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Re:Adblocking people and non-adblocking people experience a ... by hattmall on Monday January 31, 2022 @12:59PM (#30151423)
One market where this has always been a problem is tools. So almost 20 years ago we were told in shop class that the industry magazines and reviews were basically all paid for by manufacturers. The solution we learned was to always buy the cheapest option first. If it breaks or fails to meet your needs understand how and why and then move on to a more costly tool that you can demonstrate is better in the specific way you need it to be. Of course thats not always practical or feasible but for the majority of items it really is.
Re:Adblocking people and non-adblocking people experience a ... by version_five on Monday January 31, 2022 @01:25PM (#30151886)
Just an aside as a former carpenter:

Battery powered hand tool systems are a big cost now, especially that brushless motor have got so good. Its important to think about them as a system, like will replacement batteries still exist in 2 years, can more tools work with the same battery, etc. That makes it harder to try something and see how good it is. I agree with you re many tools though. For tools I'd recommend talking to someone who works with them daily to get a real opinion, and wouldn't trust anything I read

Re:Adblocking people and non-adblocking people experience a ... by aksss on Monday January 31, 2022 @02:05PM (#30152575)
Batteries are a point of vendor lock-in and forced obsolescence. Not saying modern tech isn’t great, but young me who spent all that money tooling up with cordless has changed to older me who honestly prefers corded or hosed (or even ICE) tools when the application allows for it, not just for the longevity of the tool but the power (amps/psi), lighter weight, and availability of service (no issues with charging, temperature problems, etc) during a job.
Re:Adblocking people and non-adblocking people experience a ... by cgriswald on Monday January 31, 2022 @02:14PM (#30152692)
Can anyone explain why such systems are so seemingly successful? I find it surprising. It seems great to create vendor lock-in, but they also change the form factor frequently enough that you have to replace your entire system in order to benefit from it being a system anyway; at which point you might change vendors. It feels like the first vendor that stops changing form factor wins; but they all still keep changing them.

My best guess is that by doing this they can raise margins on some items by making them lower quality or by charging more than they could otherwise get away with. If a brand has a great tool X, you might buy their lousy tool Y just to be able to use the same chargers and batteries.

For me, anyway, as a non-carpenter, I just end up with an annoying bespoke set of chargers and batteries.

Re:Adblocking people and non-adblocking people experience a ... by bluGill on Monday January 31, 2022 @02:29PM (#30152948)
The major brands do not change formats often. The store brands do change formats though. By Milwaukee or Dewalt and you will have tools and parts for many years, or even Ryobi if you want to save a penny. (There are others, just the 3 that come to mind).

The thing about their system is the whole only works so long as they keep you locked in. Once you make a choice you are locked into that choice and won't be looking at alternatives - but if they change batteries you suddenly are faced with the loss of your entire investment and so you are likely to look at the competition and might buy something else. That makes changing battery formats less attractive to the big brands trying to get people who buy a lot of tools.

The store brands have a different motivation: they know you won't be buying them again anyway, so they don't care. Changing formats means they can come up with some tiny reason the new one is better and try to sell the next customer on how their new battery is better.

If you are not a buying a lot of tools your plan isn't bad, just throw away the tools when the batteries die in 10 years. The tiny reasons some battery is better - over 10 years might add up to something slightly better than before anyway.

Re:Adblocking people and non-adblocking people experience a ... by sdoering on Tuesday February 01, 2022 @02:41AM (#30159657)
When my SO and I were renovating our home we followed some advice like the ones in this thread. First we had relatively cheap power tools. One the one hand early on we could not easily afford to invest more and also we wanted to learn what we really needed.

After the first ones broke we asked around and received only three recommended brands. DeWalt, Makita or the Blue Bosch line (in Germany). We went for DeWalt and never looked back. The power cells haven't changed in form or fitting in the years since and we could not be happier with performance and durability.

It is like deciding on a DSLR system. Once you are invested into Canon, Nikon, Sony or the likes with lenses and accessories you are locked in but also you learn to really know your tools and imho receive a productivity boost.

For example - whenever I am with other people and need to use their tools, I have to look at them and see how they work, what buttons/knobs are where and so on. With my DeWalt tools this is already muscle memory and the work as an extension of my arm - my brain uses them as if they were a part of me. This let's me focus more on the task I want to perform, not on the tool.

Re:Adblocking people and non-adblocking people experience a ... by stjohnswarts on Monday January 31, 2022 @03:34PM (#30153887)
Never leave out Makita if mentioning electric tools :)
Re:Adblocking people and non-adblocking people experience a ... by bombcar on Monday January 31, 2022 @06:23PM (#30156272)
Milwaukee is still selling their nicad batteries, if you were in that platform before. The big brands (and this includes Ryobi, etc) do not change their batteries much at all.

The smaller brands like Craftsman and "store brands" seem to change relatively randomly.

Re:Adblocking people and non-adblocking people experience a ... by Terretta on Monday January 31, 2022 @01:19PM (#30151780)
For a lot of people "cheapest tool first" is their goto (and not for the principled reason you shared).

So eventually the cheapest tool makers get enough money to buy up the differentiated quality makers for their logo with enough branding power to price discriminate, and slap it on products from the same cheap factory line.

Then, ugh.

Re:Adblocking people and non-adblocking people experience a ... by aksss on Monday January 31, 2022 @01:43PM (#30152199)
A lot of times the price differential is such that I can buy two or three of item x for the price of a single premium version. If you seldom use the tool and it isn’t getting handled a lot (transportation, etc), this is the way. You can replace the item and still come out ahead.

There’s also that motto of “I’m too poor to buy it twice”, which comes into play when item y has a price like 75% of the premium version and/or you know the tool will have some rough travel and high demand, or time lost from outage isn’t acceptable. Then just spend the money on known-solid brands.

Reviews are an area where I really value specialized forums more than social media or blogs or industry publications.

In all cases with reviews even when no monetization involved, there can be a bandwagon mentality for brands and also people convincing themselves the high price they paid matters for something (even though it may not).

Re:Adblocking people and non-adblocking people experience a ... by 9dev on Monday January 31, 2022 @01:06PM (#30151527)
This strategy is smarter than it sounds at first. If you don't have any obvious criteria for comparison available, failing fast and iterating on that is a way to come up with criteria by yourself.
Re:Adblocking people and non-adblocking people experience a ... by kuboble on Monday January 31, 2022 @02:08PM (#30152627)
It requires a strong character to throw away things when they don't work well. I bought the cheapest drilling machine and it is so bad I end up borrowing one from a neighbor when I need to drill something. But I can't make myself to throw away the useless one.
Re:Adblocking people and non-adblocking people experience a ... by ratww on Monday January 31, 2022 @02:30PM (#30152973)
I’m also unable to throw things away, but I do give things away or sell at a fraction very often. It’s also a fun past time. I don’t have anything useless at home anymore.
Re:Adblocking people and non-adblocking people experience a ... by annoyingnoob on Monday January 31, 2022 @03:13PM (#30153603)
Where I live, Craigslist works really well for this situation - someone will take it away for free for sure and you might even be able to get something for it.
Re:Adblocking people and non-adblocking people experience a ... by stjohnswarts on Monday January 31, 2022 @03:37PM (#30153935)
This is what I do. I just put in "first email I get gets it" people will be at your house in an house or less to grab it. I'm always honest like "The bearings seem a little wobbly to me, but if you want it, it's yours if you can show up and pick it up today"
Re:Adblocking people and non-adblocking people experience a ... by idiotsecant on Monday January 31, 2022 @01:14PM (#30151690)
Sometimes the cost for a quality piece of gear is incremental though, so you buy a harbor freight thingamajig then it breaks so you buy the Milwaukee thingamajigfor twice the price, for a total of 300% of the cost of the original thing. You could have saved 30% in that case by just buying the good thing in the first place.
Re:Adblocking people and non-adblocking people experience a ... by munk-a on Monday January 31, 2022 @01:30PM (#30151965)
Alternatively this thingamajig is so rarely used that you buy the harbor freight version and use it a few times a year. It becomes a life long tool and you save a fair bit of the price.

The second time you buy a type of tool you definitely need to go for quality, the first time though, are you certain you're actually going to be constantly using that tool?

Re:Adblocking people and non-adblocking people experience a ... by aksss on Monday January 31, 2022 @01:53PM (#30152384)
The only exception to watch out for is when buying a crappy version of x will negatively color your new experiences with an activity. Tools meant for precision but the cheap versions are plastic rattle traps that get out of calibration/alignment from basic use can be extremely frustrating to someone just getting started in an activity. The user may throw their hands up and quit whereas a good quality tool would have made their new hobby more enjoyable/accessible (e.g. no, it’s not you, you’re just fighting a really crappy tool every step of the way). Again, tasks/activities that require repeatable precision come to mind here.
Re:Adblocking people and non-adblocking people experience a ... by bbarn on Monday January 31, 2022 @01:28PM (#30151925)
I'd argue then that the level of usage dictated a better one. Most people don't actually use tools to failure. I've owned edging tools, routers, sanders, even a small metal lathe from Harbor freight that have handled 10+ years of very occasional use just fine. If you're using things so much that they fail, yes, buy a more quality version. If it fails on the first use, Harbor freight happens to have a very generous return / exchange policy within the first 30 days.
Re:Adblocking people and non-adblocking people experience a ... by wyre on Monday January 31, 2022 @03:21PM (#30153705)
Harbor Freight also has lifetime warranties on many of their products.
Re:Adblocking people and non-adblocking people experience a ... by ipaddr on Monday January 31, 2022 @01:24PM (#30151862)
You risk saving 100% to save 30%.
Re:Adblocking people and non-adblocking people experience a ... by actually_a_dog on Monday January 31, 2022 @02:44PM (#30153194)
You have to expect that this will happen a certain amount of the time when you use the "buy the cheapest tool" strategy. Of course, really, it's not "buy the cheapest tool"; it's "buy the cheapest tool that could possibly work," sort of like "do the simplest thing that could possibly work" in agile.

If the tool breaks quickly, that's not usually a terrible outcome. Most companies have at least a 90 day limited warranty you could take advantage of in that case. In many cases, you can even just return the damn thing to the store where you bought it and get a refund or exchange for a better tool. This, of course, assumes that the reason you needed the thing in the first place isn't incredibly time-sensitive, but, usually, it works out fine.

Of course, if it lasts forever, then, great! But, in the intermediate scenario, where you encounter the limitation of the tool a little ways down the road, that's actually where this strategy shines, because you get a chance to upgrade to a better tool without wasting a ton of money on top of the line equipment right away. I know photographers who do this with lenses all the time: they'll rent a new lens for a week or something, go out and shoot it to see how it really works, and then determine whether they want to commit to it. $100 spent on a lens rental has saved some of my friends more than $1000 on glass they don't need. And, if they ultimately do end up buying the lens, that $100 is $100 well spent for peace of mind that they will actually get the use out of the thing that they actually bought it for. And, I think the Harbor Freight strategy makes a lot more sense if you view the initial purchase from HF as possibly a long term rental.

Now, there is that one caveat that you need to buy "the cheapest tool that could possibly work." If you're a professional machinist, for instance, don't go buying a $5 caliper and thinking that will be good. Go and spend the $150 or whatever on a Mitutoyo instrument to begin with, because you know damn well you will need it. This is just an example I pulled from personal experience, as I needed a caliper for hobby purposes a few years ago and ended up looking at things ranging from that $5 caliper on up to precision instruments. For my purposes, the low end is totally fine, because I don't need accuracy better than 0.1mm, and it's not my professional livelihood on the line. But, if you're a professional, never trust an instrument that doesn't come with a certificate of calibration.

I've also used this strategy with good success on photography equipment, myself. I wanted a DSLR camera I could use to take pictures for hobby purposes, mostly intended for web use. I did a little research and decided that a used Nikon D3400 was for me. So, I went to eBay, found one that only had about 1200 clicks on the shutter that came with the 18-55 kit lens and the original box for $325 (tax and shipping included), and I bought it. I augmented that with a used 90mm Tamron macro lens for under $150 and I was good to go.

It has one or two small limitations that either only come into play outside of the original use case I had in mind, or which aren't really annoying enough to mention, but, for the most part, it's been a spectacular camera that I spent under $500 on, as opposed to spending $1000 on a Z50 (or, you know, gone really crazy and gotten a D850 or a Z9), and then another $900 on a new Nikon 105mm macro lens, but, for my purposes, I can take photos that are 95% as good as what I could ultimately produce with the more expensive equipment, but, I can legitimately say this strategy has saved me over $1000.

I did exactly the same thing when I started learning to play the cello. A new, carved wooden cello suitable for a student probably runs around $2000-2500, and that doesn't necessarily include a decent bow. This is also an instrument one will certainly grow out of if one continues playing. I did my research and went out and bought a Yamaha electric for $3000 and went to a cello shop to try out bows, ending up with a nice $1200 bow. I ended up with an instrument I'll never outplay and a bow that will last me years. The alternative would have probably been a much less playable bow and instrument, or a lot more money expended.

Re:Adblocking people and non-adblocking people experience a ... by NovaS1X on Monday January 31, 2022 @01:04PM (#30151497)
This is why I really appreciate YT channels like Project Farm.
Re:Adblocking people and non-adblocking people experience a ... by Baeocystin on Monday January 31, 2022 @01:20PM (#30151796)
That guy gives masterclasses on fast, efficient data presentation with every video. I really appreciate his approach.
Re:Adblocking people and non-adblocking people experience a ... by reeddavid on Monday January 31, 2022 @04:21PM (#30154581)
I've noticed a problem when I try to buy tools (especially automotive tools): The only tools available locally are cheap and crappy. I know they are crappy because half the reviews state that it didn't even work once.

But I can't pay more to get a higher quality version of the tool, because the store doesn't even bother stocking a higher quality version.

If I plan ahead, I can shop online and find a quality tool. But what I really want is the option to buy a quality tool during a weekend project.

Re:Adblocking people and non-adblocking people experience a ... by quercusa on Monday January 31, 2022 @01:10PM (#30151620)
Harbor Freight is there for you!
Re:Adblocking people and non-adblocking people experience a ... by ineedasername on Monday January 31, 2022 @03:06PM (#30153516)
This is why (in the US) I buy what I can from Harbor Freight. Unless it's something that can have critical safety issues if things go bad.
Re:Adblocking people and non-adblocking people experience a ... by dustymcp on Monday January 31, 2022 @02:31PM (#30152997)
This is how my sad thought me to buy tools just seems insane to go expensive cause best every time..
Re:Adblocking people and non-adblocking people experience a ... by mindslight on Monday January 31, 2022 @01:28PM (#30151916)
In the days of Amazon (aka Aliexpress) that advice has to become more nuanced though. You still need a baseline of fitness-for-purpose rather than one-click buying a GENSYM Cordless Drill and thinking it might possibly suffice. And the traditional go-to of (brick and mortar curated) Harbor Fright has become somewhat expensive thanks to Trump's inflation, as well as increasing margins due to popularity (see also: Monoprice).

There's also just quality of life. As a DIYer I'm not particularly concerned about wearing out tools. But still I might want to pay more for better ergonomics, ecosystem compatibility, power, tolerances, or other non-longevity qualities, rather than being stuck with an adequate but suboptimal tool that gets the job done while bothering me.

Re:Adblocking people and non-adblocking people experience a ... by Geezus-42 on Monday January 31, 2022 @02:00PM (#30152505)
Buy the one from Harbor Freight, return it when it breaks.
Re:Adblocking people and non-adblocking people experience a ... by bbarn on Monday January 31, 2022 @01:25PM (#30151882)
Harbor Freight's "low quality" tools will work for a great many average home owners doing some upgrading or light work. We absolutely fall into the trap of wanting the best thing ever, but how many people actually need the top of the line Milwaukee or Makita brand biscuit joiner for the 2 tables they ever make at 200$, vs the Harbor Freight one at 60 that you can probably find a coupon for to make it 45-50?

On that note though, an even worse practice is when a brand achieves notoriety for quality and starts making "light" versions of their tools. One example of this before they went belly up was Craftsman making nearly identical looking "Sears" brand that weren't covered by the craftsman warranty. Bosch also did this with pimping out their brand name to extend to rather crappy home appliances here in the EU. Black and Decker was synonymous with reliability in the early 80s, and I still have some jigsaws and circular saws from my dad that work great from that era, but anything from them now is arguably worse than the cheapest things you can buy at Harbor Freight.

Re:Adblocking people and non-adblocking people experience a ... by barrkel on Monday January 31, 2022 @01:36PM (#30152070)
I'm sure a bunch of executives made nice bonuses selling the brand value down the river, though.

It's an incentive problem. It's extremely difficult to get incentives aligned over a timeline longer than a few years that it might take for options or stock to vest or clawbacks to expire.

Re:Adblocking people and non-adblocking people experience a ... by brewdad on Monday January 31, 2022 @01:43PM (#30152183)
I managed to get a 48" flex bit stuck in my wall when I was running ethernet last summer. Since it was the last hole I needed and it only cost me $9 at Harbor Freight, I left it in the wall and called it good. The $90 bit from Home Depot probably would have meant removing a bunch of drywall and then having to patch it.

The batteries on my ~20 year old Craftsman cordless drill are finally getting to the point where they won't hold a charge. I'll probably have to bite the bullet and wade into the mess of "brand-name" tools the next time I have a significant project.

Re:Adblocking people and non-adblocking people experience a ... by secabeen on Monday January 31, 2022 @01:54PM (#30152391)
For a replacement like that, it's probably worth watching for Father's Day and other sales. With cordless tools, you're really buying into a battery accessory system, and it's good to know what tools are available for the battery you select.
Re:Adblocking people and non-adblocking people experience a ... by bbarn on Monday January 31, 2022 @02:45PM (#30153221)
100%. One of the areas I will spend more on is cordless tools. The modern Dewalt stuff has built me a deck and a campervan, and when it comes to lawn tools the E-go stuff has been fantastic. Both of those definitely locked me into a "system" as you say but both also covered just about any future use case I would have.
Re:Adblocking people and non-adblocking people experience a ... by sidewndr46 on Monday January 31, 2022 @02:29PM (#30152953)
I have a 72 inch drill bit "stored" up in my attic amongst the rafters. There was one particular location where I really needed it at that time, so I just left it up there. I think it costs $15 off Amazon. If I never need it again, I figure I can deal with the hassle of getting it down from the attic.
Re:Adblocking people and non-adblocking people experience a ... by Vrondi on Monday January 31, 2022 @03:14PM (#30153610)
For your 20 year old Craftsman, seriously look around for aftermarket replacement batteries. You might find them out there for pretty cheap. I did for my DeWalt.
Re:Adblocking people and non-adblocking people experience a ... by jasonwatkinspdx on Tuesday February 01, 2022 @03:07AM (#30159826)
Man, you said it about B&D. My family owned a small business, now bankrupt. One of the things my dad did to try to save it was start selling tools retail. He's very brand loyal, and of an older generation, so he was convinced selling B&D in the 90s was the way to go. The tools were such plastic crap. Meanwhile we had mid century era versions of the same tools in the workshop at home that were still going strong. Obviously my dad's idea didn't work. We got creamed by big box stores and the brands they hawk. And honestly rightfully so.

But anyhow, what happened with B&D has happened to so many previous quality brands. It's really frustrating to me.