipline.

> don’t let the health care system get overwhelmed

So add more capacity. It's an emergency. Find a way to add it. Why are we into this two years and still have this problem? It's inexcusable at this point.

> So add more capacity. It's an emergency. Find a way to add it.

We did. The government deployed a floating hospital called the USNS Comfort to NYC to massively increase hospital capacity and... it basically just sat there unused for a month and then left after Governor Cuomo said it wasn't needed.

And then rather than celebrate Covid not being nearly as bad as forecast, these same governors doubled down and extended their stay at home orders.

It was that day I realized that none of this has a damn thing to do with science or data.